[GSXRMovistar]

Evening all, for the last month I’ve been looking into replacing my ancient Canon MV1 (http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/c.../1998_mv1.html) with a new MiniDV camcorder for capturing clips of my daughter and for use on an upcoming honeymoon.

Only problem is the more I’ve looked into and the more I’ve been reading www.camcorderinfo.com the more confused I am as to what to go for.

The original shortlist was the Sony DCR-HC96 or Panasonic NV GS300 / GS250 with preference going to the Sony as it has AV in and it’s a little lighter.

Although I’m not sure if I’m over spec’ing for what I actually need, original intention was a camera that is small enough to take most places (if it’s too big it won’t get used), captures good quality video (including indoors/low light) and has DV in for putting edited movies back to tape for archive.

With this in mind my second short list is something cheaper like the Sony HC46, Panasonic GS180, or the Canon MV960.

So the question is, is it worth going for one of the slightly more expensive cameras and is there much difference in video quality between the lot of them?

Any help on this with all this is greatly appreciated, thanks.

PS. Any thoughts on the Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD1a? (Yes I know something completely different!)

[GSXRMovistar]

Anyone?

[senu]

Originally Posted by GSXRMovistar

......The original shortlist was the Sony DCR-HC96 or Panasonic NV GS300 / GS250 with preference going to the Sony as it has AV in and it’s a little lighter.

All good choices (if you can find them)

Although I’m not sure if I’m over spec’ing for what I actually need, original intention was a camera that is small enough to take most places (if it’s too big it won’t get used), captures good quality video (including indoors/low light) and has DV in for putting edited movies back to tape for archive.

None of them is that big ( compare to 4-5 years ago they are "tiny")
.Low light abilities increase with price and you may need to be realistic in expectations of Low light abilities at this price point
Be aware that too that "Pocket" camcorders tend to sacrifice other quality parameters in achieving size reduction for your convenience

So the question is, is it worth going for one of the slightly more expensive cameras and is there much difference in video quality between the lot of them?

In general yes although this difference may vary from subtle to quite marked, although the cost difference may also come from features you may or may not find useful. The very marked PQ differences will come with a bit more .. dosh

Any thoughts on the Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD1a? (Yes I know something completely different!)

I personally think ...not in the league of any of the above on your shortlist

Redsox-Mark is our "expert" in these matters I'm sure he'll come along with a more helpful reply.. soon

[GSXRMovistar]

Thanks, really leaning towards the Sony DCR-HC96 at the moment.

[senu]

Originally Posted by GSXRMovistar

Thanks, really leaning towards the Sony DCR-HC96 at the moment.

If you can get the Panasonic GS 250 at a similar price I would seriously consider them side by side

[GSXRMovistar]

The GS250 seems to be rarer than rocking horse poo with a price that reflects this.

I'm even finding the Sony HC96 slightly hard to obtain as most places have been informing me that this model has been discontinued for some time.

Confusing thing is there doesn't appear to be any current models that provide the same features as these.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by GSXRMovistar

I'm even finding the Sony HC96 slightly hard to obtain as most places have been informing me that this model has been discontinued for some time.

Confusing thing is there doesn't appear to be any current models that provide the same features as these.

It has only been in the last couple of weeks that Sony launched new models and moved the HC96 to be an "archived product", so it hasn't been "discontinued for some time". Actually I had seen an announcement from Sony USA that the HC96 was going to continue to be a current model in 2007, but it seems not so for the UK. Anyway you should still be able to find a HC96, several places show it in stock
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/sound-a.../548648/prices

The reason you are seeing less features in new DV models is that manufactuers are focussing more and more on other formats: In SD HDD and DVD formats plus some solid state; and increasingly HD formats (HDV and AVCHD).

In terms of comparing quality of a HC96/GS300 (which are similar to eachother) with say the Canon MV930/960 - is hard to describe. I'd describe the difference as significant but not great. It depends on how critical your eye is, and what you are displaying it on. If you are watching on a small screen you may not be able to tell much difference; on a 50 inch plasma the inperfections will show up more. The Canon MV range is good value for money.

Canon also has new models coming out (replacing the MV range). Panasonic is also launching new DV models but I don't have details on those.

[GSXRMovistar]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

.....

Thanks for the info.

I went out this morning and took a look at a few cameras for size etc, found the Panasonics (gs250/300) to be too big so they are now off the list.

Updated shortlist is now down to these,

Canon MV960 - £255
Canon MVX460 - £320
Sony HC96 - £380

They seem to pretty much share the same features so I'm guessing it's going to come down to quality vs value for money.

Arrragghhh decisions decisions!

[GSXRMovistar]

Okay after yet more reading I'm now going in a different direction and looking at a Hi-Def camera, in particular the Canon HV10.

It seems to have everything I'm looking for (DV/AV in, small size, good battery), the question is, is there any reason I shouldn't opt for this camera?

[redsox_mark]

The HV10 is a fine camcorder, so there is no reason not to get it, but 2 things to consider:

1. It does not have a HDMI jack (which it's rival HC3 does).

2. The small size goes with the "matchbox" or "upright" style, which many find less confortable to hold and shoot with. But if very small size is important to you this may be OK.

Note the new HV20 addresses both the above points.

The others (which I assume you have considered) are the Sony HC3/5/7. They all have HDMI, but they don't have AV input.

[GSXRMovistar]

Thats cool then, not too fussed by the HDMI port as all footage will go via the PC first.

And the shape/comfort thing I'm happy to live with as size is one of the main critrea.

Probably go ahead and order from EmpireDirect as it's appears to be the cheapest place (£690) unless anyone else knows of somewhere cheaper.

[redsox_mark]

That's the cheapest I've seen in the UK. You may be able to get it a bit cheaper on ebay importing from US or China; though the US models will be NTSC when used in DV mode, and you have to deal with VAT or not....

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by GSXRMovistar

PS. Any thoughts on the Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD1a? (Yes I know something completely different!)

I cant help, but it is an area I am interested in. Panasonic do a similar unit with 3 CCDs.....have a look at Camcorderinfo there is a review and its pretty good. I dont think that these camcorders are as good as something like a Sony HD unit, but they are beginning to close the gap and as memory prices become cheaper (2GB is only £12.00) and increase in size (already at 4GB) these are probably going to take over the budget end of the Camcorder range.

[senu]

An opinion : part fact / part gut feeling:

The Solid state media based camcorders are going one step further with the convenience of tapeless recording.

There are very high end broadcast standard implementations by Sony and Panasonic but at the level of the Sanyo Xacti the IQ compromises and inability to do much with the footage are a for me. Plus the media are not VFM

I guess Im not alone as they are not really that popular for the same reason.
I think the manufacturers are testing the waters and for early adopters that cold be a good .. or very bad thing as they may end up with "lemons"
Spend with care

[redsox_mark]

The Xacti VPC-HD1a is the cheapest "camcorder" that calls itself HD... other than that.....

Panasonic does make a couple of good consumer cams which record to SD cards - the SD SDR-S150, and the HD/AVCHD HDC-SD1. The only issue with SD cards is the limited size vs. HDD cams. As larger SD cards get more common we'll see more and more solid state camcorders.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

The Xacti VPC-HD1a is the cheapest "camcorder" that calls itself HD... other than that.....

Panasonic does make a couple of good consumer cams which record to SD cards - the SD SDR-S150, and the HD/AVCHD HDC-SD1. The only issue with SD cards is the limited size vs. HDD cams. As larger SD cards get more common we'll see more and more solid state camcorders.

I have another thread asking opinions of the newest Xacti CG6 (not HD), this unit is priced around £225 and has better low light ability than the previous model (or the HD version). There is also an improvement to the anti shake. At this sort of money it becomes realistic.

The issue with editing is unavoidable.......but like all convenient things you end up suffering some down sides. The reality is that I know several people who have a real interest in film making, they take their camcorders everywhere, they have the best editing software and the computers to do it..............guess what........the images just get left on the tape.

My take on Mpeg4 is that you can simply take shorter bits of action and be more selective about what you take, then simply upload it to a website or onto an IPod etc.........everyone can see what you have filmed, regardless if they want to

They are certainly not pro cameras at this price point, but have moved on from being gadgets. As tape gave way to mini disc and mini disc to flash based/hard drive players so enevitably will SD become the convenience device and finally the pros weapon of choice.

I remember an argument about cameras 10 years ago when I said to a friend that digital cameras were the beginning of the end for traditional film cameras. It happened.

Sanyo have stopped making standard video cameras now and are concentrating on flash based devices.

[redsox_mark]

I agree that the future for camcorders is solid state. As much as tape has some advantages for long term storage, "people" see tape as old technology, and they don't like the time required to copy it to their PC. HDD has the edge over SD today because card size, but I expect we will see 16 GB, 32 GB cards before long.

I don't know anything about the Xacti CG6 to say if it is worth £225 or not.

[senu]

I don't think Solid state camcorders have advanced enough in quality , editing support and more importantly industry support to scare tape .. or HDD into oblivion.
Sanyo's support notwithstanding. Sanyo was never a big tape camcorder name ( MiniDV) , the last I heard was analogue so maybe they are trying to strike a newer market while its hot

I am wary of niche formats like microMV or even Sony digital 8 and until I see more support for solid state I will look more fondly at HDD as the tape alternative even though I still think tape is far from dead

Even HD on HDD as AVCHD is not getting the boost in models, editing and push to mainstream that I would have liked quickly enough and the fact that it remains purely consumer ( not even prosumer) makes one wonder how much backing it will get in the longer term.

If good ideas have poor or lukewarm industry support and consumer appeal they die off and those who have invested into them are left holding expensive gadgets

It is true that tapes get left as taped but many end up as DVDs as well but the fact is that Digital cameras still end up with printed photographs just like film.
Similarly, with Solid state devices the footage still has to be watched, this is where editing and putting on DVD ( or HD DVD/BD ) come in.

There is still a need for quality/ convenience otherwise camera phones would have hit traditional camera sales badly

I suspect that for now at least, the flash based camcorders will serve a need , those who just want to record an event with minimum fuss and it will get seen on ipod/ PSP.
The DVD and HDD camcorders will take care of higher quality needs

[redsox_mark]

Senu,

Comparing SD and HDD, the only difference is the storage size and the physical device. A camcorder like the Panasonic SD150 is no more of a risk of being obsolete than a Std Def HDD cam - both are recording to the same DVD compliant MPEG2 format. Because they are limited in size HDD has the edge, but if you could buy either a HDD or a SD card based cam, recording to the same format, with the same capacity (let's say 64 GB), wouldn't you want the solid state one? The big advantage being if you fill the card you put in another one.

AVCHD is another matter. I’m not convinced about AVCHD as a format either, but the issue as as much for HDD as it is solid state or DVD.

With standard definition it is clear the trend is away from tape – just compare the number of new DV models vs. the MPEG based DVD/HDD/Solid State cams. With High Def it’s not so clear, as we haven’t had a way to put High Def on these media until very recently.

[senu]

Mark,
The Panasonic SD 150 is one of a kind. There inst really any other quite like it..yet

And as you say one awaits bigger Cards but to put that into perspective: Most low end HDD camcorders have a minimum of 20Gb.. enough to record a decent length before needing to fill it up. Cards have some catching up to do

Unless SD cards get bigger ( and cheaper) fairly quickly, even DVD camcorders may seem more " mainstream"

Im all for any technological advances ( including a tapeless recording future) but I get uncomfortable when I think the big manufacturers are using us as marketing "guinea pigs" as they send mixed messages with their products
I haven't used a film camera now in 5-6 years and don't miss film one bit but the camcorder scene is a whole lot less tidy

[GSXRMovistar]

Went to order a HV10 from EmpireDirect and they have put the price up by £60.

Now looking at http://www.digital-cameras.com/camcorders, any opinions on this retailer?

[redsox_mark]

I bought a digital camera from them for my daugher; I thought their service was good.

[GSXRMovistar]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

I bought a digital camera from them for my daugher; I thought their service was good.

Thanks. Time to break out my cash card.

[GSXRMovistar]

Okay I ordered the HV10 from http://www.digital-cameras.com Tuesday afternoon and turned up first thing yesterday morning, so very impressed with their service.

Only small gripe was that the DV tapes bundled weren't actually certified for HDV use (but hardly a major issue).

First impressions; wow this camera is small, I wasn't expecting it to be big by any means but still wasn't expecting it to be this small/light.

Not had a chance to check out playback on anything other than the camera itself so far but using it is very straight forward and other than some of the more detailed settings the instruction manual just isn't required.

Only negative (from my point of view) is that it takes Micro SD cards rather than standard ones for photo stills meaning I've now got to get one of those also rather than using one of the numerous SD cards i have laying around from other gadgets.

[senu]

Originally Posted by GSXRMovistar

Only small gripe was that the DV tapes bundled weren't actually certified for HDV use (but hardly a major issue).

Any MiniDV tape will do...as you'll find out

Only negative (from my point of view) is that it takes Micro SD cards rather than standard ones for photo stills meaning I've now got to get one of those also rather than using one of the numerous SD cards i have laying around from other gadgets.