[Sicton]

I'm sure this probably gets asked on a weekly basis but I've had a good look at reviews and can't make up my mind.

I've never bought a camcorder before but I'm wanting to break into video partly as a hobbiest and partly for use on various projects towards my degree. It makes sense to me to buy HD although judging by what's out there at the moment, the cream of the crop seems to be the Sony models and there's not a whole lot else. I'm willing to spend around the £1000 mark and don't mind waiting a few months if anything better is about to come along.

Other than HD as a requirement, I would prefer a cam that shoots well in low-light. I'm not too bothered about still images as I have a separate digital camera. Surround sound recording would be a very welcome bonus.

With these things in mind, what can you recommend that I buy?

Thanks!

[redsox_mark]

Tricky one...

Firstly, by HD I assume you mean High Def, not Hard Drive. (If not, then ignore most of the rest of this post).

When you say "partly for use on various projects towards my degree" - is the degree related to video at all? The reason I'm asking is that if filmaking is part of the degree you will want/need more manual controls... if your degree is (for example) Chemistry and you want to shoot some experiments than manual control isn't so important.

Choices are: consumer models such as the Sony HC3 (web price around £700), new Canon HV10 (£860), and new Sony SR1 (£1100) and UX1 (£1000) - these are AVCHD - SR1 is HDD, UX1 is DVD. The SR1/UX1 are just coming out this month, prices will drop once everyone has stock.
And lastly, there is the discontinued Sony HC1, which you may still be able to find. HC1 is similar in quality to the HC3... HC3 is marginally better in low light, HC1 has better manual control and a mic input jack.

If you don't care about manual controls, microphone input jack, then HC3 is excellent, and probably the best in low light (though they are all pretty good). The HV10 is similar quality wise... it is smaller if that's important to you. I've only seen initial reviews on the UX1/SR1, but they have been good, and they include more controls/jacks (e.g. manual focus ring, mic jack). Picture quality maybe not quite as good as the HC3, but more features, and also editiing features unique to a HDD or DVD cam.

Note there is no software editing support yet (that I've seen) for the AVCHD cams, though I'm sure this will come soon. How well this MPEG4 based format will edit is unknown.

Then there is a big jump in price to more "prosumer" models. The Sony FX1 and new FX7 (both around £2000), and the Sony A1 (pro-version of the HC1, and still being made - avail around £1600). These give better quality and manual control, but out of your budget. As are the Z1 (around £3500) and the new V1.

I would probably wait until the SR1 comes out and editing support is available, and there is more information about how this format is working out... if reports are good then I'd lean that way. Otherwise the HC3 is a safe bet. Or look out for a HC1...

[Sicton]

Hi Mark, thanks for the quick reply.

Sorry, I should have been a little clearer on the HD thing - I did indeed mean high definition and when I say I'll be using it as part of my degree I need it for actual general purpose film production such as for making short films and to contribute to interactive presentations and the like (Multimedia degree).

I'm definitely attracted by the consumer Sony models mentioned. I think a hard drive model would be preferred just for ease as with the SR1, but is that what reduces the picture quality over the HC3 along with the new AVCHD format? The fact that the SR1 supports Dolby Digital 5.1 recording makes it all the more appealing too. I like the idea of manual controls in case I get more serious later.

I guess all I can do at this stage is wait a few weeks for it to be released and then weigh things up again.

[mark800]

I went for the HC3 at a great price. Spend the rest on something else.
Hard discs are fine, but only if they don't compromise picture quality. I want the very best image. Transferring material to a PC is a doddle anyway, and you're getting MPEG2 at 20Mbit/s, which you can play on anything (including media servers such as the Pixel Magic MB100) connected to a HDTV.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Sicton

Hi Mark, thanks for the quick reply.

..... I need it for actual general purpose film production such as for making short films and to contribute to interactive presentations and the like (Multimedia degree).

I'm definitely attracted by the consumer Sony models mentioned. I think a hard drive model would be preferred just for ease as with the SR1, but is that what reduces the picture quality over the HC3 along with the new AVCHD format? The fact that the SR1 supports Dolby Digital 5.1 recording makes it all the more appealing too. I like the idea of manual controls in case I get more serious later.

I guess all I can do at this stage is wait a few weeks for it to be released and then weigh things up again.

Hmm..
True no point guessing ahead of its release.
The HC3 and HC1 record to tape on a highly compressed mpeg2 to achieve getting HDV onto MiniDV tape and quite clevery get one hr on a standard tape: same as DV.
The HDV mpeg2 may account for the higher PQ over the mpeg4 expected to go on the AVCHD models,.

I imagine for filmaking you may have a problem with editing mpeg4 as it is far from mainstream at the current time.

The fast dissapearing HC1 seems to tick all the boxes esp for manual control otherwise the HC3 is highly recommended
Even if you cant edit the HDV from it or the HC3 ( and you should be able to with current software) ,You can still shoot in HDV and in the meantime use them as high quality SD DV camcorders by down converting in camera whilst keeping the master as HDV.
Also note that you can encode the edit ( In PP) with 5.1 Dolby Digital sound if the software supports it

Hope this has usefully supplemented Marks comprehensive post

PS "The 2 Marks"

[redsox_mark]

Here's a link to a detailed review of the UX1 (DVD model). The SR1 is pretty much identical except it is HDD rather than DVD. I believe the SR1 uses slightly less compression so in fact it should be a bit better.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

The picture quality is good, just slightly more "noise" than the HC3. It's not the HDD as such that causes this. Some of it may be due to the AVCHD compression... also they claim that the HC3 wasn't quite as good as the HC1 in this respect. Keep in mind the reviews on this site are very detailed... most likely you won't be able to notice the difference.

Quoting the review:

We'd say if you want the highest video quality go with the HC3, but frankly, the video on the UX1 is certainly quite good, plus you get a camcorder with much better features and a lot more expandability. If you're spending this much on a camcorder, you should be using it to it's fullest capabilities and the UX1 will allow you to do that.

They haven't done a detailed review of the SR1 yet, I expect they will soon and it will be similar.
Here is an earlier "first look" review of the SR1.. before they actually test it
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by Sicton

I'm sure this probably gets asked on a weekly basis but I've had a good look at reviews and can't make up my mind.

I've never bought a camcorder before but I'm wanting to break into video partly as a hobbiest and partly for use on various projects towards my degree. It makes sense to me to buy HD although judging by what's out there at the moment, the cream of the crop seems to be the Sony models and there's not a whole lot else. I'm willing to spend around the £1000 mark and don't mind waiting a few months if anything better is about to come along.

Other than HD as a requirement, I would prefer a cam that shoots well in low-light. I'm not too bothered about still images as I have a separate digital camera. Surround sound recording would be a very welcome bonus.

With these things in mind, what can you recommend that I buy?

Thanks!

i have a hc1e and i have been pleased with it but on seeing another guys footage with a similar cam i do feal camcorders can vary a bit in camcorders of the same model.most of the tests i have seen of the canon hv10 it out performs the hrc3 and hc1e but has less manual cotrols than the hc1e which is hard to find now i beleive.incidently yesterday i saw my cam on a hd projector for the first time at my club and was a bit dissapointed with the pics compaired to it on my 42 in plasma but i am fussy.all the best chris

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

...i have a hc1e and i have been pleased with it but on seeing another guys footage with a similar cam i do feal camcorders can vary a bit in camcorders of the same model.....but i am fussy.all the best chris

Its Ok to be fussy Chris if you spent one grand on a camcorder!..and the HD projector at the club may not have been set up right
Maybe you can still wring a bit more from your kit. Apologies if you are a "Pro" and have tried it all!
http://www.hdvguides.com/

The HC1 has sharpness and colour controls buried deep in its menu
The AE settings can be altered to achieve more than default.
Although the Exposure control from iris to gain is "seamless" , there is still quick manual control on exposure.
The auto white balance doesnt always get it right too.
Get all these right and youll be putting the camcorder through its paces

In essence, comparing output from the same model of camcorder is very difficult if the "test" conditions are not identical

PS: Just for fun, this demo video from the linked site above might amuse you

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Its Ok to be fussy Chris if you spent one grand on a camcorder!..and the HD projector at the club may not have been set up right
Maybe you can still wring a bit more from your kit. Apologies if you are a "Pro" and have tried it all!
http://www.hdvguides.com/

The HC1 has sharpness and colour controls buried deep in its menu
The AE settings can be altered to achieve more than default.
Although the Exposure control from iris to gain is "seamless" , there is still quick manual control on exposure.
The auto white balance doesnt always get it right too.
Get all these right and youll be putting the camcorder through its paces

In essence, comparing output from the same model of camcorder is very difficult if the "test" conditions are not identical

PS: Just for fun, this demo video from the linked site above might amuse you

the clubs projector was set up right it looked in focus but the colours were too rich and resolution down compaired to my tele thats all.i never use auto white balance on my hc1e as its poor compaired to manual i have tried it all and am pleased in general with the cam its just sad that my 2100 lies idle because its not hd why did i not get a fx1 thats another story but i would not put anyone off the hc1e.chris

[senu]

I did use the FX1 before the HC1 and though it is a great camcorder, I totally agree that Sony did a fantastic Job with the VX2100. It is one of my all time favorites

Subjectively, I dont think that as good as the FX1 is, it is as good for HD as the VX2100 is for SD. This is all nitpicking though as Both camcorder are excellent

This thread from DV doctor may interest you

Back on topic, Did you ever consider the A1?

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

I did use the FX1 before the HC1 and though it is a great camcorder, I totally agree that Sony did a fantastic Job with the VX2100. It is one of my all time favorites

Subjectively, I dont think that as good as the FX1 is, it is as good for HD as the VX2100 is for SD. This is all nitpicking though as Both camcorder are excellent

This thread from DV doctor may interest you

Back on topic, Did you ever consider the A1?

i am not sure if the a1 was out when i bought my hc1e,i am not sure that the fairly big increase in price between the two would have swayed me as the a1 is the hc1e with some extras mostly on the sound side but i know the better sound would make better films.the best thing about the 2100 was the low light it can see in the dark but if i could sell it i may take a look at the fx7 next year i do like the look of the 20x zoom on it as i like nature filming at times and if the filter size could be reduced to 37m to take my 2x that i have for the hc1e that would be some zoom.it depends on what price the fx7 are selling at by next spring.i am not sure if you meen you have owned or used the fx1 and 2100,all the best

[senu]

All the best in your search for the "best" (pun intended!)

i am not sure if you meen you have owned or used the fx1 and 2100,all the best

Yes, I had the FX1 for 6 months and had to return it. I have daily access to the VX2100 and think its low light abilities while keeping a tight grip on colour is very impressive.
On reflection, I actually think the FX1 can do just as well but not on auto. It needs to more carefully adjusted .