Hello - I am looking for some recommendations.

I have for a few years now been using a Canon MVX250i miniDV camcorder and am looking to replace it for the simple reason that it is too big bulky. (If you are not familiar with the model here is a shot - http://www.simplydv.co.uk/Reviews/canon_mvx250i.html).

For months I have researched the alternatives to miniDV but hi def is still out of my budget and it would seem that SD mpeg-2 based camcorders, such as the Panasonic sdr-s150, do not seem to have the same quality as minidv, based on the footage I have downloaded. (A shame really as the sdr-s150 seemed suitable.)

As my budget is £500 tops (so this excludes a hi def cam - and I am not too interested in the Sanyo Xacti!), I am therefore looking at miniDV again. But the key thing is that the new cam must be more compact - to fit in my jeans pocket if possible for when I am out and about on my holiday. Does such a minidv cam exist or, because of the cassette mechanism, are they all as bulky as my mvx250i? Can anyone recommend a compact (i.e. smaller than the mvx250i) but good quality miniDV camcorder or must I go with solid state? If so, any affordable recommendations?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Andrew

[rhubarbe]

I had an SDR-S150 last summer and sold it about two months ago to go HD. I researched voluminously before buying it and I was satisfied that the mpeg-2 quality of the SDR-S150 was as good as edited and saved to mpeg-2 footage from any MiniDV camcorder. So, I bought it and I was very very happy with the image quality and the form factor, not to mention the convenience of not having to bother with tape.

As I said, I sold it to go HD, wanting as compact an HD cam as poss, and if possible solid state again. The closest I found to what I wanted was the Canon HV10, about £430 new and sealed on eBay right now. I loved the image, form factor was OK, and it was nice and small: I managed with the realtime firewire upload to PC Unfortunately, the drive made so much noise, audible on nearly all scenes, that I sent it back. My supplier tells me that if it is faulty he'll send me another and if, as he suspects, the motor noise is normal, he'll refund me.

In the meantime I have looked at everything there is to give me decent video in a compact form factor and I am either going to go for the the Panasonic HDC-SD7 (as an import from Japan) or spend another year in SD Land by buying another SDR-S150.

There just isn't anything to touch the SDR-S150 if you want tiny.

I don't know what video you have seen but IMHO the video is excellent.

Thanks rhubarbe

I have also researched this so much, but feel I am going round in circles - you can read too many reviews sometimes!

I considered the HV10 but my current Canon had a very audible motor noise and I vowed not to get another Canon (I am not sure if motor noise is common to Canon models or mini dv in general).

I have not seen that much SDR-S150 footage TBH - it is hard to find - but I have read on many forum posts that MPEG2 is inferior to mini dv (due to the heavier compression that MPEG2 requires).

But thanks for the post. I have also seen the SD7 also but doubt I could even get it on import for my £500! Form factor is excellent though.

Cheers

Andrew

[rhubarbe]

See if I can upload some.....

Very slow, megaupload......

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SBKKNBMP

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=815LSDNF

[rhubarbe]

But don't let's believe that mpeg-2 is lower quality than dv. Sure, in outright terms it doesn't have such a high bitrate but then what do 90% of people do with the DV that they so patiently upload to their PC's? Well, they burn them to DVD, and what format is DVD? mpeg-2.

Thanks for the footage rhubarbe. The low light is more impressive than I was led to believe from the reviews. I was impressed with the colour from the daytime shot as well.

One other point - I noticed you say that the Panasonic SD5 is to be £599 when launched... Is this an approximate conversion from a Euro price you have seen or will this be the UK price? I find it a surprising price after the launch price of the Sd1!

Although £500 is my limit I am now wondering if I should find another £100 for the obvious quality jump the SD5 would provide. After all, the best price I have seen for the SDR-S150 is £460 and another £140 does not seem that huge a jump for the obvious improvement. Wish there were some reviews though; my holiday is not far away!!

Anyway, if it is a UK price, where should I look for for that price?

Thanks again for your time rhubarbe.

Andrew

[rhubarbe]

No problem.

Here is the review of the HDC-SD5:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...view-33048.htm

and the SDR-S150:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

I always buy my cameras and camcorders from www.computeruniverse.net in Germany. I get a two year guarantee, better prices, respectful salespeople who can't do enough for you, and never any hassle whatsoever. I do have to buy a figure of eight to UK plug occasionally but what's that, about 50p?

Do bear in mind that the SD5, although sporting an increased resolution over the Sd1, (1920 x 1080 from 1440 x 1080) has smaller sensors, and only 10x opt zoom (down from 12x on SD1), so some might think it a better but than the newer, smaller SD5.

Right now they have the SDR-S150 listed at 589Euro (£411), and the HDC-SD5 listed at 889Euro (£621), plus about 20 or so Euros to deliver, and they take your credit card. Currently they have the SD1 at the same price as the SD5.

I have a mini-break to Dublin next week and no cam. Main holiday at end Sept and maybe still no cam.

Well if you get that SD5 I would love to read your opinion (and some footage would be very welcome!)

I shall keep my eye on this thread!

Andrew

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

But don't let's believe that mpeg-2 is lower quality than dv. Sure, in outright terms it doesn't have such a high bitrate but then what do 90% of people do with the DV that they so patiently upload to their PC's? Well, they burn them to DVD, and what format is DVD? mpeg-2.

Im not making case for DV AVI . It is better than mpeg2 which gets to DVD .. eventually
It is the quality of DV AVI that is maintained during editing ( Non generational IQ loss) and the control you get over how it becomes an Mpeg2 and later DVD that makes its real time transfer worth it.
You can chose which software you use to encode and which bitrates you want..With the camcorders you are stuck..
Even with MiniDV we sometimes just "dump" to a DVD recorder
However
If you have little or no interest in that sort of editing ( although mpeg2 is editable)
or
Cannot stand tapes ( moving part , motor noise ect)
Mpeg2 is it
It is however the poor implementation of some HDD or SD camcorders that make DV AVI "shine"

[rhubarbe]

Well, I think that the implementation of my ex-SDR-S150 wasn't 'arf bad.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Well, I think that the implementation of my ex-SDR-S150 wasn't 'arf bad.

I'm sure it wasn't, as it happens DVD videos ( SD mpeg2) are still giving the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (Hi def formats) a good run for their money

"Superbit" SD DVD ( mpeg2) is very nice to see, and HDV is mpeg2 (albeit in a different class)

Conversely there are some JVC, lesser Sony mpeg2 (HDD) camcorders whose output is terribly underwhelming

I was merely suggesting that anyone considering MiniDV and DV AVI should not feel ( due to the power of marketing ) that they are settling for an old fashioned dying format

[rhubarbe]

I do wonder, now that we have 160GB 2.5" HDDs that cost peanuts why do not the manufacturers just design the cam to dump m2t files to the HDD?

Why persist in using tiny capacity HDDs and then have to invent a whole new codec to deal with the problem that they have given themselves?

OTOH, market forces being what they are, have you seen the output from the Aiptek DV Z300 HD/Go-HD? Ambarella chip and an h.264 codec that will make your PC weep. TIP: if you download any footage, and some of it is superb, though lacks any OIS/EIS, play it using VLC as Quicktime will struggle.

Have a look and marvel at the file sizes: four hours 720p video on an 8GB SDHC card.

[redsox_mark]

That's more or less what JVC did with the HD7.... it's not exactly HDV but it's close, and MPEG2 based on HDD. Only problem is there are some other issues with the camcorder like image stabilisation which hold it back.

[rhubarbe]

Yes, they have really shot themselves in the foot with the OIS on that one. The newer firmware just about turns it off so you can't hear the noise of the thing hitting the stops (or so I have read). They are more or less giving them away on eBay right now. Would make a good buy, if the image stabilisation worked.

[rhubarbe]

The kind Germans have credited me with the full value of the HV10 including the shipping costs that I paid to have it delivered!

I was waiting for a Panasonic HDC-SD7 but in the meantime I have ordered another SDR-S150. You can't get a much stronger recommendation than that.

I burnt that footage you provided to DVD rhubarbe but on playback there was a nasty shimmering effect on any horizontal movement. I checked the original footage on my laptop and the effect is there but less noticeable. Is this a common "feature" with mpeg 2 or is this to do with my DVD encoding software or processing grunt of my (now old) laptop?

I was very concerned with this effect as it the footage practically unwatchable. Stationary footage looked great, but as soon as the image moves horizontally, urgh!

Also - another forum poster recommended the Sony dcr-pc55e.

This looks a great compact device, but I cannot find any reviews or and prices!

Seems an old model. Anyone got any clues about this device?

[redsox_mark]

PC55 was a small miniDV model.. but it is old (2005) model. It's been out of production for at least 18 months.

[rhubarbe]

Please see if you can find something more descriptive than "shimmering". I have never seen anything that I'd call shimmering.

Also, please bear in mind that I had only been using this camcorder, any camcorder for about five days when I took that footage, so i hadn't learned that if you must pan, do it slowly.

I did select the clips because the panning was very slow though, so I am at a loss to know what you mean. the clips look fine on my PC, laptop. Have never burned anything to DVD though.

yes it's not easy to describe!

It's like horizontal strips of the image are displaced horizontally - one strip to the left, the next lower strip to the right, and so on, almost as if you are looking at the image through a ridged water bottle.

(Copy this to fixed width font:
Normal image:

______________
|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
______________


What I see:

x______________
xx| |
| |
xx| |
| |
x______________

Replace the xs with spaces!

)

Not sure how much better I can describe it - perhaps I could take some crude footage of my tv displaying it and upload it myself!

[rhubarbe]

Sounds like a de-interlacing problem to me.

I can assure you that I have never seen anything like that. I know if you use VLC it kind of throws the WSS wobbler and makes the image thin and stretched, so I use Nero Showtime, which plays it fine, set to bob de-interlacing.

I have never burned a DVD from it.

I'm so happy with the video quality that I just bought another SDR-S150 to tide me over until I can get something like an HDC-SD7 in my grubbies.

[redsox_mark]

Avevers,

How did you create the DVD, and what sort of TV did you play it on?

[rhubarbe]

Just in case something had happened with the upload and download, I went to MegaUpload and downloaded both of my own clips. Now, I have downloaded them to a PC on which I do not have any other copies of these clips so I know I am playing the downloaded ones.

There is no shimmering, or anything else that I can see, apart from my newbie fast panning camerawork that spoils them.


You do have a recent mpeg-2 codec loaded on your PC, don't you?

[redsox_mark]

I downloaded the first one, and it looks fine to me too.

I used a trial version of ConvertXToDVD (by VSO), with default settings (not sure if there is a setting related to interlacing (am at work at the mo)), win XP, DVD-R disc, played back on a 16:9 CRT...

[rhubarbe]

Back in the days when I thought I might want to make DVD copies of Freeview TV programmes, I used a program called DVR Studio Pro by Haenlein Software GmbH. I don;t know if there is an evaluation version of it but ISTR it worked well. Not heard of the one you were trying.

[redsox_mark]

Does sound like an interlacing issue to me too.
The orginal footage is interlaced. If you are playing this on a DVD player and ordinary TV this should be fine (it will stay interlaced). If you are playing it on a DVD player and flatscreen TV, the TV would take care of the deinterlacing, and that should be fine too.
If you are playing it on a PC, you either would need to deinterlace it in your editor, or have the playback software take care of that. I played the original file with WMP and it deinterlaced it fine.

[rhubarbe]

I play it with Nero Showtime, WMP and VLC and it plays fine in all three, except there is a WSS issue with VLC that I haven't got to the bottom of yet.

Interesting - I played it using VLC (XP) on my PC and I get that shimmer effect. Wonder if it is the codec on my PC then.... Any recommended codec download sites I could use to replace my current set up with?

Andrew

[rhubarbe]

Try it with another player first, like WMP, before doing anything drastic and downloading maybe dodgy codecs.