[7hil]

As everyone else is, I'm after a camcorder with the best HD picture but also one where I can get the video from my camcorder to a BD-R disc with no further encoding or compression of the original source.

My initial idea is one of the Sony AVCHD HDD camcorders so I can simply transfer the file to my PC and then burn.

I thought about a mini DV HDV camcorder but presumably the transfer to PC must involve the video being re-encoded again, as the PC captures the video from tape in real-time.

Am I understanding all this correctly? Am I making any sense!

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by 7hil

I thought about a mini DV HDV camcorder but presumably the transfer to PC must involve the video being re-encoded again, as the PC captures the video from tape in real-time.

Am I understanding all this correctly? Am I making any sense!

With respect, no this doesn't make sense...

Capture of HDV is in real time, but it is a straight digital copy. There is no re-encoding when capturing to your PC.

Now let's assume you aren't editing at all (if you are, that will involve re-encoding regardless of format). The question then becomes can you put this captured HDV video on a Blu-Ray disc without re-encoding it. This I'm not sure about... I think it is possible but will depend on the software used. You certainly can put the HDV on a Blu-Ray disc without re-encoding, but will it play on all Blu-Ray players? This link indicates it is possible but currently may not play on all players
http://www.dvc.uk.com/guides/subnav.php?subnav=Bluray

[7hil]

That's important for me to realise that real-time copying via firewire, or whatever, doesn't mean additional encoding. Many thanks for that.

Perhaps a safer bet then for PS3 or blu-ray playback will be a AVCHD camcorder as I am positive that this format can be played back.

Perhaps a HDD camcorder is the best option.

[redsox_mark]

The PS3 does play native HDV files from a Blu-Ray disc (as well as AVCHD).

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by 7hil

That's important for me to realise that real-time copying via firewire, or whatever, doesn't mean additional encoding. Many thanks for that.

Perhaps a safer bet then for PS3 or blu-ray playback will be a AVCHD camcorder as I am positive that this format can be played back.

Perhaps a HDD camcorder is the best option.

mark do you think you will try putting any of you hdv tapes on hdv or blue ray disk.i will have to try some time as the longer it goes the more there is to do and i cant see hdv blue ray recorders[like dvd ones we have now]for a long time if ever.chris

[redsox_mark]

Eventually yes, I hope to create either Bluy-Ray or HD-DVD discs with my HDV footage.

But I'm in no hurry. My main interest in creating DVDs (of any type) is for "distribution" (e.g. a few discs for family and friends, or 200 discs for a primary school production). As long as burners and players (and discs!) are expensive and most people don't have the players, I'm not motivated to create high def discs. For my own use I can simply save my projects back to HDV tape and play those, or play high def files from a PC. For "distribution" I convert to SD.

[7hil]

The main reason this has become an issue for me is that I've just got my hands on a relatively cheap vaio laptop with a BD-R burner, so i'm now exploring which camcorder will be the best and easiest one to use when transferring to BD. All the family have HDTV's and with, hopefully, a PS3 price drop at some point over the next year, it's not inconceivable that I might be making quite a few BD discs in the future. particularly as there is a baby on the way! (Not mine though)

[redsox_mark]

Either should work but I think you are right that AVCHD will be easier.

Your family is more up to date than mine! I've just convinced my in-laws to get their first standard def DVD player! (Up to now I've had to make videos for them). My parents do have a HDTV, but nothing which can play HD discs of any type.

What do you think

MP3 VS CD?

[rhubarbe]

Why not download some sample, unreencoded (nasty looking word) HDV and give it a try?

You could then tell us.

I was looking at an AVCHD camcorder, even bought an 8GB Memory Stick. But then I thought, two weeks holiday, say even thirty minuites a day is going to be a lot of Memory Sticks unless I take a phototank. But will a phototank work with an 8GB MS? I don't know, and nor does the maker of my tank, to judge from his lack of a reply.

Last year I took an mpeg-2 SD camcorder on holiday and I am now so paranoid about losing the mpeg-2 files that I have backups scattered across every PC I own (a lot). This is silly. I don't trust DVDR for longevity. All I do trust is tape, so it is with some initial disbelief that I now start to think about buying a Canon HV10 (mainly because of the size and form factor) in order to get HD, and an easily archivable storage medium.

It's an odd world.

[7hil]

Originally Posted by littlelio

What do you think

MP3 VS CD?

If you mean Mp3 vs Wav then there is no competition. Wav ofcourse.

I was under the impression that it wasn't as clear cut with HDV and AVCHD.

Or am i misunderstanding your analogy?

[7hil]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Last year I took an mpeg-2 SD camcorder on holiday and I am now so paranoid about losing the mpeg-2 files that I have backups scattered across every PC I own (a lot).

I'm the same. I make multiple DVD-R copies of SD stuff just for myself!

If I can get my hands on a BD-RE then as you say, maybe I can try both out and see what happens!

Originally Posted by 7hil

If you mean Mp3 vs Wav then there is no competition. Wav ofcourse.

I was under the impression that it wasn't as clear cut with HDV and AVCHD.

Or am i misunderstanding your analogy?

Oh, i meant the HDV tape is similar to a CD disc, which is exchangable. While MP3 and AVCHD use Flashdisk/HHD which is not a media you could buy and change it immediately.

Also, CD DAT file is bigger than MP3 file, with better quality. Same situation with HDV (captured on the disk) and AVCHD.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by 7hil

I was under the impression that it wasn't as clear cut with HDV and AVCHD.

In terms of quality you are correct. It depends on the specific camcorder, in general the HDV models have a slight edge in quality, but it is not a big difference.

[JUS]

This any help? .....camcorder burns the disc then the "AVCHD format discs can also be played back on a PC, compatible Blu Ray disc player or Playstation 3®"..sounds pretty easy to me if you don't want the messing around with a PC.

"AVCHD High Definition Handycam for users who want to record their memories in optimum 1080i High Definition picture quality on convenient 8 cm DVD discs, but still have the ultimate creative control through a wealth of manual operation features."

"The HDR-UX7 supports a wide variety of DVD media, including DVD+R DL (Double Layer) discs, allowing you to record on one disc for up to 1 hour in High Definition (AVC HD 5M (LP) mode). For simple playback, an HDMI™ connection means that you can simply connect the UX7 directly to a HD ready TV to replay your High Definition movies without any loss of picture quality. AVCHD format discs can also be played back on a PC, compatible Blu Ray disc player or Playstation 3®"

https://shop.sonystyle-europe.com/So...02BC29B73)/.do

[senu]

Originally Posted by JUS

This any help? .....camcorder burns the disc then the "AVCHD format discs can also be played back on a PC, compatible Blu Ray disc player or Playstation 3®"..sounds pretty easy to me if you don't want the messing around with a PC.

"AVCHD High Definition Handycam for users who want to record their memories in optimum 1080i High Definition picture quality on convenient 8 cm DVD discs, but still have the ultimate creative control through a wealth of manual operation features."

"The HDR-UX7 supports a wide variety of DVD media, including DVD+R DL (Double Layer) discs, allowing you to record on one disc for up to 1 hour in High Definition (AVC HD 5M (LP) mode). For simple playback, an HDMI™ connection means that you can simply connect the UX7 directly to a HD ready TV to replay your High Definition movies without any loss of picture quality. AVCHD format discs can also be played back on a PC, compatible Blu Ray disc player or Playstation 3®"

Sony would say that wouldnt they?:

I for one am not convinced by DVD camcorders especially for Hi def
The obvious convenience of bypasssing a PC is easy to see as is the.. shoot it ...view it instantly appeal

What isnt as appealing ( to me ) is the

Limited time to record in best quality mode, (Not LP)
Occasional media incompatibility
Sometimes ( limited) media availability and cost compared to better VFM full size discs
Unreliability of optical discs as archiving media
Failure to properly "finalise" which can render footage on the media lost forever

Even though Im quite happy with HDV and real time transfer to PC ( no reencoding: just to reeemphasize),

I really dont see the big deal in downloading AVCHD material to PC and burning to what is essentially a data disc of video files .
The material can be archived off to an EXT HDD and more than one episode of footage can be burnt at best quality to the same disc .
The full sized discs cost less per megabyte than the mini DVDs and DVD burners, Nero ect are both common place.. and cheap

HDDs are reasonably large and Flash card are affordable , and reusable.. Even if no editng is desired, I think in trying to market and promote the virtues of "PC less" video..camcorders such as the DVD Hi Def models, the PC route is deliberately made out to be needlessly complicated. Any mention ease of use ( once you know how) and versatility is cleverly muted

As an aside, I do use a Settop DVD recorder myself for SD sometimes to avoid the PC but there is no Hi Def equivalent of that.. yet.. if ever!

[redsox_mark]

I agree with you Senu; I'd much rather have a AVCHD HDD cam than a DVD one. 1 hour on a disc in LP mode... or 20 mins in high quality mode.
Plus for the original poster, he/she was looking to put the footage on a blu-ray disc. The red laser mini DVDs from these camcorders will play on a Blu-ray player, but they are not Blu-ray discs.

[Ono]

I'm at early stages still with regards to a HD camcorder based on either format. Essentially the camera will be used for family shots etc and may require a bit of editing eventually but nothing fancy (only to put in titles and chapters).

In the short term, I'd like the footage to be stored on either it's capture storage (ie. mini-DV for HDV) or plonk everything onto an external HDD. In both cases, I will be burning onto either BR or HD-DVD once the formats settle down and recorders become more affordable. I currently own a 360 but not a PS3.

I'd like to also be able to watch my archived footaged on my HD LCD TV.


Looking at the above, can I deduce that the HDV format seems a better choice? I am looking at the Canon-HV20.

[senu]

The Canon HV20 is a seriously good camcorder ( even as an SD model)
The truth is that the HDD based AVCHD camcorders can also do what you want
but
Playing edited footage can be as simple as "printing" the edit back to tape and playing it off the camcorder
With AVCHD playback options to your TV are currently rather limited to ownership of a PS3 unless you convert it to wmv-hd and buy the xbox 360 HD DVD add -on
With both you can of course play off a HTPC or a suitable media player

Tape ( old fashioned as it seems ) is yet to be ousted as a portable reliable and affordable archive: in addition to rather than ( with AVCHD) exclusively, an Ext HDD

The initial quality and ease of play and editing of HD from HDV has an edge over AVCDH for now.. the matter of PQ is one of degree but certainly ease of play , and editing as well as current editing support are definitely : advantage to HDV

Even if the HDV is downconverted in camera to SD for use as "normal" footage, the DV AVI as starting material offers a bit more scope for keeping PQ and Editing than mpeg2 ( which you would have to convert AVCHD to)
As such Id suggest your instincts regarding HDV and the HV20 here are right

[Ono]

Thanks senu.

Looks like the Canon is the one.

[7hil]

Yes i'm starting to turn now too.

I received my blu-ray laptop at the weekend and on Click to DVD BD it seems to be preset for HDV. With the marginally better PQ from HDV, my slight mistrust of anything not tape based, and the fact that HDV will playback on a PS3 is making me lean towards the HV20 too! The price difference between that and the HDD one I was opting for also helps.

So am I right in thinking that the HV20 is the best HDV camcorder on the market at the moment? Do any of the Sony's come close?

[rhubarbe]

Only the HDR-HC7 but it's horses for courses.

[7hil]

With HDV being MPEG2 based, does that mean that less video can be stored on a DVD or BD when compared with AVCHD?

[senu]

Originally Posted by 7hil

With HDV being MPEG2 based, does that mean that less video can be stored on a DVD or BD when compared with AVCHD?

Probably, mpeg2 is less compressed , AVCDH is an "Advanced Video Codec" after all .HDV mpeg2 is very high bitrate though, more so than AVCHD, probably accounting for a slight PQ advantage.
Saying that in the techno world mpeg is considered "old". Practically this is just a way of preferring the most recent as is often the case with ever progressing technology.. Watching Hi def recorded as HDV and AVCHD, there is nothing at all "old" about the Hi def quality from HDV
With DVD discs it may a little matter ( for amount) but DVD is not the "expected" media HD was expecting to be played off. HD DVD (..seesms BD is killing it off) or BD is
With BD ( or HD DVD if it survivies) format may not matter given how large that is.. Do you want 6 hrs worth of video on one disc?

[7hil]

No, as long as I can get a good couple of hours of HD on a BD disc I'll be quite happy. I don't like the idea of having too much on one disc because what happens if that disc screws up .

[senu]

Originally Posted by 7hil

No, as long as I can get a good couple of hours of HD on a BD disc I'll be quite happy. I don't like the idea of having too much on one disc because what happens if that disc screws up .

True and 6 hrs of any footage in my house will not get watched for a good few months!
BD are marketing the big disc sizes ( compared to HD DVD) though and I for one cannot see them using more than a fraction of it for anything really tangible

[rhubarbe]

You can cram a heck of a lot of trailers and ads into a 6 hour capacity disc.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by 7hil

So am I right in thinking that the HV20 is the best HDV camcorder on the market at the moment? Do any of the Sony's come close?

By all accounts, the Sony HC7 comes extremely close! More people seem to prefer the Canon HV20's picture (usually slightly, sometimes more so), although some prefer the Sony's colours, other prefer the Canon's. Again more people seem to prefer the Canon's low light ability, but again probably not much in it (and a probably matter of preference). What the Canon does offer is 25p (or 24p in 30fps areas) - progressive shooting, which does give better lowlight images (at the expense of potentially some jerkiness with panning or movement).

The Sony is often reckoned to be "better built" and ergonomically rather nicer to hold and use (including the zoom). The Sony has a touchscreen menu (some love it, some hate it), the Canon has a "joystick". Personally reading forums etc I think I see more complaints about reliability etc on Canons, including returns of brand new HV20s than I do of the HC7 (and rattles and wobbles) - but maybe that could reflect more HV20s being sold, I don't know? The performance of the built-in mic - and the old problem of motor noise - on the Canon HV20 do seem to be an issue for some people too.

The Sony has marginally more manual control, spot focus and spot metering, 3-second slow-mo mode, slightly higher res still pictures, S-video out, LANC control, Super Night Shot Infra-Red, but it also has Sony's proprietory accessory shoe... Canon has focus assist, and AV in with analogue signal convert. Opinion is divided on which has the better auto focus (Canon also has Instant Auto Focus) and Optical Image Stabilier.

As rhubarbe said, "horses for courses"... they are close, but depends on what you actuall want / need / will use.

[rhubarbe]

OK, so I have ordered my Canon HV10. Now, I need some editing software. i downloaded a trial copy of Sony Vegas Movie Studio. It's not exactly intuitive, is it?

All I want to do with my HDV capture is to cut out grotty bits and make an un-re-encoded copy to "print" back to a DV tape, and also to save as a native xxxx file to store on the HTPC so that it can be played back on the HDTV.

Now, the preceding paragraph is what I want to do and I am making some fairly big assumptions here, so can anybody suggest some software and fill in the xxxx above?

Is it an m2t file? An m2ts file or something I might never have heard of?

Although my HTPC will output at 1980 x 1080 (1440 x 1080 anamorphic for the HDV) my current LCDTV is only 720p, but I do have a scaler that I can use in the meantime until I trade up to a 1080p panel.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

OK, so I have ordered my Canon HV10. Now, I need some editing software. i downloaded a trial copy of Sony Vegas Movie Studio. It's not exactly intuitive, is it?

Most NLE have a little learning curve. Pinnacle Studio is very easy to grasp . Adobe Premiere Elements 3 less so but as one who has used most of them I assure you they may have different GUIs but all are capable. None requires a PhD!
The full version of Vegas Movie Studio has "show me how" tutorials which are great . I must say if some one shows you how to use it in 5-10min youll be amazed how easy it is to use for basic stuff
If the trial doesnt Pm me

All I want to do with my HDV capture is to cut out grotty bits and make an un-re-encoded copy to "print" back to a DV tape, and also to save as a native xxxx file to store on the HTPC so that it can be played back on the HDTV.

You can do that fairly easlity once you get the hang of Vegas

Now, the preceding paragraph is what I want to do and I am making some fairly big assumptions here, so can anybody suggest some software and fill in the xxxx above?

Is it an m2t file? An m2ts file or something I might never have heard of?

Mpeg2 tranport file m2t is the HDV mpegs with a transport stream header. .That is the "native" HDV file

Although my HTPC will output at 1980 x 1080 (1440 x 1080 anamorphic for the HDV) my current LCDTV is only 720p, but I do have a scaler that I can use in the meantime until I trade up to a 1080p panel.

As long as it looks good, 720p, 1080i 1080p are all a matter of degree.. all leave SD on the starting blocks