The regulars on here will know that I have had problems with maintaining PQ from my firewire captured DV-AVI through edits to a DVD. ( Posts late last year)

I have recently resumed experiments and have found that using Pinnacle 9 I do not seem to get these problems and therefore the problem is with ULead VS 9 that I was using then. OK I am sure it is something to do with settings but in ULVS9 I find settings options are profligate, diverse and often contradictory.

I have also found that editing in Pinnacle although at first sight is not as user freindly as ULVS is actually better and far easier particularly when trying to achieve a frame precise edit.

So I am now ready to resume the process of editing my extensive DV footage that commences with our Millennium party!

However I find that if I import the avi files I originally captured with ULVS9 into Pinnacle I find that I get the following error message:

"This clip uses a non standard frame rate and this may give problems etc"

I find that if I insert the clip onto the timeline then I can do nothing with it and I cannot even play it.

I seem to remember raising this point 6-8 months ago when I first experimented with Pinnacle as an alternative. I think I was told that this was due to ULVS importing in type 1 and Pinnacle only being compatible with type 2.??

I also seem to remember that someone suggested some freeware that would convert type 1 files to type 2 ?

However having searched this and another forum I use very occasionally under my user name I cannot find the info.

Can anyone on here confirm that this is the problem and provide a link to the conversion software? I tried googling and got nowhere. Even Wikipedia search says AVI 1 & 2 is a heart problem!

I do not want to have to spend another nearly 20 hours re-capturing the video if at all possible.

[felix2]

Hi,

Have you still got Ulead Video Studio kicking around? (Probably the best thing to do with it!! ) If so, you can put the DV-AVI clips back into the timeline (as either Type 1 or Type 2) and simply re-export them (again as either Type 1 or Type 2). It'll do it as Smart Render, so should only take say 1/2 or 1/4 (or less) of real time. Did you originally set Ulead to catpure as Type 1 in the first place? It also seems odd that Pinnacle says it's the wrong frame rate...? With a clip on the time line, check the Properties.

I use Serif MoviePlus which will use either Type 1 or 2 but only export Type 1, so when I've (occasionally) given DV-AVI clips to my friend/colleague who uses Pinnacle, I've had to go via Ulead to change the Type from 1 to 2. If you haven't still got Ulead, wait and see what someone suggests for freeware. HTH.

Ulead VideoStudio will import as type 1 or type 2 depending on what preferences you set - and will edit either type.

You can find a free converter for type 1 to type 2 here :-

http://www.ulead.co.uk/download/dvco...r/download.htm

~

Originally Posted by felix2

Hi,

Have you still got Ulead Video Studio kicking around? (Probably the best thing to do with it!! ) If so, you can put the DV-AVI clips back into the timeline (as either Type 1 or Type 2) and simply re-export them (again as either Type 1 or Type 2). It'll do it as Smart Render, so should only take say 1/2 or 1/4 (or less) of real time. Did you originally set Ulead to catpure as Type 1 in the first place? It also seems odd that Pinnacle says it's the wrong frame rate...? With a clip on the time line, check the Properties.

I use Serif MoviePlus which will use either Type 1 or 2 but only export Type 1, so when I've (occasionally) given DV-AVI clips to my friend/colleague who uses Pinnacle, I've had to go via Ulead to change the Type from 1 to 2. If you haven't still got Ulead, wait and see what someone suggests for freeware. HTH.

Thanks for ideas but my main problem with Ulead VS is that I can never seem to get it to smart render. I found that if I imported DV-AVI, edited, and saved result as DV-AVI then even the PQ of the edited DV-AVI was worse than the original. I believe this was because ULVS insisted on recoding. This does not seem to happen in Pinnacle

[felix2]

That seems odd. I just tried it this morning in Ulead ver 10+ (I'd previously used ver 8), and it took a Type 1 (captured in Serif) onto the timeline of a new project, rendered out to 'PAL DV' with its automatic settings and bingo!

If you put one of your 'raw' captured DV-AVI clips onto the timeline of a new project file in Ulead, what project settings does it say? (Right click on the clip and 'Properties')

I've got:
Microsoft AVI files - Open DML
Frame Rate - 25 fps
Data rate - 3515.63 kBps
Video compression - DV video encoder - Type I
24 bits, 720x576, 4:3
File size - 189074 KB / Duration - 53.760 seconds / 1,344 frames
Audio - DV Audio PAL
48.000 kHz, 16 bit, stereo / 2,580,480 samples

Originally Posted by felix2

That seems odd. I just tried it this morning in Ulead ver 10+ (I'd previously used ver 8), and it took a Type 1 (captured in Serif) onto the timeline of a new project, rendered out to 'PAL DV' with its automatic settings and bingo!

If you put one of your 'raw' captured DV-AVI clips onto the timeline of a new project file in Ulead, what project settings does it say? (Right click on the clip and 'Properties')

I've got:
Microsoft AVI files - Open DML
Frame Rate - 25 fps
Data rate - 3515.63 kBps
Video compression - DV video encoder - Type I
24 bits, 720x576, 4:3
File size - 189074 KB / Duration - 53.760 seconds / 1,344 frames
Audio - DV Audio PAL
48.000 kHz, 16 bit, stereo / 2,580,480 samples

Ive got virtually identical except bit rate slightly higher and audio is 32khz 12 bit which is default on my (very early) DV camcorder

Edit just noticed something strange - On checking through more captured files I noticed that as the length of the file increased out to a max of the expected 11-12 GB as the time approached 1 hr then the reported data rate fell in proportion such that for say a 10 mins file the data rate was 3500kBps for 30 mins it was 2500 and at 55 mins 1600! I very seldom use LP mode so that is not an explanation. Is this normal?

Originally Posted by Brian110507

Ulead VideoStudio will import as type 1 or type 2 depending on what preferences you set - and will edit either type.

You can find a free converter for type 1 to type 2 here :-

http://www.ulead.co.uk/download/dvco...r/download.htm

~

Many thanks just tried the converter and it seems to work fine. seems strange to use a UL freebee so I can edit in their competitors software!

[felix2]

Originally Posted by Analogue

just noticed something strange - On checking through more captured files I noticed that as the length of the file increased out to a max of the expected 11-12 GB as the time approached 1 hr then the reported data rate fell in proportion such that for say a 10 mins file the data rate was 3500kBps for 30 mins it was 2500 and at 55 mins 1600! I very seldom use LP mode so that is not an explanation. Is this normal?

That seems odd too! The captured DV-AVI clips should all be same fixed bitrate (give or take a little bit)...

Originally Posted by Analogue

Many thanks just tried the converter and it seems to work fine. seems strange to use a UL freebee so I can edit in their competitors software!

Glad you seem to have managed to get it working. Hey, we all use different bits of different software for different tasks. If it's free, all the better! If it's free and you're using it to use a competitor's program, all more more ironic!

Originally Posted by felix2

That seems odd too! The captured DV-AVI clips should all be same fixed bitrate (give or take a little bit)...

Thats what I thought too...?

Originally Posted by felix2

Glad you seem to have managed to get it working. Hey, we all use different bits of different software for different tasks. If it's free, all the better! If it's free and you're using it to use a competitor's program, all more more ironic!

Have just found that althogh the converter has apparently facility to batch convert several files it falls over after the first one! Tried this twice - IMHO typical of UL software. My VS 9 often crashed for no apparent reason. Oh well one at a time is at least quicker than recapturing from tape!

Be interesting to compare data rates of the converted files when Ive done a few, both in UL and also Pinnacle

[807]

Hi Analogue !

Try GSpot "Codec information appliance" - available for free- HERE

It's an excellent little program that tells you all it can about the .avi file you point it at.

- I use it to compare between what will play and what won't !

807

Originally Posted by 807

Hi Analogue !

Try GSpot "Codec information appliance" - available for free- HERE

It's an excellent little program that tells you all it can about the .avi file you point it at.

- I use it to compare between what will play and what won't !

807

I have been looking at some of my captured files using this programme and have discovered something I cannot explain.

All my firewire captures through Pinnacle irrespective of length give virtually the same data rate 28800 kbps (bits!). My shorter 2-3 minute captures using Ulead VS also give this same data rate.

However with the longer captured files with ULVS the data rate decreases with time so that for example on a 54m 39 sec file the data rate is reported to be only 12073kbps. On this longer file Gspot reports total file length as 11.3 GB but gives a warning that there are "6.38GB of unneeded bytes at end of file". Now by my calculation 54m 39secs at 12073kbps should occupy 4.92GB which when subtracted from 11.3 GB gives 6.38 GB! The figures are variable but this is the same for my ULVS captures of an length.

I have also found that files captured with Pinnacle in "DV Quality"via my analogue capture device from my VCR give a similar report in G spot with similar unneeded bytes and decreasing data rate with time.

Can any one explain this? I cannot see that I am doing anything wrong as there are very few options in firewire capture mode in either Pinnacle or ULVS.

Sorry to bump this but as I posted just before big forum switch off yesterday evening/ early this morning was concerned that it had dropped from view! Was hoping for some observations from previous posters on this thread or other experts.

[felix2]

I really don't know what's going on there. Your firewire capture in Pinnacle (and the shorter clips in Ulead) is the result I'd expect from any DV-AVI file of any length, i.e. 28.8 Mbps.

I don't get why there are so-called 'unneeded' bytes of data in the larger Ulead files & the Pinnacle files captured from analogue, which seem to give the lower 'useful' bitrate but still altogether add up to 28.8. (Have I understood that right? The actual files still work out at 13 GB/hr in total?) Unless it's compressed to something else, I always thought that DV-AVI (at standard resolution & frame rate) is 28.8, all of which is used / 'needed'.

Does GSpot give any help / background info on its results, either with the program or on the website? I suppose if it works and the quality looks right then it's OK...? I think it's going to take someone who understands compression more than me (not difficult!!) to explain this.

Originally Posted by felix2

I really don't know what's going on there. Your firewire capture in Pinnacle (and the shorter clips in Ulead) is the result I'd expect from any DV-AVI file of any length, i.e. 28.8 Mbps.

I don't get why there are so-called 'unneeded' bytes of data in the larger Ulead files & the Pinnacle files captured from analogue, which seem to give the lower 'useful' bitrate but still altogether add up to 28.8. (Have I understood that right? The actual files still work out at 13 GB/hr in total?) Unless it's compressed to something else, I always thought that DV-AVI (at standard resolution & frame rate) is 28.8, all of which is used / 'needed'.

Does GSpot give any help / background info on its results, either with the program or on the website? I suppose if it works and the quality looks right then it's OK...? I think it's going to take someone who understands compression more than me (not difficult!!) to explain this.

Thanks for your comments - yes you have got it right!

The problem is I have never been happy with the captured DV quality particularly when it is edited and burnt to DVD in ULVS and I have found just recently that in longer analogue captures using Pinnacle in DV quality mode also exhibit poor quality. I captured 2 hours of the Monaco Grand Prix using this mode and got a 26GB file but the replay quality was dreadful with what looked like low bitrate mpeg artefacts . For example in the pre race grid interviews the ITV logo on Martin Brundles microphone was virtually illegible and surrounded by fizz artefacts. Unfortunately I have deleted this file so cannot check it with GSpot.

At least on analogue capture one can play around with the settings so will experiment further.

I cannot find any help for Gspot unfortunately. I might try posting this problem in the computer software sub forum.

OK this is beginning to cause me a headache!

An update!

Firstly a major correction I DO get the same problem capturing DV by firewire in Pinnacle! Problem was that all DV captures I had made previously in Pinnacle were less than 22 mins 45 secs! So it is the same as firewire captures in ULVS!

What I have found is as follows. If any capture from either firewire or analogue in DV mode is less than 22 mins 45 secs or thereabouts then the bit rate is 28800 kbps. Over that time then the bit rate starts to fall. Over 22 mins 45 secs the bit rate always equals 4.92GB divided by time in secs.

All file sizes are reported as 13 GB per hour.

Gspot reports any file over 22 mins 45 secs as having "unneeded bytes at the end of the file.

The "unneeded bytes" are always the excess over a fixed 4.92 GB and the reported file length at 13GB per hour.

The bit rates reported by G-spot are confirmed by other software including "hover over" details.

It almost seems that what ever I do in capture mode the system/software seems to pre-compress the incoming data to fit a 4.92GB file although leaving the chaff in place to fill a 13GB/hr file. (even a 30Gb file had only 4.92GB of "useful data in it resulting in very poor quality)

Is this caused by other settings on my PC? If so where!

[felix2]

I was about to say I can't help because I haven't got any DV-AVI clips longer than about 5 minutes... when I realised I have got an 80 minute clip sitting on my external hard disk. After checking its properties in the Ulead VS timeline, my conclusion - I've got no idea what's going on, but I don't think it's something to worry about.

The clip is 4844 seconds and is just over 17GB (just under 13 GB/hr).
Ulead says the bitrate is only 945 kBps = 7560 kbps
(compared with all the shorter clips which are 3515 kBps = 28120 kbps).
Using that bitrate, the 'useful' file size should only be around 4.6 GB.
Which I guess would mean the so-called 'unneeded' bytes = 12.4 GB (or 20560 kbps)! (Haven't actually installed GSpot to check)

Incidentally, it's a Type 1 file, captured in Serif, on someone else's PC. The quality of the video is perfect, and every piece of software treats it as a normal full quality DV-AVI file. Interestingly, exporting short clips from it - in either Serif or Ulead - gives output DV-AVI files back to "28120 kbps" again - meaning that bitrate must really have been there after all!

A quirk of how Microsoft AVI files analyse their bitrates? Possibly left over from the old FAT32 4GB filesize limit? I don't know, but seems to work fine here. I reckon the Ulead jerky encoding to MPEG is a different problem.

Originally Posted by felix2

I was about to say I can't help because I haven't got any DV-AVI clips longer than about 5 minutes... when I realised I have got an 80 minute clip sitting on my external hard disk. After checking its properties in the Ulead VS timeline, my conclusion - I've got no idea what's going on, but I don't think it's something to worry about.

The clip is 4844 seconds and is just over 17GB (just under 13 GB/hr).
Ulead says the bitrate is only 945 kBps = 7560 kbps
(compared with all the shorter clips which are 3515 kBps = 28120 kbps).
Using that bitrate, the 'useful' file size should only be around 4.6 GB.
Which I guess would mean the so-called 'unneeded' bytes = 12.4 GB (or 20560 kbps)! (Haven't actually installed GSpot to check)

Incidentally, it's a Type 1 file, captured in Serif, on someone else's PC. The quality of the video is perfect, and every piece of software treats it as a normal full quality DV-AVI file. Interestingly, exporting short clips from it - in either Serif or Ulead - gives output DV-AVI files back to "28120 kbps" again - meaning that bitrate must really have been there after all!

A quirk of how Microsoft AVI files analyse their bitrates? Possibly left over from the old FAT32 4GB filesize limit? I don't know, but seems to work fine here. I reckon the Ulead jerky encoding to MPEG is a different problem.

Thanks Felix2 for your continuing interest. Seems like you are observing similar characteristics at least! However I am convinced that the capture quality is decreasing with time - as I said the Monaco GP was horrible!

I think we can now say that it is nothing to do with whether one captures from firewire or via an analogue DV encoder and the same effect is shown capturing in different software packages. (I tried a 30 minute capture in WMM with same result).

My problem with the Ulead editing experience was not jerkiness! I was never 100% happy with the firewire captures (typically 35-55 mins duration) They never looked as good as even the original played via S-Video on a small TV. After editing and saving as DV-AVI where the edited file may have been a combination of bits from several captures and perhaps 90 mins long the replay quality was definitely worse, and if I tried to burn this to DVD the result was a sub VHS standard copy of what was an an excellent DV original. Have not taken it this far with pinnacle yet where only long capture over 20 mins was Monaco GP which on replay as I said was horrible!

I am going to compare straight captures at 20 mins 30 mins 1 Hr and 2hrs from same source and report back.

[felix2]

Curiouser and curiouser.

When it comes to the capture, I've never had any problems at all with quality loss in either program capturing to DV-AVI, even though they both seem to give this 'unneeded bytes' wrong bitrate. Re-exporting as DV-AVI I've still not noticed any loss of quality, either with Ulead (which I think literally just copies the bits of one file into another as it 'Smart Renders') or with Serif (which I think 're-renders' frame by frame 'without loss', at about real time on my computer). And as I mentioned, the exported short clips (from both programs) revert to saying the correct bitrate, which means the right amount of data was there for each frame to start with.

You really shouldn't be getting anything worse than the original on the DV tape when you capture to the PC as DV-AVI (or anything apparently worse than the original analogue input, as long as the analogue capture device, PC and hard disk etc are up to it). And when you re-export as DV-AVI, you shouldn't be getting anything perceptibly worse than what you put in (there might be a slight but insignificant deterioration especially with titles etc).

The problem I had with Ulead (ver 8) was encoding to DVD, which was very jerky with any movement - I've heard a few others complain of the same thing. (I gave up on trying different settings and generally stick to my favourite DVD Movie Factory.)

Only other thought is you mentioned a warning message somewhere that it was the wrong frame rate to import into Pinnacle? Have you anywhere along the way inadvertently used NTSC or 30 fps (or any other frame rate), for capturing, or for project settings, or as the program's standard for DV-AVI export? That may cause everything to re-render (although shouldn't be worse for longer clips)...

PS. What do you want to record the Monaco Grand Prix for? I've always been a big Alonso fan, but I still preferred the last 2 results!

Originally Posted by felix2

Curiouser and curiouser.

When it comes to the capture, I've never had any problems at all with quality loss in either program capturing to DV-AVI, even though they both seem to give this 'unneeded bytes' wrong bitrate. Re-exporting as DV-AVI I've still not noticed any loss of quality, either with Ulead (which I think literally just copies the bits of one file into another as it 'Smart Renders') or with Serif (which I think 're-renders' frame by frame 'without loss', at about real time on my computer). And as I mentioned, the exported short clips (from both programs) revert to saying the correct bitrate, which means the right amount of data was there for each frame to start with.

You really shouldn't be getting anything worse than the original on the DV tape when you capture to the PC as DV-AVI (or anything apparently worse than the original analogue input, as long as the analogue capture device, PC and hard disk etc are up to it). And when you re-export as DV-AVI, you shouldn't be getting anything perceptibly worse than what you put in (there might be a slight but insignificant deterioration especially with titles etc).

The problem I had with Ulead (ver 8) was encoding to DVD, which was very jerky with any movement - I've heard a few others complain of the same thing. (I gave up on trying different settings and generally stick to my favourite DVD Movie Factory.)

Only other thought is you mentioned a warning message somewhere that it was the wrong frame rate to import into Pinnacle? Have you anywhere along the way inadvertently used NTSC or 30 fps (or any other frame rate), for capturing, or for project settings, or as the program's standard for DV-AVI export? That may cause everything to re-render (although shouldn't be worse for longer clips)...

PS. What do you want to record the Monaco Grand Prix for? I've always been a big Alonso fan, but I still preferred the last 2 results!

Again Felix 2 many thanks for your interest in problem.

As I said I will compare 20 min/30min/60/120min captures from similar high quality source (BBCnews 24 on DVB-T)

Thre is no doubt that if stick with short (Apparently less than 23 mins approx) captures then everything works fine. Also if I import a 2hr + commercial (unencripted sunday paper freebee) DVD and compress and copy this to a 4.7GB recordable using say DVD shrink the end result is a great DVD.

Sorry no possibility of NTSC (A bit less than 30fps these days I notice!) or other 30fps formats.

I recorded the Monaco GP as I regard it as the ultimate driver test as there is far less margin for error and I thought that LH might get his first win! However I have never seen a driver as cool as LH, nor one who looks so fit and less tired after a GP. His performance in the last 2 races has been exemplary and unmatched by any I have seen before and I go back to Fangio v Moss!

[felix2]

Originally Posted by Analogue

Sorry no possibility of NTSC (A bit less than 30fps these days I notice!) or other 30fps formats.

Hey, what's 0.03 fps between friends!

Originally Posted by Analogue

I recorded the Monaco GP as I regard it as the ultimate driver test as there is far less margin for error and I thought that LH might get his first win! However I have never seen a driver as cool as LH, nor one who looks so fit and less tired after a GP. His performance in the last 2 races has been exemplary and unmatched by any I have seen before and I go back to Fangio v Moss!

Seriously, I really enjoy Monaco too. Very slim chance of overtaking, but a real test of "steady" (can you be steady in an F1 car?) reliable, while still pushing it to the edge, stamina and concentration. Yes, LH seems to have all the coolness of Raikkonen, all the "drive" and composure of Schumacher, and the passion of certain unmentionable drivers! - all with technical expertise that's way beyond a 7-race-starter rookie! (I only go back as far as Senna and Mansell & co).