[Sparkmeister]

I've compared to the specs of the HC5 and HC7 on the Sony website. On Amazon they cost £612 and £799 respectively.

I can't really see where the extra £200 is going to if you go for the HC7 - or am I being stupid?

Anyone know where you can get these models cheaper still?

[redsox_mark]

The main features of the HC7 over the HC5 are:

- Optical vs. Electronic Image Stabilisation
- External mic input and headphone jack
- Cam Control dial (makes it easier to use manual controls like manual focus)
- 6 MP stills vs. 4 MP

It depends on your use if it is worth it or not. I'd say for casual home use, where the built in mic is fine and you shoot on auto, there is little advantage to the HC7.

If you are doing any kind of "semi-pro" work with it, like shooting weddings, school plays, etc, then these features (especially the mic and Cam control) are worth it.

[felix2]

Today's price at Purely Gadgets is £714.95 inc. postage for the HC7 (£578.95 for the HC5). Many people seem to be happy with their service, and they include their own 18-month warranty, but some of their models are reckoned to be 'grey imports', although whether that's an issue or not I don't know (but had better find out before I buy one myself!).

[Sparkmeister]

Thanks for the advice both - much appreciated. The HC7 is more tempting at that price. I'm not even semi pro but I care a lot about sound quality as much as picture.

[Ixnay]

How will these 2 compare in low light? Would it be noticable, or to put it another way, would it be £150+ noticable.

Also how does the digital compare to the optical image stabilisation. I understand the mechanical difference, but again would this be something to worry about?

[redsox_mark]

If anything I'd expect the HC5 to be better in low light (less pixels on a similar sized sensor), but I don't think there is a big difference.

OIS should be better than EIS, but the difference is only likely to be noticable in low light. My HC1 has EIS and I find it acceptable.

[felix2]

Well I've finally got the Sony HDR-HC7E! I've had it for a week, but have hardly had much of a chance to test much filming with it yet... But I just thought I'd share my initial thoughts...

I initially agonised between the Canon HV20 and Sony HC7 when they first came out - I actually marginally preferred the image on the Canon from samples online, especially some of the really low-light stuff. But I'm unlikely to want to use 25p, and need a camcorder that can be reliably used day-in day-out, is easy to use and good to handle, and has reasonably good onboard sound (as well as a mic input).

I got my HC7 from ebuyer last week with next day delivery (complete with mains cable, just waiting for Sony to send through a registration number as no manufacturer's warranty card), and a 256MB Pro Duo memory stick for the stills. I've also got a spare medium battery (NP-FH70) & Sony Premium mini DV tapes from Amazon along with a very nice Lowepro weatherproof soft case (Apex 140AW) - it fits very nicely along with 2 tapes and batteries and a few other bits and pieces, I just wish the case was a bit longer and less tall, but there's room to stuff my vocal mic & cable in the top anyway.

Just from the first few minutes of filming, I already notice a difference in the way I have to handle HDV. Firstly, presumably because of the long-GOP compression, I find I have to allow just a tiny bit of extra time at the start and end of shots. Also, it does seem to pick up handheld wobble more noticeably (even with the OIS on, which seems pretty smooth but not overcooked) - so I've also got a Velbon UP-4DX ii video monopod, which is very solid for a small cam but very portable too. So I think a lot of my filming now, when not using a tripod for fixed stuff, will use the monopod, either on the ground, or "unextended" as a sort of brace to hold the cam steady with both hands (both methods seem to help quite a bit) - and will go completely handheld rather less often. I've already also seen the cam struggle slightly with getting the autofocus right quickly when zoomed in, just occasionally.

But that brings me to some of my favourite bits about the cam. Spot focus (touch the screen and it auto-focuses on that point) and spot exposure meter (ditto with exposure, ideal for filming something in front of a bright window) are both great tricks. And I personally find the touch screen menu a pleasure to use, especially since it can be customised with the "P-menu". Believe it or not though, I have already taken to using a clean lint-free cloth to touch the screen, otherwise it was going to keep getting covered in smears all the time. (I don't know what's worse, rhubarbe, my greasy fingers or your heavy breathing! ).

Much as I liked my Panasonic GS180 (and would still gladly recommend the range), I do actually feel more confident about the exposure and white balance of the HC7 (or any Sony I've tried), - I never quite felt I could rely 100% on the GS180 for its auto settings. I'm actually almost surprised (pleasantly) with the neutral looking colours I seem to have got on the HC7 - I was worried they might be a little too saturated, but the green grass on last weekend's footage does show it to have been a typical overcast, slightly dull day!! But colour, and AE setting, AWB setting & sharpness can all be adjusted to suit anyway.

Thankfully my first 3 minutes' footage have transferred to PC by firewire (downconverted to DV) with no problems, Windows XP (SP2) recognised the cam no problems. The picture does look very nice... I'm sure the superlatives will start to roll when I next transfer some HDV or use HDMI into a HDTV.

I also like its "grid of 1/3s" guidelines, the zoom is nice to use, and it's got exposure zebras and histogram, and (occasionally) useful AE modes - as well as the super slowmo, IR (super) nightshot, S-video (for live analogue mixing), high res stills, and LANC control input, none of which I haven't tried properly yet. And the xvColor thing (?!).

In an ideal world, I wish it had: focus assist (magnify &/or peaking), &/or a larger / higher res LCD, although the 2.7" widescreen LCD on there is clear; possibly a manual focus ring - although the spot focus and touchscreen +/- and little cam control dial are possibly all you need on such a small cam anyway (it's good the dial can be assigned to exposure and other settings too); possibly AV-in; and cheaper batteries and a standard shoe fixing. Although the HC7 allows independent manual shutter speed and exposure settings, I really do still prefer Panasonic's clear method of setting the exposure - changing aperture size until fully open and then adding gain (both with actual numbers), rather than an uncalibrated sliding 'exposure' scale - especially when the HC7 will tell you the aperture and gain when you play it back! But these are minor quibbles - I'll enjoy using this cam, and will enjoy hopefully getting some great results soon! (I'll let you know when I've watched it in HD)

Just one quick question (if anyone's still reading!!) - would anyone recommend a filter (UV / ND etc) as a lens protector, always on? Especially as the filter thread is outside of the automatic lens cap?

[redsox_mark]

Congratulations on your HC7.

My HC1 also has that delay when you take it off of standby... sometimes it's just a half a second or so (explained by the GOP)... sometimes it's a couple of seconds.

For filters I use a B&W multicoated UV filter like this
https://www.harrisoncameras.co.uk/pr...?productid=592
Though I think the HC7 may be 30mm. Not sure how to deal with the autolens cap?

[felix2]

Thanks Mark, that filter looks good - I assume it's fine for HD? (if you're using it!!)

The HC7 is 37mm too, but with the filter screw being right on the outside and the auto lens cap being inside it, I think the filter's actually more likely to get scratched than anything happening to the lens if I don't have one. Maybe I should consider getting one which I keep safe and only put on when I'm actually filming anywhere that the extra protection would be handy?

[senu]

Congratulations.. and thanks for sharing that.. .
It sounds like a pretty decent piece of kit .. and for the money very keenly priced
If it is anything like the HC 1, colour ( adjustable) will err on the side of conservative
The HC1 has a hood which is handy for preventing flare and protecting the lens

[redsox_mark]

That filter (or any other high quality, multi-coated filter) will work fine on a HD camcorder. I think you'll have to experiment with how it works with the auto lens cap.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

That filter (or any other high quality, multi-coated filter) will work fine on a HD camcorder. I think you'll have to experiment with how it works with the auto lens cap.

Thanks. I'll probably leave it just for now, as I think it would be more trouble than it's worth keeping it on all the time - but will certainly keep it in mind, and just won't film toooo near the beach in the meantime (difficult in sunny Felixstowe! )

Originally Posted by senu

Congratulations.. and thanks for sharing that.. .
It sounds like a pretty decent piece of kit .. and for the money very keenly priced
If it is anything like the HC 1, colour ( adjustable) will err on the side of conservative
The HC1 has a hood which is handy for preventing flare and protecting the lens

Thanks. Did a bit more filming yesterday, with lovely sun and blue skies - and got to watch it back on a friend's 42" Pioneer plasma, direct via HDMI.

Wow!!!!!

For the jaw-droppingly crisp, sharp resolution, direct into the telly it beat any of the upscaling options of SD digital broadcast (by the time they'd got to the screen)! Exposure and contrast range, greens of leaves and grass, and the clear blue sky, as well as interior shots, really are better than I could have imagined from such a small (and good value - it's a lot of money to me too, but still only half the price of the next ones up in the range) cam. I'm just everso slightly holding back a tiny reservation on the reds and oranges at the moment, which sometimes possibly come out a little 'pinker' than I might imagine - but it might simply be the cam's own LCD (which I've read elsewhere benefits from a tweak of the contrast / brightness to do the recorded pictures better justice), as I haven't yet filmed a red geranium or post box and played it back on the telly with the subject still there for comparison. I might also experiment slightly with the cam's 'Colour Level' setting. The spot focus is excellent for e.g. interviews (a very quick way to get spot-on fixed manual focus), and manual exposure worked a treat. I've still got some getting used to, to do... The unextended monopod worked brilliantly as a brace for 'handheld' interview type stuff, and the footage looked very smooth, but wasn't so successful e.g. for slow pans or tilts on buildings and landscape, where hand-shake still came through a bit too much - they'll definitely be rest-the-monopod-on-the-ground jobs, or preferably full tripod jobs to do it properly.

I did see a hood recommended for the HC7 somewhere recently (can't remember where!), but that might be a good idea for a Christmas list, just to take the edge off any flare. But it wouldn't fit in my new case with that on!!!

[rhubarbe]

Nice to see some positive news on this cam that has been overshadowed in its sector by the HV20. CCI panned it but then again, it's a Sony so they would do, wouldn't they?

[felix2]

I found the CCI reviews a bit odd really. When I read them through, I thought the overall tone of the HV20 review was far more positive than the HC7's. But when you actually look at the words themselves (and the scores) they are very close indeed - when they weren't all saying different things!!

e.g. for picture quality, "there is a clear winner - the HV20... In the lab, the HV20 and HC7 raced to a virtual dead heat, ...yet the Canon's picture struck us as decidedly sharper than ...the HC7 in the field" ...but doesn't appear to be a decider in summing up comparing the 2 in the actual reviews...

for lowlight performance, the HC7 "matched the HV20 almost exactly in terms of sensitivity, noise, color accuracy, and saturation. Producing a decent image at 7 lux is no small feat for a consumer camcorder. We expect this to remain among the best performances of the year." And the HV20's "60 lux image looked similar to the HC7 in terms of color reproduction, though the HV20 appeared a little richer. HV20 clearly edged out HC7 in sharpness, and also produced a cleaner image in the dark greys and blacks. Sony’s blacks were too noisy... They produced the same level of sensitivity... and had the same mean color error." But "...There was a also major qualitative difference in how the image looked. Compared to the HV20 in both 1080i and 24P, the HC7's 1080i had considerably more noise. There was really no contest. The Canon HV20 won, hands down." urm...??? Then it's only in 24p that they say they HV20 runs ahead on lowlight, but that then has its own issues.

for "manual control effectiveness... the HC7 comes out on top", but they slammed the HC7's cam control dial at length (more so than the HV20's equivalent).

The HV20 for its non-proprietory memory card, non-proprietory accessory shoe, "...joystick, onboard video light, ... (although it) doesn't offer up quite the level of control the HC7 does, it gives you ...Focus Assist, 3 lux low light performance in 24p - the choice should be clearer than a Windexed crystal... and sets you back $200 less"

Personally I don't see the pros and cons quite so one-way, especially when the price is now around the same. This isn't to try to pick holes in CCI reviews, I think it more shows how close the 2 cams are (probably rather closer than the rumours suggest!), and each buyer has to choose the features / advantages that matter to them.

[rhubarbe]

You haven't mentioned the viewfinder either, have you? They slated the HV20 'finder and praised that of the Sony.

I like the HC7 for the build quality, the finder, and the handling, but it costs way more when you want an NTSC version.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

You haven't mentioned the viewfinder either, have you? They slated the HV20 'finder and praised that of the Sony.

'Tis true, 'tis true.

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

I like the HC7 for the build quality, the finder, and the handling, but it costs way more when you want an NTSC version.

Fair cop, they're both £700 for PAL round 'ere!

[rhubarbe]

Cor blimey, guv! 700 quid? Glad I bought an HDTV.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Cor blimey, guv! 700 quid? Glad I bought an HDTV.

Glad I bought mine from ebuyer on the morning that they were selling the HC7 cheaper than the HC5! Yikes, very glad I bought it when I did, ebuyer's price is now £930!! And Amazon are still charging £749 while their HV20 has come down again to under £680. Very strange.

[rhubarbe]

What's the motor noise like? HC7

[felix2]

To be honest I haven't tried it in the worst possible conditions yet (small closed silent room with all hard surfaces), but filming in a manor house with oak panelling, I can't hear any motor noise at all - even with the audio turned up on playback on the PC to +12dB (where all I can hear is gentle distant footsteps from 2 or 3 rooms away) - same as on a Panasonic DX110 my friend was filming with on the same afternoon.

[rhubarbe]

Garn.

You live in a manor house with oak panelling? No wonder you can afford a £700 PAL HC7.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

You live in a manor house with oak panelling? No wonder you can afford a £700 PAL HC7.

Errr... not quite lol Took the ferry over the River Deben to Bawdsey Manor's open day on Saturday, marking the 70th anniversary of RAF Bawdsey starting up as the first fully operational RADAR station in the world and the curcial pioneering research carried out there by Dr Robert Watson-Watt and others from 1936 (after the first trials in Daventry and then Orfordness further up the Suffolk coast). It's interesting round here, y'know!

Actually I live in ideal conditions for testing motor noise (i.e. small closed silent room with all hard surfaces), just haven't filmed anything here yet!!!

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by felix2

Actually I live in ideal conditions for testing motor noise (i.e. small closed silent room with all hard surfaces), just haven't filmed anything here yet!!!

HMP Hollesley?

[felix2]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

HMP Hollesley?

Dang! Got me! No wonder I've got spare time to write on here! (If anyone thinks I'm being serious, please note I wouldn't have to go across the Deben on the ferry to get to Bawdsey if I lived in Hollesley... )

[rhubarbe]

hehe.

[ctcrm]

I am looking at the same camera but i dont have HD tv (yet), can i still watch it plugged into a standard crt tube tv?

I usually edit my films on my pc using power director then turn them into dvd's.

Is there any point in going 'HDV' with the quipment ive got now ?

thanks.

Paul

[redsox_mark]

I am looking at the same camera but i dont have HD tv (yet), can i still watch it plugged into a standard crt tube tv?

Yes. You can shoot in HDV, and either:
1. Have the camcorder downconvert to DV, which you edit and turn into a DVD, or
2. Edit the HDV, then convert to standard def MPEG2 for DVD in software.

The advantage of 2) is you can also create a high def master of your edited project and save that to tape for later use.


Is there any point in going 'HDV' with the equipment ive got now ?

Yes. Because:
1. You will eventually get a HDTV. Even if that is 5 years from now... if you get a HDV camcorder the footage you shoot for the next 5 years will be High Def.

2. Whilst you can't get the full experience, even when downconverted to Standard Def the video from these camcorders are very good.

So you'll enjoy good quality video on your TV now; and when you eventually upgrade your TV you'll have a treat in store.

[ctcrm]

thanks for a quick reply

[felix2]

I've only got a standard def CRT telly too, and most of what I do only goes online as 1/2 PAL resolution (only 384 or 512 x 288), or onto standard DVD.

The HC7 has got a raft of output options from the cam:
- in standard def analogue: composite (yellow video phono plug, standard AV connection), S-video, or component (all using red/white phono plugs for audio) - any of which could in theory plug into your TV, VCR or DVD recorder depending on what connections they've got, and possibly needing a SCART adaptor;
- high def analogue: component at 1080i (again with the separate audio) for HDTV;
- digital DV (I-link / firewire) connection, either as high def (if you can find something to plug it into, or for transferring HDV onto the PC for editing in hi def) or downconverted by the camera to standard def (for recording onto set-top DVD recorder, or for transferring onto PC to edit as standard def DV);
- HDMI for digital hi def connection to HDTV.

It even comes with the standard (composite) AV cable, component video cable, and a firewire cable.

To be honest I could quite happily have got a standard mini DV camcorder, but they're as good as non-existent new at that sort of level now. And I'm so pleased with the HDV I won't be looking back. And anything I film now that I want to keep is future-proofed and ready for the world of HD when it eventually catches up with me.

PS: You've also got the option of either filming in HDV (and playing back as HDV or downconverting to standard def), or of filming in DV (either 4:3 or widescreen) in the first place. Although personally I think I'm sticking to filming in HDV, to start off with the best possible.

[ctcrm]

Thanks, i think ive made my mind up now.

xxx