Newbie with about £200 to spend

Disdain · 10-01-2007, 6:07 PM

Any advice on what camcorder I should be looking at for around the £200 mark? Will do some indoor filming, the usual holiday stuff and probably some at the Fairford airshow.

I take it MiniDV is the best format to use and easy to copy onto a PC? I only have USB not Firewire.

Any good review sites I can look at too?

**senu** · 10-01-2007, 9:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disdain

Any advice on what camcorder I should be looking at for around the £200 mark? Will do some indoor filming, the usual holiday stuff and probably some at the Fairford airshow.

I take it MiniDV is the best format to use and easy to copy onto a PC? I only have USB not Firewire.

Any good review sites I can look at too?

Im sure camcorder suggestions will come !

All camcorders do badly in low light and the more inexpensive ones even more so. I mention this because of your budget and because of your stated desire to do indoor filming. For holiday stuff and an airshow you'll be al right ( within the limitations of whichever camcorder you get)

MiniDV (arguably ) gets you the "best" starting material for editing .Saying that there are poorly made MiniDV camcorders which dont do the format any justice ( this applies to all formats though)

Unless youll be watching the tapes off the camcorder they will most likely end up as DVDs
It is these DVDs, DVDs from DVD camcorder and HDD recordings that when compared the Quality differences are less

As such there are advantages and disadvantages with all three formats which make none the "best format"

With MiniDV you will need to invest in a Firewire card an Cable ( £10)!

For HDD/DVD your existing USB will suffice

Realistically I think with £200 to spend, you shouldnt be looking at HDD or DVD camcorders as I doubt if any at that price point will give you as much as a MiniDV model will. As your budget increases the competition gets tougher!

HTH

redsox_mark · 10-01-2007, 9:34 PM

DV gives the best quality for the money - especially at your budget level. I suggest the Canon MV 930, or the MV890/MV901.

The most comprehensive review site is http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php
But it is US based so some of the model numbers differ (especially Canon).

US model number mapping

Canon ZR500 (MV890)
Canon ZR600 (MV930)
Canon ZR700 (MV960)

The MV901 is a UK only model, similar to the MV890, slighty better zoom.

Disdain · 11-01-2007, 6:13 PM

Thanks I'll check those out. If I was to stretch to £250 would that give me that much more choice?

Probably out of my budget, but it would be nice to have one that can take photos and has a remote control.

Oh question I did forget to ask is what sort of resolution would these be when copied to the PC. Would you be able to look at them full screen or would they be really blocky? 720x576 is obviously the ideal.....

**senu** · 11-01-2007, 7:58 PM

£250 might get you the photo option and ( if desired DV-in) , a slightly wider choice but I wouldn't stray too far from Marks suggestions

Taking photos is convenient and most will do better than screen resolution if they support this facility ( esp to card)

The resolution is quoted ( in megapixels) and anything more than 2 would be printable at up to 5x7

The resolutions you quote are more like grabs from video. which depending on the mode can equally be good quality and all miniDV camcorders can do that
But in general they will not worry the average still digicam

Disdain · 11-01-2007, 9:22 PM

Thanks Senu. So photo mode isn't much good then on the camera? I guess they would need a flash to actually be useful for indoor shots.

Sorry I was confused there I meant are the videos in 720x576 resolution?

**senu** · 11-01-2007, 9:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disdain

Thanks Senu. So photo mode isn't much good then on the camera? I guess they would need a flash to actually be useful for indoor shots.

Sorry I was confused there I meant are the videos in 720x576 resolution?

Some actually have flash ! ( Although in a bit of a different league, the Sony HC1 certainly does)
In the past I have been scathing about the Still Pic taking abilities of camcorders but to be honest, they may be a life saver for that once in a lifetime image when there is no time to fire up a proper camera .
I never use mine as such but I can see the usefulness.
Also lenses on still Cameras never seem to have the Zoom range of camcorders !

The native dimensions for PAL DV ( and Mpeg2) are 720 X 576.
They would most definetely not be blocky on the PC and definitely not on your TV display played directly from the camcorder.
Higher res than that you are looking at Hi-DEF

redsox_mark · 11-01-2007, 9:52 PM

The Canon MV960 is available online from £235 at a number of places.
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/sound-a.../556040/prices

It uses SD memory cards for stills (choice of 640 x 480 or 1024 x 768). The video itself is obviously 720x576. And has a remote control. Doesn't have a flash but does have a small built in video light. Has DV and AV input.

Disdain · 12-01-2007, 5:59 PM

Cheers guys you've been a great help. That Canon MV960 looks like it might do all I need for a reasonable price.

How much video can you store, is it an hour per tape? Do DVDs hold more?

redsox_mark · 12-01-2007, 6:45 PM

Standard DV tapes are 60 mins. You can record 90 mins on them in long play (no loss of quality, but you may have issues if you try and play the tapes on a different machine).
There are also 80 min tapes (120 min in long play mode).

Camcorder DVDs store only 20 mins (at best quality setting).

Disdain · 13-01-2007, 4:05 PM

Only 20 minutes? Wow that seems really small. As always the more I think about it the more the budget goes up. Thinking about up to £300 now. I do like the idea of just sticking a DVD into a player, but 20 mins? Wow that is real short.

redsox_mark · 13-01-2007, 5:55 PM

£300 (and some change) I'd stick with Canon and with DV, but go up to the MVX450/MVX460.

Or if you want to go DV, the Sony DVD205 is around £300, and is a decent DVD model.

DVD cams use small DVDs that only hold 1.4 GB. Ordinary DVDs hold 4.7 GB (and hold 1 hour at best quality). As with ordinary DVDs, you can fit more on a disc if you drop the quality setting, but you really want to use the best setting if you can.

Disdain · 14-01-2007, 12:14 PM

Ok thanks for the info again.

Another question (sorry!). Does the photo mode work while you are recording video, or can you only do one or the other? If I had one with a remote would you be able to use that to take a photo or just video?

Oh and do most camcorders have a scart out connector so you could plug it into a TV to see what you are recording?

redsox_mark · 14-01-2007, 5:26 PM

Photo mode: This varies by model, but generally you can take a photo same time as video, but you are limited to lower resolution than in still camera mode. For example with the MVX460, it will only take 640x480 stills at the same time as video; in stills only mode it will take 1152x864.

Remote: Every remote I've seen has a photo button. (and the MVX460 does).

Scart: All camcorders come with a AV cable (video "phono" plug and 2 audio plugs). You can use a cheap converter to convert this to SCART (and sometines such a converter plug is included).

Disdain · 14-01-2007, 7:39 PM

Ah that's interesting the resolution drops when doing both. Thanks for that.

Have you seen the Panasonic GS180? http://www.currys.co.uk/product.php?sku=954205 Looks like it has a better picture as it has 3 CCDs? Any comments?

redsox_mark · 14-01-2007, 9:29 PM

GS180 is good - the only thing I don't like about it is that it loses quality in widescreen mode, and you can't use image stabilisation in widescreen mode. Picture (especially colour accuracy) is slightly better than the MVX450/460. Overall they are close... if you can live with the widescreen issues GS180 is an option.

Disdain · 14-01-2007, 10:16 PM

You know I haven't decided yet on whether I would be doing widescreen shoots. I guess I probably will.

I also found the Canon DC10 for £310 on ebuyer, which sounds like it is better than the Sony DVD205?

redsox_mark · 15-01-2007, 12:19 AM

That's a good price for the DC10 - there is generally more of a price gap between the Sony 205 and it. DC10 is better than the Sony DVD205.

Disdain · 15-01-2007, 9:34 PM

Argh this is so hard to decide! Does any site have sample video clips and photos taken with any of these cameras?

I was leaning towards the Canon MVX450, but then I hear it's not comfortable to hold which kind of defeats the object! Or possibly the MV930... hmmmmmm

redsox_mark · 15-01-2007, 9:53 PM

There are some video tests from this French video mag site
http://www.magazinevideo.com/videos.php

Disdain · 16-01-2007, 5:45 PM

Useful link thanks for that. Only a pity the resolution is so small. When saving to my PC and playing back full screen they all look a bit rough. Although the GS500 did look better, but then the resolution of the clip was higher.....

Disdain · 16-01-2007, 5:59 PM

I guess the question is if I spend £200-300 will I wish I'd spent that little bit more to get bigger or more CCDs? Not sure if I can stretch but would a camera up to £400 be THAT much better?

redsox_mark · 16-01-2007, 9:11 PM

This is hard to answer... I'd say better but not hugely better. Not like the difference between SD and HD.

Disdain · 17-01-2007, 11:09 AM

I really appreciate your help Mark.

Problem now is I just don't know what to do or how much to spend.

I just saw a GS280 on Amazon for £370, which is similar to the GS300?

My shortlist now has:

Mini DV:

Sony HC96
Panasonic GS280
Canon MVX450
Canon MV930

DVD: (probably won't go DVD but these are the ones on the list)
Canon DC-10
Sony DVD205

I gather HDD has the same issues with DVD on video quality.

redsox_mark · 17-01-2007, 12:09 PM

Yes the GS280 is the same as the GS300 except it doesn't have DV-input.

You are right that HDD cams have the same quality "issues" as DVD.

All those models are good models for their respective price points.

£370 for the GS280 is an excellent price - that's £50 cheaper than everyone else listed on pricerunner
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/sound-a.../555313/prices

If you can stretch to it I'd go for that one.

Disdain · 17-01-2007, 5:43 PM

Ok I'm no longer worried about photo ability as they just won't compare to a camera and if I need a pic I can use my mobile phone which does surprisingly good pics.

I think I really do want a DVD one just to remove the hassle. How does the Canon DC19 and Panasonic VDR-D250 compare to the DC10 and Sony DVD205?

redsox_mark · 18-01-2007, 10:52 AM

Ignoring price, I'd rank them

VDR-250
DC19
DC10
DVD205

DVD205 is the cheapest, so is still good value.

The 2 Canon models have a larger CCD and better video performance. The 19 is a newer model; similar video performance, better stills, widescreen LCD, similar price.

The VDR-250 has 3 CCDs, and best picture quality of this bunch.

Disdain · 18-01-2007, 5:53 PM

Nice one Mark. I'll probably go DC19 then as that's Dual Layer I believe. Can't find if the VDR D250 is so it probably isn't..

Disdain · 04-02-2007, 3:52 PM

Just to let you know I went for the Pansonic VDR D-250 for £335 from purelygadgets. It came in 2 days.

The camera itself is nice and small. It's really easy to use and the quality is still very good even on standard mode. You can get 37 minutes on a DVD or 19 in high mode. Looks fine on my 37" HD TV so I can't grumble.

**senu** · 04-02-2007, 4:06 PM

Hope it gives you many hrs of "video making" pleasure!

Dont forget you can still import the camcorders DVD footage to PC for editing/ Authoring with more footage to a standard DVD
and
You can use DVD-RW if you dont want to keep footage and waste blank DVDs