[Ben2749]

Sorry I can't be more specific; I'm not very knowledgeable about this sort of thing.

But I'm looking for one where transferring the content to a computer easy and fast. I currently have one that records to small tapes, and it transfers to computer in real-time (which is way too long) and is awkward and difficult.

Preferably, I'd like one that is simple to use, has a fairly decent zoom, has a good computer playback/transfer program, and has an easy process for transferring stuff to DVD (and if it can transfer to both PAL and NTSC DVD's, all the better, but PAL is priority).

Also, being able to take good quality photos is nice, but that would be a bonus, as I already have a good digital camera (but I'm on the lookout for anything that might take better quality pictures).

As for price, I don't want to break the bank (I'm not going to blow thousands on some top of the line model), so Hi-Def is probably out of the question, but at the same time, I don't want it to be too cheap. You get what you pay for, after all, and I want something better than my current camcorder.

Any suggestions, please?

[redsox_mark]

Given your statements about budget etc let's assume we are going with Standard Def.

Any of the HDD or flash memory card models will meet your requirements. The software they come with varies and generally isn't that great, but you can copy clips to the PC just by simply copying the files. There are lots of editing programs (maybe one you already have) which you can use for creating DVDs.

I'd avoid the bottom of the range HDD models, their video quality isn't that good.

A couple to consider are the Sony SR190 HDD cam... or the Panasonic SD150 memory based one (see recent posts by rhubarb).

[rhubarbe]

I have played with the predecessor to that Sony, the DSC-SR90e and that was fine (if a tad bulky for my taste).

The SDR-S150 was and is still a good alternative. Last year when SD cards were still expensive I paid £45 for a 2GB SD card that would store 25 minutes at highest quality. This week I have just bought 2 x 8GB Transcend SDHC Class 6 cards from the USA at £45 each delivered (hopefully tomorrow) and £45 for an Integral SDHC 8GB Class 6 from here in UK. Together with the 2 x 2GB SD cards I have, I should get 350 minutes video at the highest quality, or very nearly six hours. I was going to take a PSU (Portable Storage Unit) on holiday with me but I think that I'll have enough storage on the cards I have without needing to bother with one.

[jetinder]

Try the following
:-
http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/128197/#Alternatives

[rhubarbe]

Yuk. Surely you're not recommending that are you, jetinder?

[redsox_mark]

That JVC is ok for the money... but the OP said he already has one which "records to small tapes" which I assume is miniDV.

[rhubarbe]

I took it that he wanted something that is easier to get on to a PC than MiniDV and without the budget to go HD, which to me indicated SD HDD or solid state.

One of the Sony HDD cams I would have said (I'm not a fan of the lower end JVC's).

[redsox_mark]

Yes I agree, he's looking for something other than tape.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Yuk. Surely you're not recommending that are you, jetinder?

Jetinder loves his JVC, You swear by your ( rather nice) Panny... I just ..!

As an aside rhubarbe, apart from the SDR S-150, Is there any other HDD or SD card camcorder you rate high which are near the OPs budget? ( Less than the HD models!)
and to the OP
I'm totally with you on the awkwardness of real time transfer with tape ( especially if you have it and it sucks ( to you), As you state no budget it is true that you will get what you pay for and are very wisely avoiding "bottom end" models
Im not (at all) fan of the Sanyo Xacti range but there are those who swear by them

[rhubarbe]

Well, there's this one:

http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/showp...FRkJEAod836FSQ

£385 at Purelygadgets. That has to be a great price. I think it has the same lens and optics as the SDR-S150 (wot I luv) but it's cheaper and it has a HDD too.

There are a few Sony SD HDD cams but I don't know much about SD HDD cams.

Flash memory cams are limited to Aiptek (the new HD one isn't at all bad, has a great h.264 codec but no image stabilisation at all) and the Xactis, which I'd love to love but can't. But wait maybe the brand new one:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...rder-33264.htm

Looks good but CCI is knocking it because it can't stand up on its own and it'll be no good for guys with big hands, I ask you. Honestly, CCI does itself no favours.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Well, there's this one:

http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/showp...FRkJEAod836FSQ

£385 at Purelygadgets. That has to be a great price. I think it has the same lens and optics as the SDR-S150 (wot I luv) but it's cheaper and it has a HDD too.

There are a few Sony SD HDD cams but I don't know much about SD HDD cams.

Flash memory cams are limited to Aiptek (the new HD one isn't at all bad, has a great h.264 codec but no image stabilisation at all) and the Xactis, which I'd love to love but can't. But wait maybe the brand new one:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...rder-33264.htm

Looks good but CCI is knocking it because it can't stand up on its own and it'll be no good for guys with big hands, I ask you. Honestly, CCI does itself no favours.

Hmm.. well the OP has a few to look thru. I guess we agree on one thing.. the technology is in a state of flux and to some of us , the future direction (especially what to do with the footage) is not as clear as mini DV to DVD was

[rhubarbe]

I'd take MiniDV over DVD any day. I personally think that DVD is flawed. Your archive copy can't be regarded as permanent and if after taking your footage your DVD fails to finalise you;ll end up looking a bit silly.

Out of everything I have seen so far I like the HV10 footage best. If only the drive hadn't been so noisy. I know I could have put music on the clips but my video isn't about musical backgrounds but rather my wife doing an Alan Whicker.

No, that wasn't rhyming slang.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

No, that wasn't rhyming slang.

Are you absolutely sure about that???? Im enjoying a nightcap as I type

[rhubarbe]

Me too.

[Ben2749]

Thank you very much for your replies everybody.

My current camcorder is a JVC GR-D372U. I've barely used it, as the awkward and time-consuming process of transferring content to a computer has really put me off.

I should be a bit more specific about what exactly I want to do with a new camcorder, as it seems there are quite a few types, some of which are better at doing different things (I just read this article).

I don't really want to do anything fancy. No special effects, adding words, or the like. Here's a list of what I want it to do:


- Transfer content to my computer fast and easily (I'm easily confused by programs with lots of menus/functions).

- Has an easy to understand interface on the camcorder itself (see above)

- Cut certain segments and piece together videos however I like via my computer.

- Transfer content to DVD (definitely PAL, but NTSC as well would be a nice bonus).

- Have a fairly decent battery life/good storage space if Harddrive (nothing out of this world, but enough to let me use it a lot over the course of a day).

- Can take photos (but this isn't necessary, just a nice bonus)


Having read the above article, I'm leaning towards Recordable DVD or HDD. Mostly HDD though, as it sounds like the simplest to use, and quickest to transfer to computer.

Which would you recommend to me, and what is a good model?

[rhubarbe]

What's your budget?

[Ben2749]

Hmm. I guess around £300-£400. But even then, it would have to be really good and easy to use to warrant that.

[redsox_mark]

The main (only?) advantage of a DVD camcorder is you don't need to involve a PC at all, simply shoot, finalise the disc, and pop it in a DVD player. But having said that there can be issues with media compatability and reliability; I prefer HDD or flash memory. Given that you are happy to use a PC to choose your bits HDD seems better for you.

The problem is that sub £400 the quality generally isn't that good. The JVC and Sony models in this price range are underwhelming. Maybe that Panasonic H250; I've not seen it in action but if it is similar to the SD150 it is good value at that price. Or for a bit more the Sony SR190 as I previously suggested.

[senu]

Perhaps Ill be less subtle..

Give the recordable DVDs a wide berth for the reasons stated above.. Editing is a pain, DVDs can be very undependable for reliability of playback ( and also you can never guarantee compatibility) and you even risk losing the actual recording itself if there is a hitch with "finalising". I'm not slagging them off but it is the format, not the camcorder technology that is at fault
It may be that the commercial DVDs are more robust ( if kept well) bit I wouldn't extend any such faith to the recordable variety

If you get an HDD or an SD model ( rhubarbes fave.) expect to spend £450-600 for a model which will meet or surpass the image quality of your MiniDV model
the problem is that by the time you get to that price range, Your ( understandable ) disenchantment with tape means you are missing out on some more affordable HD models or impressive SD models too

[rhubarbe]

It occurs to me that you may be missing out on one of the bargains of the century if you don;t try the Canon HV10. It's picture is superb, it's HDVand yes, it uses tape. If you can find a shop that has one that you can demo, go along and demo it. I had one; loved the image quality, loved the form factor, couldn't live with the motor noise, but you might be lucky and get a quieter one. If you don't mind buying on eBay you can get them to £400 and up, new and sealed (though the HV10 box doesn't have a seal so how you are supposed to tell I have no idea). Even the Canon shop sells refurbs on eBay that seem to go for £435.

Other than that, in your price range, the two Panasonics I mentioned before, or the Sony that Mark mentioned.

There is some footage to download from my old SDR-S150 in this thread (new SDR-S150 due today):

Are there any decent *compact* (pocket-friendly) minidv camcorders around?

Bear in mind that I was a novice and had only had the thing a week when I took that footage so the skill set is trainee ex pit-pony level.

[redsox_mark]

I couldn't agree more (I'm often the one trying to convince folks that tape isn't such as bad thing)... but in this case the whole reason Ben wants to upgrade is "I currently have one that records to small tapes, and it transfers to computer in real-time (which is way too long) and is awkward and difficult."

Personally I don't see real time capture as an issue.. but I do detailed editing. So for me the capture time is small compared to the time I spend editing my video. You can either watch the video as it captures (making notes on what to edit), or you can do something else at the same time. But I can see if you want to do simple edits and know exactly which clips you want, a "file based" transfer like from a HDD or SD card based cam is desirable.

[Ben2749]

If I can't get a good HDD camcorder for less than £400, then so be it; I'll have to up my budget.

What about £400-£500? Surely one wouldn't cost more than that? I thought £500 was the point where they become Hi-Def.

[rhubarbe]

My SDR-S150 just arrived. Put it on charge and tried the "Integral" 8GB SDHC card bought the other day (the manual says it'll only take a 4GB card), and what do you know, it works (I know there is a 4GB file size limit in FAT32).

I usually just use the SP mode and the little cam is telling me that in that mode I have 3hrs 45mins recording time remaining on the SDHC card. At the end of 3hrs 45minutes I'll take out the card and put in another one.

Nice one.

Why would one need a heavy HDD based cam when this tiny thing (250g) takes such good video and you just pop the SD card into your PC or laptop card reader?

Shame the "1800mAH" batteries didn't show up from Germany.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Ben2749

If I can't get a good HDD camcorder for less than £400, then so be it; I'll have to up my budget.

What about £400-£500? Surely one wouldn't cost more than that? I thought £500 was the point where they become Hi-Def.

The Sony SR190 I suggested is available for around £450.
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/pl/8-86...Prices?q=sr190

I think the Panasonic S150 which rhubarbe got is also in that budget, but only just (from pricerunner search). But I think he said it was £420 ordered from Germany.
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/pl/8-65...Compare-Prices

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

I'd take MiniDV over DVD any day. I personally think that DVD is flawed. Your archive copy can't be regarded as permanent and if after taking your footage your DVD fails to finalise you;ll end up looking a bit silly.

Out of everything I have seen so far I like the HV10 footage best. If only the drive hadn't been so noisy. I know I could have put music on the clips but my video isn't about musical backgrounds but rather my wife doing an Alan Whicker.

No, that wasn't rhyming slang.

i dont think dvd is flawed but i would not burn on to a pc,so a dvd cam would be of little use as the edited video would need to go on tape before copying.

[rhubarbe]

My experience of even three year old DVDs failing and ending up as coasters has clouded my judgement in this regard I am afraid. Given that you are saying you'd archive back to tape, I don't see you as a fan, either.

The only plus that I can see for them is that (if you successfully finalise) you can just take the DVD out of the cam and bung it into the DVD player, warts and all.

It just doesn't blow my frock up.

SDR-S150 from http://www.computeruniverse.net/ is 598 Euros plus 31 Euros UPS shipping (mine took 2 days). You get a no quibble 2 year warranty, and when they took back my HV10 they even paid the return shipping and credited me the whole lot including the original shipping. I have no bad word to say about these guys and they speak excellent English, reply speedily to email and even take credit cards and Paypal. I think shipping is about 10 Euros cheaper if you pay by Paypal.

[redsox_mark]

I too would say DVD camcorders are "flawed", simply because recordable DVD is not reliable enough.

I burn lots of DVDs... both from PC and set top DVD recorder. I carefully select the best hardware, software, and discs I can get. And with this, most of the time I can succesfully create a disc. But still, maybe 1-2% of the time I'll get a bad disc and it will fail. For me that's no big deal as they are cheap and I create another one.

But if you are using a DVD camcorder to shoot some once in a lifetime event, and you have a bad disc and it fails to finalise, you are stuck. And we've seen posts where people have had just this experience.

[Ben2749]

OK, DVD is out of the question then. So it comes down to HDD or SD cards. Which do you think is better? They sound nearly identical, but I thought that the SD camcorders generally cost more?

[redsox_mark]

No clear winner... mostly depends on comparing specific models.. though all being equal I'd prefer SD card based as:

- I like the idea of no moving parts in the recording process.
- HDDs can fail
- You can always buy more SD cards to increase capacity, can't easily upgrade your HDD.

In favour of HDD you can shoot for a longer time with no need to change media, and they tend to be a bit cheaper (especially if you add in the price of the memory cards).

Today there are far more HDD cams available than memory card based ones, but that is changing.

If we compare the Panasonic SD150 (SD card) and the Sony SR190 (HDD), in terms of overall quality they are pretty close. Check out the comparison section of this SD150 review
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Conclusion.htm
and the comparison vs. the SR100... which is the US version of the SR90 which the SR190 replaced. Replace SR100 with SR190 and that conclusion is valid - "This one is a draw with each camcorder offering a decent array of features "

[rhubarbe]

Absolutely. My choice last year was SDR-S150 and DCR-SR90e. SDR-S150 won because it fits in my pocket but DCR-SR90e won because it has a viewfinder. Ultimately it was the portability that did it for me.

I taped two packs of cards together to represent the SDR-S150, and a full 440ml tin of beer to represent the DCR-SR90e. Now, one day you carry the two packs of cards with you all the time, of course in a pocket or I used a bumbag.

Next day you get to carry the tin of beer. It didn't fit my pocket or bumbag so that meant another bag, or just carry it in your hand.

I was more popular on days I turned up with a can of beer but I soon stopped bothering to take it with me.

Also, bear in mind that last year a 2GB SD card cost £40. Right now you can get an 8GB SDHC card that'll do 3hrs 45 minutes on ONE card in SP mode (I always use SP mode, it's perfectly OK), for the same price. And the SDR-S150 takes 8GB SDHC cards - as long as you stick to tried and tested brands.

I even found a battery that says it holds 1800mAH, and if genuine that should overcome CCI's only other classic objection, that of the enclosed battery.

I rest my case, m'lud.