Grainy Digitised Results In Liquid Edition

[STORM5.0]

Hi

Thanks to Senu for helping me out in a Liquid burning issue late last year.

I'm looking for some advice on the following matter:-

I have digitised several hours of footage into Liquid Edition 6 via my JVC miniDV camcorder. I was most pleased this worked, since the footage was shot as a college project on an ultra-expensive Panasonic DV cam (a big £7000 machine). I figured I'd try it, since the formats (i.e. miniDV tape) are both the same - though I know there is obviously a vast difference between the internal capabilities of both cameras.

In beginning to edit the footage, it seems there is a lot of grain present. This is most notable in shots with a static background of all one colour. By grain, I mean if you look closely you will see hundreds of tiny pixels moving around very fast. This is only really distracting probably to me because I am staring closely at the footage all day, and one could argue the effect looks quite 'filmlike' in a way... but does anyone have any insight as to why this grain is present?

I'm assuming it is as a result of playing a tape recorded at high quality through a mere camcorder, something to do with the attention to detail which my £250 JVC is lacking? But should the camcorder not play in the same high quality whatever is on the tape, as it was recorded? Or is this simply not possible with cheap equipment?

Anyway, thanks for any info you can provide.

Cheers!

[senu]

Originally Posted by STORM5.0

Hi
...
In beginning to edit the footage, it seems there is a lot of grain present. This is most notable in shots with a static background of all one colour. By grain, I mean if you look closely you will see hundreds of tiny pixels moving around very fast. This is only really distracting probably to me because I am staring closely at the footage all day, and one could argue the effect looks quite 'filmlike' in a way... but does anyone have any insight as to why this grain is present?

I'm assuming it is as a result of playing a tape recorded at high quality through a mere camcorder, something to do with the attention to detail which my £250 JVC is lacking? But should the camcorder not play in the same high quality whatever is on the tape, as it was recorded? Or is this simply not possible with cheap equipment?

Anyway, thanks for any info you can provide.

Hi there

Is it that "grain" present on playback in the camcorder to its lcd only ..or present on the captured footage within Edition

If in Edition have you tried to capture it with something else . , Say like this?

Try playing the tape thru your camcorder via a Display ( like your TV) . Is it present?

There should be nothing added or removed by your camcorder playing back a Mini DV tape recorded elsewhere unless there is a question mark on whether it was recorded progressive and is being played back interlaced ( just an intelligent guess really)

Grain ( digital noise ) in camcorders is usually due to low light levels. After fully opening its iris, the camcorder then tries to make the image well exposed by increasing the sensitivity ( gain) of the sensor to light. This ability to work with lower light levels is at the expense of grain. Camcorders with lower lux ratings ( better low light abilities) tend to have image sensors that are designed to work with lower light levels and still keep good IQ.
However
If manual setting are chosen during recording and they are not right for the index recording, you can get grain even with reasonable light if a fast shutter speed is inadvertently selected
If none of the above applies to you, just ignore it
The next best thing is to see if there is a filter or effect ( like a noise removal one) that can improve the video in a subtle but effective way

[STORM5.0]

I'll investigate these matters further and revert, cheers!

[STORM5.0]

Sorry for delay in replying, I have been so busy with projects.

I have experimented and discovered the following:-

The footage shot on the expensive DVcam plays back via my camcorder to my TV with much less grain than is visible through Liquid Edition. Now I would expect this, since the tape is playing 'directly' to the monitor in this case, without going through 'digitisation' in the 'capture' process. There is still evidence of grain, but like I say it is significantly less. Also, I have tested
footage shot on my camcorder through the TV, which is of course of lesser quality than the bigger camera and I have noted about the same level of difference between cam-to-TV and cam-to-Liquid-to-monitor.

I had a go at capturing through Adobe Premier, but playing clips in this program seems to produce different visual results to Liquid Edition anyway (the picture on the monitor seems to 'move around' more as it is playing), so the level of grain present was difficult to determine. I am not familiar with this software, I might add.

Next I tried capturing through Power Director Express, which again showed a far less defined picture than Liquid Edition, so the grainy area was kind of blurred over anyway. Same with Windows Movie Maker.

Finally I tried WinDV, and scrutinised the resulting AVI file it made of my problem clip. After vigourously comparing this to the same clip through Liquid, I have concluded that both have, to my eye, pretty much the same concentration of grain. Therefore I suppose this eliminates a problem with Liquid Edition.

So is all 'capture and edit' software at the level of Liquid, Adobe etc for the home PC doomed to produce grainy results in the darker areas of the screen? This is quite disappointing, since even with an expensive camera it seems unavoidable... unless you have any further suggestions?

I do not know if my recording would have been made 'progressive' or 'interlaced', or what my preferences would be in Liquid Edition. I've had a look though the Help section and kind of understand the terms, but... how do I find out which of these ways the footage was recorded, and how might I change the 'capture preferences' to suit in Liquid, in case that might make a difference to the grain issue?

Cheers

[STORM5.0]

Just experimented with starting a 'new project' and, in 'advanced settings', tried with 'top field', 'bottom field' and 'not interlaced' meaning I have now captured footage in both 'interlaced' and 'progressive'? Same grainy results in each of the settings.

Another forum member asked me if, quote:-

"What was the model number of the expensive camcorder? Are you sure the format was normal DV 576i or a special fomat like "24p Advanced"?

What method are you using to "capture" into liquid? Normal DV transfer over IEEE-1394?"

I'm not sure what this means, what is DV576i and 24p Advanced? And method I am using to capture into Liquid is i-Link DV (ie Firewire), what is IEEE-1394?

Thanks!

[senu]

Originally Posted by STORM5.0

Another forum member asked me if, quote:-

"What was the model number of the expensive camcorder? Are you sure the format was normal DV 576i or a special fomat like "24p Advanced"?
I'm not sure what this means, what is DV576i and 24p Advanced?

If using a PAL camcorder, you are more than likely shooting at 25 fps ( or 50 fields/sec) ; the 576 refers to horizontal pixels for DV PAL and i for interlaced.
Normal NTSC is 30 frames ( I or P) or 60 fields per sec
The 24p or 24p advanced method used by Panasonics higher end cameras does so in order to get a Film like appearance.
Since film is shot at 24fps , conversion to video rates has to be done for normal DV editing by various methods ( described as pull down etc ) which Im too technically challenged to bother with. This also has to be done for Video shot at 24P

What method are you using to "capture" into liquid? Normal DV transfer over IEEE-1394?"
And method I am using to capture into Liquid is i-Link DV (ie Firewire), what is IEEE-1394?

Firewire, i-link, IEEE1394 are all synonyms for the same thing. Apple coined "firewire", and Sony "i link" . The standard industry name is IEEE1394

HTH
Im not sure of why the footage is "grainy" TBH but most camcorders record as interlaced except very high end ones, and Im a loss as to why you are havy this "grain"
I can only suggest capturing into Liquid as you are currently doing ,with different templates to see the difference , if any

[redsox_mark]

I'll take the easy question - IEEE-1394 same as Firewire, or I-link.

Now I would expect this, since the tape is playing 'directly' to the monitor in this case, without going through 'digitisation' in the 'capture' process

DV recordings are digital. "Capture" simply copies this digital information unchanged (and puts it in a windows based file format). It can't add grain or anything else.

Are you saying that the video looks inferior when viewing it in the editor? This is understandable, as the editor has to process any edits in real time to create this preview (even if you haven't yet applied any edits). Software usually has various quality of display settings you can use for this preview as well. It doesn't effect the actual quality of the video.

With your camcorder can you output back to tape (does it have DV-in)? If so you should be able to prove the capture is working correctly, capture the tape with the editor of your choice, and then output the video unchanged back to tape. If you play the resulting tape it should look the same as the original.

[senu]

Posting along side Mark ( as usual)
apologies for any duplication of info.