[Twin Turbo]

Hi guys.
This is along the lines of Mickeyb01's thread, but I didn't want to spoil his by asking my own questions.

So here goes....
I'm getting married on May 5th, and need a camcorder for our honeymoon. We're heading to the Maldives and Dubai, so I really want to get a HD Camcorder to do them justice. As soon as we're back, I'll be splashing out on a 1080p tv, which is another reason for the HD requirement.
I don't really want to be faffing around with tapes, so an HDD is essential.
I'm also not too familiar with setting everything up perfectly, so a "point and shoot" unit would suit me down to the ground.

In a nutshell, I'm looking for a point-and-shoot HD camcorder with built in HDD, and the capability of connecting it to my pc/DVD recorder (Panasonic DMR-EH80) to do a bit of editing and burn onto a disc.
Not looking to blow the whole honeymoon budget on this, but if a unit is worth the money, I'm willing to pay for it.

So there's my blank canvas. Paint it as you see fit!

[redsox_mark]

You want High Def, HDD. Well, that's easy, as there is only one model today, with another just announced.

The model available today is the Sony SR1. It is AVCHD (MPEG4) format, which today there is virtually no software editing support, but that is coming soon.
http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowProdu...ard+Disk+Drive

The new model announced is the JVC GZ-HD7. Per this announcement available April 2007 in the US; not sure if the UK schedule is the same
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...-HD-Everio.htm
This one uses MPEG2 (similar but not the same as used in HDV camcorders).

[Twin Turbo]

Thanks Mark

I'm thinking of more questions as I go along!

I think, but I'm not sure, that my dvd recorder has a firewire input on it. When you say there's no editing software available for the Sony, should I still be able to drop it onto the DVD recorder's HDD and edit* from there?

* - maybe I should clarify edit. I've never done anything like fade out/in, or anything fancy like that! All I'm talking about is deleting certain scenes/parts of scenes, and just running it straight through. I can keep the original on the HDD, and as software becomes available (or I get good at it!), I can pretty it up.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Twin Turbo

In a nutshell, I'm looking for a point-and-shoot HD camcorder with built in HDD, and the capability of connecting it to my pc/DVD recorder (Panasonic DMR-EH80) to do a bit of editing and burn onto a disc.

Just saw your note - you will only be able to connect it to your DVD recorder using the composite video or S video output in SD mode. If you went for a HDV (tape) based camcorder you could transfer it as DV. (I believe your DVD recorder has DV-input).

[redsox_mark]

maybe I should clarify edit. I've never done anything like fade out/in, or anything fancy like that! All I'm talking about is deleting certain scenes/parts of scenes, and just running it straight through.

You can do that type of editing on the camcorder itself - split it into bits, create a playlist of the bits you want, delete bits you don't, etc. The problem is then they only way to play it in high def is from the camcorder. You could output the playlist to your DVD recorder (in analogue standard def) and create a standard def DVD.

Eventually there may be High Def DVD recorders, when these exist you could use one of these.

A general comment with HD is that the screens/TVs are in the lead - there are lots of these available. Next we have camcorders, they are now getting common. What we don't have yet generally available is High Def DVD recorders or even players. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are just out (and expensive). You can create HD-DVDs on ordinary discs, but you need software for that.

You can take an approach which many are which is for now to create SD DVDs from your high def material, and eventually you can re-release your material on HD. In the meantime you can also play the HD from the camcorder itself. The problem though becomes how to you archive your footage. You would need to use a computer for this.. you could archive on a computer HDD, then later copy the files back to your camcorder (e.g. when you get a High Def DVD recorder).

Hope this isn't too confusing. Bottom line it is easy to shoot HD, not so easy to create an edited HD movie. Easy to create a SD DVD.

[redsox_mark]

A couple of other comments, then I'll shut up and let you digest it...

I don't really want to be faffing around with tapes

I respect your opinion so I resisted the temptation to give the argument for tapes, but now knowing more of your situation (specifically that you aren't interested in detailed PC editing, and simple edits on a DVD recorder suit you fine) I feel I must comment...

If you got a HDV (tape) camcorder, you could use this flow:

Today: Have the camcorder downconvert to DV, and use the firewire input on your DVD recorder. Do your simple edits and create a SD DVD that way. File the tape away for the future.

Future: Get a High Def DVD recorder. Get the tape out of the cupboard. Use either the component or the HDMI outputs of the camcorder to output to your High Def DVD/HDD recorder, and create a high def DVD that way.

With a HDD camcorder, the flow would be:

Today: Use the analogue outputs in SD setting to copy to your DVD recorder. Do your simple edits and create a SD DVD that way. Copy the files from the camcorder HDD to a PC. If the PC HDD starts to fill up, you need to burn these to DVD or something to save them.

Future: Get a High Def DVD recorder. But before you can use it, you need to copy the files from your PC (or DVD) back to the camcorder. Use either the component or the HDMI outputs of the camcorder to output to your High Def DVD/HDD recorder, and create a high def DVD that way.

Now this assumes High Def DVD recorders will eventually exist, but that seems a safe bet.

The main point is that with tape (or with DVD camcorders), you instantly have an archive. You just save that media. With a HDD cam, the HDD will fill up - you need to do something with the material. Now if you are routinely editing on a PC, that's easy, as you copy the files. (except for the fact that AVCHD doesn't have editing support yet). But for someone not used to PC editing. to me, having to archive that material is more of a "faff" than simply keeping the tape (or the DVD).

[Twin Turbo]

And all I wanted was a bloody camcorder!!

Seriously though, thanks for all the info.
It's well explained, and easily digested.

One of the main reasons I was plumping for a HDD cam as opposed to a DV cam is I still look on tapes as being like VCR tapes, and I can't get my head around how you can record/edit/etc. in HD with a tape. Obviously the technology exists, and as I'm not too familiar with things, I woulda thought that keeping things in digital (HDD to HDD) format would mean the best quality. Probably a very narrow minded view of things, but I don't know any different.

So if I were to choose HDV (does this record in 720p/1080i?), does this give me more options regarding units?
Also, something like this Sony DVD Camcorder. It says this records onto miniDVD's in HD. But would these only be viewable on the camcorder?

And just to pick up on something you mentioned about the HDD camcorders. You said I'd have to transfer using SD using s-video or something. Is this because HDD camcorders don't have a DV output?

[redsox_mark]

I can understand your view on tapes. I think many people have the same view. The key thing is that, whether DV or HDV, the information on the tape is digital. So it is nothing like VHS tape and your VCR.

So if I were to choose HDV (does this record in 720p/1080i?), does this give me more options regarding units?

Yes and Yes. HDV camcorders record either 720p or 1080i to tape. JVC had (maybe still has) some "pro" 720p models.. for today's consumer/prosumer camcorders they are 1080i from Sony and Canon. Sony has the HC3 (prices around £700) and Canon has the HV10 (around £800). Sony has just announced new models the HC5 (very similar to the HC3, some minor improvements), and the HC7 (looks to have some significant improvements over the HC3). I'm not sure when the HC5 and HC7 will be available to purchase, but as they are already listed on the sony web site as current models I think it will be soon.

You said I'd have to transfer using SD using s-video or something. Is this because HDD camcorders don't have a DV output?

Correct. DV output is only a feature of DV and HDV models.

[Twin Turbo]

Thanks for all your help Mark.
I like the look of the JVC, but since there's no definite release date for Europe, I can't really pin my hopes on that one. Also, I don't understand how it can capture in 1920 x 1080i, and it not be p as opposed to i.

So I think I've decided on the Sony HDR-SR1E. Am I right or wrong??
I rang my local Sony centre to ask about them, and they said hold off until mid-late Feb, as there's a new version due out around then. Anyone know anything about that?

One final thing. Since I'm passing through Heathrow for the honeymoon, I'm wondering could I do something like ring the Currys/Dixons in Heathrow, as them to get it into stock for me, collect it from them as I'm passing through, and since I'm leaving the EU, pay no VAT on it?

[redsox_mark]

Interlaced (i) or Progressive (p) is separate from resolution. All the current 1080i camcorders shoot 1440x1080, with rectangular pixels. The new JVC is 1920x1080, square pixels.

Sony HDR-SR1E is the right (only) choice if you want High Def HDD today.

I rang my local Sony centre to ask about them, and they said hold off until mid-late Feb, as there's a new version due out around then. Anyone know anything about that?

Sony announced their new 2007 camcorder lineup just yesterday - if I counted corrrectly 13 models in total. This includes 2 HDV camcorders, 4 DV ones, 5 SD-HDD cams, 2 AVCHD-DVD cams... but no new AVCHD-HDD cams. Mid/late Feb timeframe sounds right for the new range, but as that new range didn't include a AVCHD-HDD cam, I doubt that there is one. I think it is more likely that the person in the Sony centre knew there is a whole bunch of new models coming, rather than there being a new version of the SR1. But I could be wrong...

Here is the press release
http://www.sony-europe.com/res/attac...6605189207.pdf

It includes this statement:

New for 2007 is an exciting range of High Definition (HD) Handycam models, complimenting the current AVCHD HDD model HDR-SR1. They offer the ultimate camcorder experience in both AVCHD DVD and HDV formats with an expanded model range and groundbreaking technological advances.

There is no mention of a new AVCHD HDD model.

As for duty free - yes that is an option, though you can often get cheaper prices on the web (even with paying VAT). For example, they have the HDV Sony HC3 for £765, but you can get it online elsewhere for less. But it is worth checking to see what price they are offering; you can order before you go and pick it up at the airport
http://www.dixonstaxfree.co.uk/

[senu]

Unlike Mark
I will be a bit more Prescriptive ( something I do for a living ) but virtually never outside work

If you can get your head round the idea that a tape based camcorder ( even HDV) is nothing like VHS,
The Mechanism and technology are very different even if the "tape" reminds you of Audio cassettes.

I would strongly suggest getting Sonys HC3 or Canons HV10 for fantastic quality HDV material played direct on your HD ready TV. Take a few tapes with you and you wont worry about filling up the HDD or shooting at less than perfect quality to keep the HDD from getting full

Editable as HDV today and DV today .Transferable to Dvd recorder as DV in (digitally at best PQ) before becoming a DVD
DVD camcorder It certainly has its place in the scheme of things but not if HD is sought

It may come as a surprise to you that the starting material of many DVDs and CDs even in today's digital era come from tape!

There is nothing wrong with the AVCHD camcorders; they are a technological marvel and Sony is pushing them , but I don't think editing support is going to come fast and furious .Even if it does I suspect modestly specced PCs will have to take a bow as even playing AVCHD material on a PC is CPU intensive and modest Pcs are chocking

Just a slant though as Im sure technology moves on

[felix2]

...complimenting the current HDR-SR1.

You would've thought with the launch of their new product range, Sony could afford a dictionary!!

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by senu

I would strongly suggest getting Sonys HC3 or Canons HV10 for fantastic quality HDV

Or the HC7... Given that the wedding isn't until May, I'd be tempted to wait until the new models come out (it sounds like that should be sometime next month). See how the new models compare... or maybe get a bargin on an HC3.

The HC5 is so similar to the HC3 (with some improvements) that I assume it can be seen as a replacement for the HC3.. I expect the HC3 will be discontinued (though depending on stock levels they may be for sale for some time).

When the HC1 was dropped, its price pretty much stayed the same.... this was because, as good as the HC3 is, it wasn't really a replacement, and the HC1 has some key features the HC3 doesn't have. But HC5 looks to have everything the HC3 does, plus some improvements (lower lux rating, this " x.y.color" thing what ever that is for improved colour, greater stills resolution). And the HC7 adds more.

Depending on the pricing of the HC5, we may see HC3 prices drop.

[Twin Turbo]

Thanks for your input guys.
@Mark. Interesting news about the Sony stuff. But the fact that there's no replacement coming for the AVCHD-HDD probably means it's price isn't going to drop anytime soon, yeah?

@Senu. Always good to here another opinion, even is it does throw a spanner in the works!!
Some devil's advocate for you though, if you don't mind...
You mention the HDV cams(HC3), and their ability to watch direct to a HDTV. And also their ability to transfer using the highest quality to the HDD of my DVD recorder using dv-in (even if my recorder won't be able to burn the disc in HD). But can't you do the same with the HDR-SR1, more or less? ie. straight to the HDTV using component, and straight to pc (I assume using the same pq as it was recorded in) using USB2.
And as for the editing, doesn't the HDR-SR1 come with editing software?

And while I'm on a roll, another few questions
Is there any difference in pq between the HC7 and the HDR-SR1, or is it just the storage medium is different?
How many hours of footage, at the highest quality, could I expect to store on the HDR-SR1?
Say I transferred my HD recording from the HDR-SR1 to my pc. Can I not burn the file onto a data dvd, thus retaining the original pq, freeing up space on the pc hdd and the cam hdd?
And one final question. How many hours recording at the highest quality could I expect on the HDR-SR1.

Sorry for the rambling guys. Tis very early for it I know!

Oh, and Mark. I'll more than likely end up buying from the net. The local Sony centre want €1500 for the HDR-SR1!

[redsox_mark]

But the fact that there's no replacement coming for the AVCHD-HDD probably means it's price isn't going to drop anytime soon, yeah?

Yeah. As the SR1 is still pretty new and their only AVCHD-HDD model, I would not expect a price drop due to the introduction of the new range.

And as for the editing, doesn't the HDR-SR1 come with editing software

It does come with some very basic software; SR1 users can comment on how useful it is. I don't think it can edit it directly, but you have to convert to MPEG2. Mainstream editing software (e.g from Adobe, Sony, Ulead, Pinnacle) do not yet support the format. Sony has announced that their Vegas software will support it in the "spring". The lack of software support is a short term issue.. but as Senu said it is likely that editing will be harder on the PC (due to the greater compression)... so the PC requirements to be able to edit are likely to be higher than with HDV. This can be worked around by converting to another intermediate or "proxy" format for editing. That's a whole other topic, but in summary you will be able to edit it eventually, but it is likely to be harder to edit than HDV.

Is there any difference in pq between the HC7 and the HDR-SR1, or is it just the storage medium is different?

We don't know for sure yet as the HC7 isn't out.. but most reviews/opinions on the HC3 vs. SR1 is that the quality of the HC3 footage is slightly better - mainly due to increased video noise caused by the AVCHD compression. But the SR1 does have some features that the HC3 doesn't (like mic input)... but the HC7 also adds those features. I would expect the quality of the HC7 to be slightly better than the HC3 (which in turn is slightly better than the SR1). But the differences are small.

Here is one such detailed review of the SR1
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

How many hours of footage, at the highest quality, could I expect to store on the HDR-SR1?

4 hours.

Say I transferred my HD recording from the HDR-SR1 to my pc. Can I not burn the file onto a data dvd, thus retaining the original pq, freeing up space on the pc hdd and the cam hdd?

Yes you can.

[Twin Turbo]

Cool, cool.
It's looking like the HDR-SR1 so, even with it's lower pq and it's awkward editing. Even though it's an early technology, I still feel HDD is the way to go.
Going back to the editing, does it have an onboard editing facility, or do things have to be transferred to pc for editing? And, like you mentioned previously, if I converted to mpeg2 to allow for easier editing, would the conversion reduce the pq?
And, now that I think about it, since all technologies are becoming "centralised", if I had a media centre pc, couldn't I drop the recordings onto that, and play it in it's original format to the HDTV?

[redsox_mark]

The SR1 does have simple editing on-board. It is "cuts only" - i.e. you can split a clip into multiple parts, delete bits you don't want, create playlists which just play the bits you do want, etc.

In theory any conversion from one compressed format to another will have some quality loss, but if converting to MPEG2 with a high bitrate there should not be any noticable loss. You could also convert them to .wmv.

And yes you should be (eventually) able to play the files from a PC (Media Centre or otherwise)... but today the same problems which are stopping editing are also an issue for playing the files. There are issues with getting software that can play it, and or a codec installed, and even then the reports I've seen show even with a pretty powerful machine people are unable to get smooth playback. If this format gets more mature I'm sure we will see video playing software optimised to be able to play these better, and of course PCs keep getting faster. But for now, these clips are about as impossible to play as they are to edit.

You could download some sample clips and see if you can play them...
Here is a clip from an SR1 someone posted
http://esotic.com/media/Water.m2ts

For some reason when I download it, Internet explorer thinks it is a html file - if that happens just save it as a file and rename it to have a .m2ts extention.

I can't play it at all (in Windows Media player or VLC). I've read that Power DVD 7 and Nero can.

[Twin Turbo]

OK, thanks.
Found this in the comments section under the review of the SR1 you linked.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that a standard DVD+R
burned with AVCHD info by the Sony software played with hi-def
picture on a BluRay deck.


So that's cool.

Although, reading what you wrote about the HC7 in the other thread has me thinking that maybe I should go for HDV!!

This is a bloody minefield!

[redsox_mark]

Yea, it is a tough choice. The only consolation is they all are very good.

Here is a link to a little tutorial from Sony about the different formats.. it's pretty basic, but it might help.

http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowArtic...site=odw_en_GB

[Twin Turbo]

Excellent, cheers.

C'mere, is there something like firmware/software updates for camcorders? The reason I ask is it seems that the AVCHD compression causes the slight deterioration in pq. So if a newer version of the compression is released in the future, will it be updateable?

[redsox_mark]

Firmware updates for camcorders are not common.. but it seems there is a firmware update for the SR1 already (may not apply to the European model). But it is to fix an audio problem.
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/new...R1&news_id=158

Firmware updates are generally to fix bugs.. the reported "noise" with the AVCHD compression is inherent to the technology. Over time the implementation will improve, but I doubt they would issue firmware updates to improve the compression.

[Twin Turbo]

Morning Mark, I'm back to pester you again!

I finally got a chance to look at the Sony link you posted. It's actually quite informative, and I'm pretty much 100% that I'll go for the SR-1E now.
There's just one part that stuck in my mind.
When the lovely young lady is talking about the different recording formats, she goes through the HDV, AVCHD-DVD, and finally the AVCHD-HDD. When she's explaining about the HDD, and the hours of storage it has, she says that "it can store over 6.5 hours of footage in HQ mode, the equivalent of HDV quality. For the ultimate detailed video, you can shoot 4 hours of video in XP mode."
So here's my question.
When reviewers have noticed more noise in the SR-1E output compared to the HC-3, I wonder is this because they were using XP mode, and the AVCHD is over-processing the information? Would the output be identical to the HC-3 if the recordings had been made in HQ mode, as stated by Sony in the link given?

[redsox_mark]

I had a listen to the nice lady and noticed that comment too.

For the camcorderinfo.com review
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm
I'm sure they did their tests using XP mode. They always use the best quality mode in their tests, and they also talk about 15Mbps data rate (which is the XP rate) and 4 hours fitting on the HDD. The key statement is in this paragraph. As they talk about using a 15 Mbps stream that is the XP setting:

AVCHD has a difficult job to do, and despite our caveats, it’s a revolutionary development for the consumer camcorder market. Even though it doesn’t look as good as the HDV video we’ve seen this year, it is still HD video, and much superior to the best SD video. High definition video contains more than four times the amount of information as standard definition, and its remarkable that AVCHD compresses that information into a 15Mbps stream. Noise and artefacts seem to be the price you pay for now, so the question is, can you live with video that doesn’t yet match HDV, or should you wait the format to mature? If video quality is paramount for you, the latter is a compelling argument

I see the logic in your question, but there is no way that a lower bitrate should look better, unless something is seriously wrong with the compression. It's not a question of "over processing". If anything there is more processing required with a lower bitrate. The higher the bitrate, the easier it is to compress to it. Look at it this way - the sensor in the camcorder captures uncompressed video, which would have a size of hundreds of Mbps! It then has to massively compress down to only 15 (or 9) Mbps. It has to decide what to keep and what to throw away. Having more bits to keep can only help, not hurt.

I'm not sure how Sony can say that the HQ (9 Mbps) mode is the equivalent of HDV quality. That would imply that XP is better than HDV, and tests have shown this is not the case.

[redsox_mark]

I found this which is interesting about dealing with the AVCHD format
http://www.worldtv.com/blog/technolo...avchd.php#more

Most interesting is that downloading a trial of PowerDVD7 gets you the codec to play the files... (I assume even after the trial expires).

There is also an editing workaround with TMPGEnc XPress described.

[Twin Turbo]

I sent an email to Sony asking them to explain it.
Not expecting anything back, tbh.
I suppose the best way to do it is, if someone reading this actually has the SR1, maybe they could make two identical recordings of the same thing, one in HQ and one in XP, and compare to see if there's a difference.
Think I saw another thread on here for SR1 owners, so I'll post there and ask.

Reading that blog you posted, the black-magic card is mentioned, and the fact that you can record straight to the card, thus bypassing the AVCHD processing. What I'm wondering is, how would you connect to the card to do this? Surely it defeats the purpose of a camcorder if you have to be wired to your pc!
Unless it is some sort of wireless connectivity?

[redsox_mark]

The HDMI capture is interesting, but as that is uncompressed you'll need lots of HDD space on the PC.

In the case of avoiding the AVCHD (or HDV for HDV camcorders) processing, the camcorder would have to be connected to the PC via a HDMI cable. This would only be useful if you were shooting from a fixed position (e.g. from a tripod) and could have your PC connected. It looks like a wireless solution exists but only has a range of 15 feet so not sure that is very useful.
http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2006/02/wireless_hdmi_c.html

[Twin Turbo]

Just to follow up on this, I've decided to go for the SR1*.
I know the AVCHD format has it's flaws, but HD and HDD all in one little package is too cool a gadget not to have!
Since I'm flying through Dubai on the Honeymoon, I decided to contact their Duty Free Shop about availability of the SR1. They stock it, and it's European spec. Their price is 4,999AED, approx €1050. Pretty damn sweet from where I'm sitting, especially when the local Sony Centre is looking for €1599!
Hopefully I'm doing the right thing, and hopefully I've made the right choice.

Couple of other things.
Sony never replied to explain why they said XP mode is better than HQ mode, even though HQ mode is "equivalent to HDV quality".
* - Gonna go for this unless the new JVC is released in time, and is a better unit.

[Twin Turbo]

Finally got a response to the email I sent Sony over a month ago.
Here's the reply...

Thank you for your recent enquiry.

I apologise for the inconvenience you have been experiencing.

As the information was not from an authorised Sony website, we can not acknowledge the information given.

However, I can provide you with the specifications from our website on both camcorders below:

http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowProdu...tegory=HDD+HDV HDR-HC7E

http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowProdu...ard+Disk+Drive HDR-SR1E

I hope that this has been of assistance to you.

If you have any other queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

With regards


So basically they're no help whatsoever, and don't acknowledge independant reviews. Well, they probably acknowledge them if they're complimentary!!

Ah well, you live and learn.

[imranuk]

Originally Posted by Twin Turbo

Just to follow up on this, I've decided to go for the SR1*.
I know the AVCHD format has it's flaws, but HD and HDD all in one little package is too cool a gadget not to have!
Since I'm flying through Dubai on the Honeymoon, I decided to contact their Duty Free Shop about availability of the SR1. They stock it, and it's European spec. Their price is 4,999AED, approx €1050. Pretty damn sweet from where I'm sitting, especially when the local Sony Centre is looking for €1599!
Hopefully I'm doing the right thing, and hopefully I've made the right choice.

Couple of other things.
Sony never replied to explain why they said XP mode is better than HQ mode, even though HQ mode is "equivalent to HDV quality".
* - Gonna go for this unless the new JVC is released in time, and is a better unit.

Hi I am flying to Dubai next week, can you confirm for me which Duty Free store you got this price from in Dubai? I was about to purchase the SR1E for approximately £900 but the Dubai price is about £700 a £200 saving is well worth the wait

[Twin Turbo]

Hi Imranuk.
It was the dutyfree shop at Dubai International Airport that gave me the price. I've only been in touch by email, Customer.Service@ddf.ae.

Since you're not going over until next week, they may have the new JVC HD7 in stock. Will be a couple of £ more, but on paper at least, it looks a far superior unit.