[River Chat]

Hi all

Is the Panasonic NV-GS500 a good cam and worth the the money ?

My aspirations are more than 'home video' and will involve documentry type filmaking where PC based editing will be a crucial element. I need excellent video quality, portability (important, hand-sized cam is a must. will be prolonged world travelling with it) and relative ease of use.. expandability with external mic's and lenses may also be a priority.

I've been trawling all the review sites as to this cam, but as a stranger to DV (my last camcorder was a Sony Video8, yrs ago) i'd appreciate any opinions on this particular model... Or the NV-GS400, its older brother. Is it better ? Its certainly harder to find one for sale, but it does has great reviews.

Thanks

[jaymac]

Well I'm pleased with mine though its my first cam so maybe not the best judge Have a lok at these 2 sites think you will find in some aspects its better than the 400 http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/index.php

http://www.pana3ccduser.com/

[senu]

I have only had the 400 when it was the rage and loved it. I dont know how it betters the 400 but controls and absolute IQ dont seem to be the issues
The 400 is very hard to get now
At any rate neither can take extra lenses ( ordinarily) unless Panasonic has some adaptors

Unfortunately, there used to be a class of camcorders which were not Pro but were a cut above those designed for home use.. That class seems to have dissapered as most of the the manual features have been removed one by one in the march to make tape redundant on the home market
Convenience over quality and flexibility on control is the current trend
While I think the 500 will help you get shooting experience, for the use you anticipate You will find the lack of manual controls a bit of a handicap and might have to make the jump to "semi pro " models costing up to 3-4 x as much
Ideally if you can find a Canon XM2 new or second hand, it would be ideal apart from size ( it wont fit into your pocket)
Niether will Camcorders like Canons HDV HV20 but they may be more of what you should be aiming for . dont let the single CMOS/ 3CCD comparison pt you off. The CMOS camcorders are not far behind with colour rendition and are better with less lighting.
HDV camcorders can be used as SD ( they are quite competent at that too) and as such PC based editing is supported

[felix2]

Hi, I haven't used the GS500 or GS400, but by all accounts the 500 is a very good cam and probably the last in a breed of high end standard definition consumer camcorders, - which as Senu said the manufacturers have been slowly and painfully killing off over the last few years. To be fair, they push what they believe the market will buy, and price and ease of use seem to have been top of that list. The sorts of serious / very keen amateurs, and semi-pros wanting something very portable, who may have been making videos for 15 years, have less and less now to choose from.

I understood (don't know if correctly?) that the 500 was a dumbed down version of the 400 (which may itself have been good enough for the price to put some people off buying more expensive 'pro' / semi-pro cameras!... might explain why they discontinued it!!). The 400 was reckoned to be a very good camcorder, although possibly not quite as good as some of Panasonic's older DX / MX camcorders or Sony's infamous TRV900 / 950 - which are all really getting a bit too old to recommend buying second hand IMHO.

I don't think you'll get changeable lenses for the sort of thing you're looking for, but you can get clip-on / screw-on adaptors (e.g. wide angle) for anything. Mic input is obviously essential for you. The next step up would be Canon XM2 as Senu said or Sony VX2100, but these are hardly pocket cams (really half-way between handheld and full shoulder mounted jobs). If I were you, I'd seriously try getting your hands on a Sony HC7 and Canon HV20 (&/or HV10) as well as the GS500, to compare how you like them, what manual settings they have, and what they produce. Even in standard def, the HC7 and HV20 give great video (it's probably quite close between them and the 3CCD GS500 for colours?) - and they also offer hi-def HDV thrown in too!

[River Chat]

thanks for the response guys..

I'd never even looked at the Canon HV20 But reading various reviews today, it certainly does appear to be a very nice piece of kit indeed...

Now I'm beginning to sway towards this cam rather than the Pana 500

[Spooky_uk]

seems very hard to source these now (panny 500) and at silly prices too. is it due to be replaced anyone know?

[jaymac]

Dont think it will be replaced as such what do you call silly prices it still appears to be around for around £550 ish which is about 50 more than I paid last year. Have alo k here you may find an alternative http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

[rhubarbe]

From what I read last year when I was searching for an SD cam (and I read a lot), the 400 was the bees knees, and the 500 a pale imitation of something the reviewers thought would be hard to better.

Even last year (Sept) the 400 was nigh on impossible to find. You get the odd one on eBay but the guys selling them price them like Sainsburys do carrots - as if they are 24 carat gold encrusted with diamonds.

[jaymac]

For one the 500 was'nt a replacement for the 400 andat about half the price so a straight comparison was not so, Also in some ways it bettered the 400
Though the original OP was only asking about the 500

[rhubarbe]

So, why did you start talking about the 400, in post number 2?

Here are the words of CCI, verbatim:

"Easily one of the most anticipated camcorders in the last few years, Panasonic’s PV-GS500 arrived this year to replace the hugely successful PV-GS400 (Review, Specs, $1099). The GS400 offered great video quality with a bundle of pro-level features that made it a hit with the serious hobbyists and prosumers. This year, Panasonic has adopted a new approach, leaving fans none too pleased. In order to court a larger market, Panasonic has slashed prices on their top MiniDV models, and dropped most of the pro-level features in the process. So here it is – the GS500. It may be replacing the GS400, but it’s sure not much of a successor."

Seems to be the 400 replacement, to me.

[jaymac]

Mentioned purely as a reference for the guy to read and consider for himself I Would not consider or judge anything on the source you quoted. I stand by it was not a replacement for the 400

[rhubarbe]

But the source I quoted was the same site as you posted your link to: Camcorder Info, known to all and sundry as CCI.

[redsox_mark]

I think the issue is the word "replacement", and what is meant by it. In its time the GS400 was the top of Panasonic's consumer DV cam range, with the new range the GS400 was dropped and the GS500 was released and became the top of the range. So from that perspective the GS500 could be considered a replacement of the GS400. But as has been said, the GS500 was cheaper and was missing some features on the GS400, so in that way you could say there was no "replacement" for the GS400.

[rhubarbe]

Well, I dunno. CCI says:

"This year, Panasonic has adopted a new approach, leaving fans none too pleased. In order to court a larger market, Panasonic has slashed prices on their top MiniDV models, and dropped most of the pro-level features in the process."

So, on the one hand, Panasonic have slashed the prices on all miniDV cams, and on the other they have discontinued the 400, brought out the 500 and lost a lot of features on the new range. So the price differential between the 400 and the 500 may have more to do with "slashed prices on their top miniDV models".

I suppose it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. But at any rate, it's academic now.

[felix2]

Either way, I wouldn't expect much (if anything) from any possible "replacement" of the GS500, - Panasonic's mid-range consumer mini-DV cams have been losing features e.g. mic input since last year, - so I guess with dwindling stocks of the GS500 and Sony HC96 we're seeing the tail end of "higher end" consumer mini DV camcorders. There's still life in the cheaper ranges ("slashed prices"), otherwise it's HDV, or HDD / memory card / optical disc cams. Or one or two stalwarts holding on in the larger £1500+ range (e.g. VX2100 & XM2).

[Spooky_uk]

Originally Posted by jaymac

Dont think it will be replaced as such what do you call silly prices it still appears to be around for around £550 ish which is about 50 more than I paid last year. Have alo k here you may find an alternative http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

pricerunner for example when I checked last night lists a cheapest price approx £660 and most inthe £700's... kicking myself as it was listed at ebuyer earlier this year for £400 odd

Mind you, may plump for the Canon HV20 now when the time comes..

[jaymac]

Apologies Rhubarb you caught me out there. Though I was referring more to their forum where there was several disputes as to whether it was or was'nt a replacement and how good by people who owned it. I have the 500 and at the time of buying it last year the 400 was freely available at Jessops at more than twice what I paid serious case of diminishing returns I thought. My real concern giving negative opinions based only on what you read without at least pointing the OP to judge for himself from reviews.Still all as you said academic now

[rhubarbe]

It's an odd one though, isn't it? The NV-GS500 is still making HDV money in the High Street, and Panasonic don't do an HDV cam. Your choice but I think if it were me I'd go for the Canon HV20 in favour of an SD camcorder. I know that the GS500 is 3CCD but really, HD must be the way to go?

@ Jaymac: I take the CCI forums with a bit of a pinch of salt. Pana3CCDuser is a better forum, or even DVinfo.... I expect you know that though, don't you?

[jaymac]

Yes I bought the 500 on the strength of Pan a3ccd forum particularly the selection of video footage .As for the High street maybe Panasonic is cleverer than one thinks . HD may well be the way to go but for the amount I do not yet .

[senu]

I have no doubt that Panasonic 3ccd camcorders are impressive. I owned an MX350 ( which I gave away), then MX500 both of which were fully featured ...and still have great footage from them

However, Also having the Sony VX 2100 later, and the 3CCD FX1 (HDV) and HC1 CMOS ( HDV) and seing how good these are too, makes me wonder if Panasonic is clever or simply betting heavily on the HDD and Flash card based HiDef formats

In an similar scenario for a long time they simply refused to acknowledge LCD technology for Hi def TV display dismisssing it as a passing fad and largely extolling the virtues of Plasma until it seemed they were shooting themselves in the foot

[rhubarbe]

I agree actually, jaymac. I sold my SD cam a couple of months ago, expecting I'd easily be able to find an HD replacement but I can't find one that ticks all my boxes. I thought the HV10 would do it but it was so noisy I sent it back today. I may even go and buy another SDR-S150 and wait to see what next year brings.

I think that OIS has a long way to go before it's as good with HD as it is currentlly with SD.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

I agree actually, jaymac. I sold my SD cam a couple of months ago, expecting I'd easily be able to find an HD replacement but I can't find one that ticks all my boxes. I thought the HV10 would do it but it was so noisy I sent it back today. I may even go and buy another SDR-S150 and wait to see what next year brings.

I think that OIS has a long way to go before it's as good with HD as it is currentlly with SD.

Im not sure why you and the HV10 did not get on suffice to say you may have got a particularly noisy model....or you routinely shoot very quiet scenes
None of the camcorders Ive quoted in my post ( Panasonics and Sony SD and HDV) which youll agree are a variety of brands and formats have "excessive" motor noise IMO. And all use MiniDV.

OIS can be something of a crutch,
Useful though it is. it should not be a substitute for good videotaping techniques and ready use of a monopod/tripod.

The issue of image stabilisation is also topical with DSLRs ATM but many still use them without it built in and Nikon has just announced 2 fairly costly 9 D300 and D3) models without it built in, preffering to leave it on the ( costly ) lenses!

Im very keen to embrace new technology as long as compromises with quality and editing ease are few if any. The message seem to be that aspiring Semi Pros should wait till AVCHD or Mpeg2 (SD) ( on tapeless media) creeps upwards
As such I have a feeling of disquiet that these newer technologies are being pushed without the serious videomaking/ advanced enthusiast as a market .. The "in your face " quality of SD mpeg2 on cards and HDD and AVCHD are not in doubt.
It is the rather lacklustre support with how much you can do ( and how easily you can do it) with the footage( apart form easy transfer to PC) afterwards that is ( to me) disappointing
That, and the fact that the camcorders have been gradually stripped down of any features that give the person shooting any control over how the video will turn out
These attributes still remain in the costlier "Semi Pro" range most of which remain tape based
Thankfully, the Digital Still world is not going in that direction. Not trading convenience for quality and manual control ( when desired)

[jaymac]

Couple of points Senu Are you sure it was panasonic that ignored the LCD progress seem to recall Sony had serious problems ignoringit more so than Panny no matter As for new technology could'nt agree more alas that is the way of the market .Technology cant be sold like washing powder etc., by just stamping New on the package and it is pushed out to with great Hype and capabilities but as you point out a lot missing .You ony have to look at DAB radio the UK has the worst quality (Bit rate) on the planet and even the beeb admits FM stereo is still superior sound. With the best equipment around unless you are good and really work at your presentations (I'm Not) and as said the camera has the best of controls they will just produce mediocre stuff albeit in HD.

[felix2]

I think a year or so ago the GS500 would've been a very good choice, being rather cheaper than the older GS400, and with no doubt even some benefits over the GS400 as well as (sadly) a number of higher level features lacking on the newer model. I'm sure it's still a great cam - possibly as suggested by its price actually going up over the last year (like the VX2100 which has gone up in price quite a bit over the last year as supply seems less keen through retailers but people still demand it for its almost unique advantages in the range). But now that the GS500 has got a bit more pricey / harder to find again, and the HV10 can be gotten so cheaply (and the HV20 and HC7 are only £700-750), I think the pendulum has now swung firmly in favour of HDV and against the nearly-extinct mid-to-high level mini-DV consumer models.

In "cheaper" end pro / broadcast cameras, Sony's XDCAM HD system (~£15k?) appears to have been causing a storm, with its Discovery HD approved broadcast codec (more like a 'grown-up' HDV I think than like AVCHD) on removeable disks - and Sony's new EX camera, due I think to offer that same codec, as well as HDV (and SD DVCAM) onto memory card when it comes out in a couple of months (~£4-5k?), is likely to cause another storm! Which is why I've said before a £1,000 cam that records editable / low-end broadcastable footage (like HDV and SD DV) onto HDD or memory card would be great. The gap between 'pro' and 'consumer' seems to be ever widening, with a bit of a chasm in between! The future of consumer HD will definitely be HDD / card based AVCHD or similar, and I don't know how many new HDV consumer cams will come out next year or the year after...?? Which will presumably mean semipro's have to go up to the Sony A1 or FX7 etc (HDV) - and will be stuck in the middle with tape! As I've said before, it's a shame the JVC HD7 HD HDD cam doesn't seem to live up to all its paper spec expectations.

[rhubarbe]

Well, you see, I don't consider myself to be anything other than a point and shooter in the world of video. Sure, when I used my SLR over the years I learnt how to use it to get good, if not very good shots that I was quite proud of. But ultimately, they all went into a box in the loft and nobody ever looked at them again.

Last year the SDR-S150 was my first ever video cam, and I bought it to film Madeira, where I went on holiday with my wife, so that we could recall the holiday and, I have to admit it, in my search for a "persuading the wife to retire somewhere warm and safe" campaign, I regarded it as just another tool.

We have the footage on a DVico TVix 4100, connected to the TV with HDMI and we can watch it whenever we like. The OIS was very good, enabling me to keep the cam steady most of the time, and I quickly learned not to pan fast.

Most of the footage was taken as we walked up very steep hills, or in restaurants, where its being a tiny cam helped because one didn't feel such a prat bringing out a huge camcorder and ruining a natural moment as the subject became an actress rather than a mountaineer or diner. For this reason I never used a tripod, and I don't see how, for the kind of footage I am every going to take, a tripod can be an option. Thus I must needs rely upon the OIS.

From my standpoint ease of AVCHD or mpeg-2 editing doesn't really apply because from the SD card the clips are all individual files and those I dislike have already been discarded in their entirety, just leaving the good clips.

HDV for me was the price I had to pay to go HD with a cam of the same form factor as my SDR-S150, but sadly the motor noise of my HV10 was too great - though my supplier has promised to send me a replacement if he thinks that my HV10 makes more noise than the average cam in the street. None of the other HDV cams are small enough for me to carry around in my pocket/bumbag while on holiday: I know this because I have the dimensions of all of them in a spreadhseet.

The only two AVCHD cams that are of a size I'd consider are the HDC-SD5 and the HDR-CX6, but even then the form factor will, IMHO, ruin for me the ability to capture a spontaineous moment because it's so obvious that you are sitting there holding a camcorder.

I'll have a look at a Panasonic HDC-SD7, I think (granted only NTSC models will be available imported from Japan), and failing that I'll go back to a SDR-S150.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

The only two AVCHD cams that are of a size I'd consider are the HDC-SD5 and the HDR-CX6, but even then the form factor will, IMHO, ruin for me the ability to capture a spontaineous moment because it's so obvious that you are sitting there holding a camcorder.

I understand your post except for the part above... I can understand why you want as small as possible, but I'm intrigued as to how your subjects would not recognise the HV10 as a camcorder (while they would recognise the CX6).

[rhubarbe]

Yes, sorry, I am being confusing. It was the Panasonic SDR-S150 that most people didn't notice my holding in my hand. The extra size of the HV10 would indeed tip it so that people did recognise it as a camcorder: I didn't get chance to try it out much in real life before it went back.

I could sit at a restaurant table and just film the proceedings with the SDR-S150 and nobody would notice it, not even my wife who can be really quite funny after half a bottle of wine (she has me in stitches in fact). Sit there with an obvious camcorder and the reaction of people just changes. You lose the spontaneous nature of the dynamic, if you get my drift.

I suppose I really wanted an HD version of the SDR-S150 and I suppose talking about it has been cathartic in that it has helped me to decide that I have either to go for the new HDC-SD7, as an import, and failing that another SDR-S150.

[senu]

Originally Posted by jaymac

Couple of points Senu Are you sure it was panasonic that ignored the LCD progress seem to recall Sony had serious problems ignoringit more so than Panny no matter

They both did and But Sony made a big U turn early on are not making Plasmas anyway

As for new technology could'nt agree more alas that is the way of the market .Technology cant be sold like washing powder etc., by just stamping New on the package and it is pushed out to with great Hype and capabilities but as you point out a lot missing .You ony have to look at DAB radio the UK has the worst quality (Bit rate) on the planet and even the beeb admits FM stereo is still superior sound. With the best equipment around unless you are good and really work at your presentations (I'm Not) and as said the camera has the best of controls they will just produce mediocre stuff albeit in HD.

I see what you ( and rhubarbe ) may be saying regarding the tediuos effort it takes sometimes to produce "fantastic" videos.
Sometimes we all cant be bothered ( Sometimes I just lose the "will to live" TBH).
However if and when the urge to go a notch or 2 better than the obviously amateurish looking "home video" strikes It would be nice to know it is oneself and not the kit that is the limiting factor

[rhubarbe]

Ah, but I grew up with my dad's 8mm movie film camera shadowing my every movement, so I am used to having to watch mediocre video.

To be fair, he wasn't that bad and because the film was so expensive way back when, we did used to get just the edited highlights.

Interestingly, he had no means at all of editing the footage, which maybe just makes you even more right, senu, that if we have the means nowadays maybe we really should make the most of them.

I really wanted to edit some HDV, but don't view mpeg-2 editing in the same way. I suppose I could shove some music on the clips but in all honesty my video is all about dialogue.