[JustinL]

Hi Guys,

I currently own a Panny GS70, have just had a 2nd child and was plannng to start using the camcorder far more.

I was wondering if you reckon it would be worthwhile upgrading to one of the newer HD Cams. I was thinking of the Sony HDC/7, Canon HV20 or the Panny HDCSD1.

I have access to both a macbook pro and Vista so not worried about software as such, I also have a PS3 and a Sony HD LCD.

Would it be worthwhile upgrading now or waiting bearing in mind I plan on using it far more now. I like my current cam but am tempted with going down the hdd or flash card route as with my set up I can see it being far more convenient.

If anyone who owns any of the above after upgrading from a similar one I currently have can advise if they think it is worthwhile.

Thanks for any thoughts....

[redsox_mark]

Yes it is worth it. I have a Sony HC1 (earlier model) and compared to my earlier DV model it is much better.
Any of the models you have listed are good; you'll see many recent threads about HDV tape vs. AVCHD (HDD or memory card) formats.

[senu]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Yes it is worth it. I have a Sony HC1 (earlier model) and compared to my earlier DV model it is much better.
Any of the models you have listed are good; you'll see many recent threads about HDV tape vs. AVCHD (HDD or memory card) formats.

Ditto..( in addition I have a slightly more upmarket HDV and very good SD model)
As Mark has hinted in a very subtle way ( ) , all the models you have listed are far better than what you have now,:High Definition is

However the differing Formats : HDV ( miniDV tape) and AVCHD (HDD and Flash card) make them different camcorders aspiring to achieve the same aim of recording video at better definition than SD.
The resulting file formats by which they do this are different although not so much in Image quality
Also worth bearing in mind that for now is that unlike SD there is currently no readily available Hi Definition equivalent of the consumer recordable DVD although it is worth recording in Hi def for now and making Standard DVDs from the footage
The HD material can be viewed off the PC as such and in a few other ways though

You can of course use them ( HDV, more readily) as if they were current and better "normal" DV camcorders

[JustinL]

thanks for your replies. I have been doing some research and it seems all have advantages and disadvantages. It seems the future will be solid state ie what the panny and Sony CX6 are offering however it seems that if I go down this route now there will be a lot of waiting around for the format to mature. I think the mini dv's are great but not the future and I can't se the point of spending £700+ for this.

The question is do I make do with what I have for a few more months, it seems like there are a few new upgraded Panasonics coming out (the SD5) and wait for the technology to mature a bit more. Spend a small amount on upgrading my GS70 to a better SD camera to tide me over or bite the bullet and change over now.

[senu]

Originally Posted by JustinL

Spend a small amount on upgrading my GS70 to a better SD camera to tide me over or bite the bullet and change over now.

There is HDD....
...and at any rate the HDV (tape) camcorders have a lot of life left in them IMHO.

New ones are being released and the market drive for "newer" formats and perception that tape is "old hat" have not quite condemned them to extinction
Also the Pro and Semi Pro market still use tape too. I would still buy one

Once the footage is on the PC as digital.. the newer formats (HDD and SD card ect) advantage dissappears..
At that point the relative ease of editing ( if desired) and existing wider support then make them ( MiniDV based camcorders) still rather attractive

The other advantage of an HDV Camcorder is the fact that they tend to be very good SD camcorders ..not a lot costlier than a good SD but with the advantage of "HD today"

I seriously wouldn't buy an SD camcorder again unless it was for playing or transferring to PC any older footage I might have

[redsox_mark]

I agree with Senu about HDV tape... if it gives you the best quality for the money (which I believe it does), so what if the future is solid state? Dv tapes will be around for a long while. It's not like buying a turntable just as LPs are being stopped (showing my age here).

I do see some reasons for solid state or HDD formats, mainly if you don't edit, and want to access a specific clip quickly, they are much better. But if you want to edit, you need to watch what you have shot (and really you can only watch in real time).

With some (and I'm not saying this is you JustinL), it seems to be a "fashion" statement... "I don't want to buy something my mates will think is old fashioned". And I guess I can understand that logic to an extent... but to me until non-tape cams are better, I'm happy with tape... especially as tape gives you an instant reliable backup (just keep the tape).

[gritstone]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

<snip>... but to me until non-tape cams are better, I'm happy with tape... especially as tape gives you an instant reliable backup (just keep the tape).

Newbie question:
Isn't this one of the 'problems' with taking video's - you end up with so much rubbish that you can't find the good stuff?

I've been using a videocam for just a couple of weeks - it seems to me I spent a huge amount of time editing... it's worth it in the end, but the original clips must go in the bin... otherwise in a few months/years I'd be drowning in it.

So, IMHO solid state is the way to go, 'cos it forces you to edit sensibly.

[redsox_mark]

I agree you need to edit, but I don't see it that way. To edit, you need to look at what you have shot. You can do this as you capture, so it offsets the advantage of faster "capture" with solid state.

I edit and create an edited project without the "rubbish". I keep a copy of the edited footage, and that is what I will watch. But I see no harm in keeping the original footage on a tape as a second backup... I can then always re-apply the edits in future. Also (and I have done this), I will sometimes go back and pull out some never released before footage.

I don't want to bore my family or anyone else with hours of rubbish. But as tapes are cheap, I see no harm in keeping the tapes of the unedited footage as a backup or for possible future use. I don't see forcing you to throw away footage as being an advantage.

[redsox_mark]

A few more thoughts....

One of the great things about non-linear editing is it is non-destructive. So if I later decide I've cut to much or the wrong bits I can correct that; nothing is lost forever.

Now there is nothing about solid state editing which forces you to delete clips either... you just have to actively back them up.

[JustinL]

Hmm,

Looks like everyone agrees 100% it is worthwhile upgrading now to a Hi-Def cam. The question is if I go solid state or tape. I won't go down the Hard drive route as then I would stick with tape seeing they would be the same size etc.

I am not worried about the editing as both my Mac and PC are current gen and would be able to handle it. I also have approx 1.5 terrabyte of storage as we speak so not worried about that either!

It looks like the Camera's for me to look at then are the Sony CX6, Panny HDCSD1 or the Sony HDC/5 or 7.

I am not interested in the Canon due to it's looks and ergonomics seeing my wife will be using it as well.

From what I understand to get HD to fit onto mini dv it uses MPEG2 compression, for the solid state the AVCHD is used and will be the format of the future. I am not worried about archiving as such I can easily just transfer to the pc and burn onto DVD. What I guess I need to look at is future proofing etc. I know for the forseeable future tape is secure but will the quality of the AVCHD codec improve over the Mpeg2 used for the tape compression.

Too many questions for me bah why can't things ever be clear cut! I guess I need to start looking into the quality of the camera's as well.

[senu]

Originally Posted by JustinL

Too many questions for me bah why can't things ever be clear cut! I guess I need to start looking into the quality of the camera's as well.

Seems to me you know the answers to quite a few but they dont "fit" No format seems to tick all the boxes

I wonder if price of the convenience of a smaller sized " Advanced" hi definition format like AVCHD is being paid for by both relative difficultly in playing fluidly and editing by todays "standard" machines and software. In absolute terms it only represents an improvement on HDV by file size ( and use of HDD or media cards) , not quality or ease of playback or editing.. yet

Im sure tapes themselves wont last for ever but similarly I just wonder how long AVCHD will actually last itself given the lukewarm attitude to HDV ( which has been around for a while)

Even with HDV there is still a worrying lack of consumer playback media ( disc) like DVD-R to keep the "market" vibrant..Consumer HD DVD or Blu Ray appear to be slow in coming as the Movie industry seems so keen on protecting its revenue that it doesn't mind encouraging the absence of any recordable formats for Hi Def

Its as if we are all being forced to use PS3s, HTPCs or rely on our PCs for "non Hollywood" Hi def playback

[JustinL]

Senu,

Thanks for your reply. I think you are correct. I am probably looking at the worse possible time for upgrading. I think I might wait a couple of months, it seems as you said that it is catchup time.

Panasonic apparently have upgraded the SD1 to SD3 recently, however they have just upgraded the SD3 to SD5. So the time you buy the SD1 there could be 2 further generations out! The Sony cx6 looks interesting as well.

I think over the next few weeks I will keep abreast of developments and see what transpires. I'm sure my macbook pro 2.4ghz santa rosa platform will be able to handle the editing, shame though the software hasn't caught up yet!

What I will say to anyone in my situation is wait for a month or 2 and see what happens unless you are in a desperate need.