No high def compatibility for HDV MPEG2 in new HD formats

[laser]

It looks like there is going to be no support for playback of high def footage in MPEG2 format for those of you presently using Sony's HDV based camcorders and who are waiting to transfer high def footage to DVD-R, HD-DVD-R or BD-R.

As you may or may be aware, HD-DVD will not support 1080i/50Hz at launch although a firmware fix maybe available in the future. That is a MAYBE not a WILL BE or a DEFINATELY. This affects all European high def camcorders.

As for blueray, Panasonic BD players support 1080i at 50Hz but not 1440x1080i/50Hz. That means footage recorded on the HC1E, HC3 of FX1 camcorders is not compatible and will not replay on the new hardware. BD only supports 1080i/50Hz for AVC/VC1 format:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/images04/...dfbrochure.pdf

This would mean downconverting all your high def footage, which will always results in a loss of quality when you go from one lossy system to another.

I can't find the specs for the Sony BD player but I suspect they will probably use the same encoder as the Panasonic and so will not support 1440x1080i, basically freezing out their own HDV cams.

At the moment I cannot find out if 1440x1080i is going to be supported somewhere down the line i.e. 2nd generation BD players.

If anyone can get hold of the specs of the Sony BD player, I would be facinated to see if 1440x1080i is going to be supported.

All in all, not a satisfactory situation.

[redsox_mark]

That is worrying. I guess we could render out to 1920x1080 MPEG2, that is supported, but supporting 1440x1080 HDV would be better.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by laser

It looks like there is going to be no support for playback of high def footage in MPEG2 format for those of you presently using Sony's HDV based camcorders and who are waiting to transfer high def footage to DVD-R, HD-DVD-R or BD-R.

As you may or may be aware, HD-DVD will not support 1080i/50Hz at launch although a firmware fix maybe available in the future. That is a MAYBE not a WILL BE or a DEFINATELY. This affects all European high def camcorders.

As for blueray, Panasonic BD players support 1080i at 50Hz but not 1440x1080i/50Hz. That means footage recorded on the HC1E, HC3 of FX1 camcorders is not compatible and will not replay on the new hardware. BD only supports 1080i/50Hz for AVC/VC1 format:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/images04/...dfbrochure.pdf

This would mean downconverting all your high def footage, which will always results in a loss of quality when you go from one lossy system to another.

I can't find the specs for the Sony BD player but I suspect they will probably use the same encoder as the Panasonic and so will not support 1440x1080i, basically freezing out their own HDV cams.

At the moment I cannot find out if 1440x1080i is going to be supported somewhere down the line i.e. 2nd generation BD players.

If anyone can get hold of the specs of the Sony BD player, I would be facinated to see if 1440x1080i is going to be supported.

All in all, not a satisfactory situation.

this is a disaster, i would not have gone hdv if its true as all my tapes[hd recorded ones] are edited and stored waiting to go on some form of hd disk if sony does this i will never touch them again.

[senu]

It is not in Sonys interest to ignore the several owners of thier HDV camcorders but I hope they dont do what is usual of Sony : simply ignore past purchasers and concentrate on new ones.

[PDP-434HDE]

Oh well, thats my proposed HC-3 purchase scrubbed!

[PDP-434HDE]

Thinking about it more, possibly not.

I use Sony Vegas, and I was thinking that when I get a HC-3 I would render as a 1280x720p WMV-HD with 5.1 surround, as I have done this with my standard camcorder footage and it has worked fine. (I stream this via XBOX360 and WMCE PC).

After all, my 436 XDE is 1024x768, so no point in attempting to convert to 1920x1080 as that means filling in the blanks.

What are you guys doing with your HDV footage right now?

To clarify, I would never be interested in a direct dump from the camcorder to a Blue-Ray, HD-DVD writer anyway, as I like to add transitions and background music to my footage.

Should the HC-3 still be on my shopping list then?

[senu]

I think so and like you Im not hot on a "direct dump"

But to clarify, what would we have to render the footage onto to get it onto BD ( or preferably, HD DVD) ?
1920x 1080?
Like you my Phillips 32 PF 9830 display is also
1024 x786

[redsox_mark]

To me this is confusing and somewhat of a concern, but not neccessarily a disaster...

I'm probably unusual in that I shoot HDV but don't yet have a HD display (my plasma can display 720p and 1080i, but it is only a SD display). I create SD DVDs for now, I also render out an edited master in HDV format and save this. (I've also created HD WMV files and played these, just for fun...).

My plan when BD writers and authoring become an affordable reality was to re-issue my productions using the edited HDV masters. So ideally I would want to be able to author a Bluray Disc using these HDV masters without having to re-encode them. Regardless of what display I have, I would like to use the native HDV 1440x1080 format - I'm not just concerned about my display, but also distribution to others, and want this in the highest possible format.

The way I read that Panasonic brochure, it seems 1440x1080 is supported, but not in MPEG2. 1920x1080 MPEG2 is supported, so I would have to render to that. That would involve another generation of render, and also would take up more space than neccessary... so less than ideal.

That Panasonic brochure says 1280x720 is supported, but only at 59.94p... which is also confusing..

[senu]

Im hoping Sonys Recordable BD video ( not data as exist now) will address this as Panasonic although in the BD alliance is aiming mainly at its own HD camcorders as such.
As if the HDDVD? BD format differences are not bad enough, it seems that the recordables are not going to be " standard" as I cant belive Sony would turn its back to the many Users of its curent crop of ( otherwise excellent ) HDV camcorders. It may well be that firmware updates for the Panasonic ones will be effected to ensure some uniformity.

[laser]

Perhaps all is not lost......

I use Avid Liquid 7.1 at the moment. When you create a new project for HDV the options available are 1440x1080i, hence my concern about the lack of support in BD for this MPEG2 format.

However, after having a good mess about in Avid Liquid last night, if you select to export/fuse your HDV footage from the timeline to a MPEG2 file it automatically creates a 1980x1080i file and not a 1440x1080i MPEG2 file. Liquid doesn't give you the option to create a 1440x1080i MPEG2 file.

When I checked the file proprties in PowerDVD, it was 1980x1080i and was identical in playback quality to the raw MV2 file captured from the camacorder.

What I need to check next is whether the M2V file captured directly from the camcorder is 1980x1080i or 1440x1080i. However liquid only lets you select a new project with HDV 1440x1080i.

I'm wondering if the differences between the 1980x1080i and 1440x1080i formats are down to the anamorphic capturing of the image. If you check the Sony camcorder manual if provides some extra but confusing info).

So in affect we are really working with is a 1980x1080i image although some editing software prefers to call the widescreen anamorphic image 1440x1080i.

In either case Liquid is exporting/rendering a very detailed 1980x1080iaat 50Hz MPEG2 file at 26MB/s which should at least work in BD players but not in HD-DVD players (at the moment).

I'm not suree how Vegas or Premiere cope with HDV files and their export. However its looks like you'll be OK with Avid Liquid.

[PDP-434HDE]

But, up converting to 1920 x 1080 does mean having to fill in the blanks (i.e. make assumptions about what should be put in a pixel depending upon what is in the adjacent real pixels) [interpolation I believe].

This is far from ideal. Thus, I'd be happy to limit my Hi-Def to 720p (1280 x 720 progressive), as very few HD Displays can display 1080p (1920 x 1080 progressive).

I'd imagine that both BD and HD-DVD will support writing at 720p.

IIRC, Vegas doesn't support 1080p, just 1080i (1920 x 1080 interlaced).

[PDP-434HDE]

Originally Posted by laser

Perhaps all is not lost......

I use Avid Liquid 7.1 at the moment. When you create a new project for HDV the options available are 1440x1080i, hence my concern about the lack of support in BD for this MPEG2 format.

However, after having a good mess about in Avid Liquid last night, if you select to export/fuse your HDV footage from the timeline to a MPEG2 file it automatically creates a 1980x1080i file and not a 1440x1080i MPEG2 file. Liquid doesn't give you the option to create a 1440x1080i MPEG2 file.

When I checked the file proprties in PowerDVD, it was 1980x1080i and was identical in playback to the raw MV2 file captured from the cmacorder.

What I need to check next is wether the M2V file catured directly from the camcorder is 1980x1080i but for some reason liquid calls the project 1440x1080i.

I'm wondering if 1980x1080i is the high def 4:3 image but it you dump the black borders you have in effect a 1440x1080i image (check the Sony camcordr manual). Does this make sense.

So in affect we are really working with 1980x1080i image although some editing software prefers to call the widescreen image 1440x1080i.

In either case Liquid is exporting/rendering a very detailed 1980x1080i MPEG2 file at 26MB/s which should at least work in BD players.

Right, seems that you could be onto something here. I wondered where the 1440 came from but the following will explain it.


1920 / 1080 = 1.77777777777777 = 16 / 9
1440 / 1080 = 1.33333333333333 = 4 / 3

So, does that make the actually recorded image 1920 x 1080 interlaced (1080i)?

If so, there is no need to fill in the blanks at all, and life is good?

[laser]

What I need to do is check whether the raw M2V files captured by Liquid are 1440x1080i or 1980x1080i.

I had presumed they were 1440x1080i as that is the option Liquid presents to you when you create a new HDV project. However I'm suspecting that the raw M2V files could in fact be 1980x1080i and there is actually no up conversion taking place. If this is the case I don't really understand why the camcorders capture in 1440x1080i as opposed to 1980x1080i.

It's all very confusing.

[laser]

Originally Posted by PDP-434HDE

Right, seems that you could be onto something here. I wondered where the 1440 came from but the following will explain it.


1920 / 1080 = 1.77777777777777 = 16 / 9
1440 / 1080 = 1.33333333333333 = 4 / 3

So, does that make the actually recorded image 1920 x 1080 interlaced (1080i)?

If so, there is no need to fill in the blanks at all, and life is good?

I think you could be right here. Thanks for posting this.

I will check my M2V files tonight and report back unless someone does it before.

[PDP-434HDE]

I read this ..

"1440x1080--most HDV camcorders are this format, it's only recently that we are seeing 1920x1080. 1440x1080 is still considered HD, it's just that instead of square pixels, you get rectangular shaped pixels, to make up the same space a full 1920 pixels would take.
"

This explains it. I drew a 16cm wide by 9cm deep grid on some paper ( 16x9 == 1920 x 1080 ).

I made each "pixel" a 1cm x 1cm square box, so I have 16 squares x 9 squares.

However, is also possible to represent the same size of grid using rectagular "pixels" of dimensions 1.333333cm x 1cm. This covers the same grid using 12 squares x 9 squares.

16/9 = 1920/1080
12/9 = 1440/1080 = 4/3

And I'm sure I read that the HC-3 is natively widescreen (16:9) and shows you in a translucent borders what you are throwing away when you record in 4:3.

So the maths makes sense and therefore changing to 1920x1080 will introduce some fuziness and interpolation errors.

No idea why Sony didn't go for the full bhoona 1920 x 1080, is it because of bandwidth issues i.e. 12:9 takes the max 25Mbps allowed under DV-Video?