Cut through the bull

krismcewan · 13-06-2006, 12:56 PM

OK i USED to be all into the Best this the best that and all that stuff but now i want to cut through all the bull with the video camera market.

I no longer have time to shoot a family film dump it onto PC, Edit it, Re render it then burn it to dvd. (cmon its 3-4 hours work for an hours worth of footage)
Over the years i realised that most family movies get taken and shown 2-3 times in a lifetime so i am not wasting any more time editing.

I like the idea of a DVD camcorder- get a few dvd-r disks shoot the kids opening their presents at Xmas. Eject play on DVD jobs a goodun.

BUT is it as simple as that? WHo has the DVD camcorder. Is it easy to use. Can you watch half a disk on a dvd player and finish the disk later. Does the disk have to be Finalised before you can play on a dvd player.

I have about £400 to spend and im firmly entrenched in the SONY camp when it comes to camcorders (may be more expensive but after 10 years one of my old cameras are still being used by afamily member with out troubles so that says it all although my IP7 is perfect its not a good alrounder i need )

Anyway i fancy the Sony DVD205 unit. Any one used it or similar?
Whats it like to use? Has it got all the features you want or has it got 5 you can and 20 you cant.
whats it liek in low light, whats battery life REALLY like?

Ta in advance

P.S. Please dont go on about quality is better on a DV or HDD cos i dont care that much ITS A FAMILY MOVIE not a Hollywood blockbuster i have an Sony IP7 and Cine film had better quality in doors than that.

**senu** · 13-06-2006, 1:40 PM

Whilst awaiting your shortlist of models features, pros and cons

There is a halfway house : It may cost a bit more ( same or less depending on how you shop) but offers a bit more versatility even if you have no desire to edit on the PC or get Hi def PQ

You could keep your existing MiniDV (or Digital 8) or indeed Hi 8 camcorder and just buy a Settop DVD recorder ( +/- Hard drive)

All you lose is the real time " transfer" time to disc before you get a shiny DVD in your hands. You can certainly watch the said footage during this transfer time. You get to use "normal" discs are able to record longer than 20 mins. You can get MiniDV tapes ( espe on holiday) much easier than miniDVD discs: cheaper and (90min on LP) . You also get a greater variety of MiniDV camcorder.
In both cases you can still edit off the disc if you get the bug to add a title , music. ect without needing to spend 4 ( or more hrs) for a 10 min footage!

Despite recently getting an HDV Sony camcorder (HC1) and various PCs and software, I recently also got an LG settop DVD recorder ( with an 80G (Harddrive) and have since turned out 4-5 DVDs . Just go DV from Camcorder to Settop DVD recorder hard drive, On hard drive trim a few clips, join or divide clips and burn to DVD ( at high speed!) . I dont get a fancy menu but.... Hey...All were well recieved and no PQ issues. It is especially useful in that( with the Hard drive) you can combine footage from different events onto one DVD with little or no effort

If you have some time and a large coffee you can read bits and bobs of

This

This here

A bit more here

More here

redsox_mark · 13-06-2006, 2:48 PM

While a DVD cam is a valid option, I’m with Senu.. consider a DVD/HDD recorder. Especially if you are otherwise happy with a camcorder you already have. I bought one 18 months ago, mainly for TV use (better quality and more flexible than a VCR.. “pause live TV, etc). And while I still like to edit most “productions” on the PC, the DVD recorder is great when I don’t have the time or inclination. And you can even do cuts editing and create simple menus quickly with the DVD recorder itself.
Mark

krismcewan · 13-06-2006, 6:31 PM

Already Have a DVD recorder (had one for years never used as i have a 200gb sky+ box).

And its still the realtime and the pain of setting up one night after the kids are in bed, Trail the power leads acrodd the living room, connect up get it all synched and ready to go and then sit through all again.

I had hoped the DVD cam would eliminate this.

Again one other problem i forgot to mention (i have added it in above now) is i have a Sony IP7 camcorder. Great little pockit thingy but its utter **** for anything than outside filming on a sunny day. PLus the Tapes are extortianate to buy.

Thanks for those likns though give me some reading

**senu** · 13-06-2006, 8:16 PM

Oh...

Just set it your recorder up once and for all via a multi scart adaptor.
If the DVD recorder has firewire , the Synchonisation is easy .
Just hit record ( on the settop) b4 play on the camcorder.
Obviously If the recorder has DV in there is no need to watch the recording ( ... yet again

) as it will stop automatically at the end of video footage on the tape.

You do have more choice for your money with miniDV and an equivalently priced miniDV vs DVD camcorder : I imagine the MiniDV will be better. This is not to say there arent any poorly made MiniDV or very well made DVD camcorders

. Im certain to have my head bit off if I continue with this trend so.. ill just shhhh on that one.

redsox_mark · 13-06-2006, 8:44 PM

The IP7 is one of those microMV cams.... it isn't DV, so DV-in on the DVD recorder isn't of use. (though you could use S-video).

If you find the real time copy to the recorder an issue, then a DVD recorder would be a good way to go. I would think you'd need to finalize it before playing on a DVD player, but hopefully someone who has one will confirm.

Mark

dood · 14-06-2006, 6:54 AM

My understanding is that write once discs (DVD-R or DVD+R) have to be finalised before playing in a DVD player. This can be a pain if you want to view what's recorded before the disc is complete - but can be done through the camcorder cabled up to the TV. However, I think re-writable discs can be played in a DVD player before finalising.

One more thing, I ditched the DVD camcorder option for one reason only - the small DVD discs that I used (Verbatim) did not play in my DVD player. As it is, the Tosh is fussy with media and does not play +R, so the last thing I wanted was even more incompatibility with media.

**senu** · 14-06-2006, 8:13 AM

Hmmm......Yet ...another reason to go in favour of the settop recorder.
Ok.. no DV but you can still record to it from the Sony IP7 via a composite video or s-video for now and see

1)If your settop recoder accepts + or - R, that frees you from the need to use the DVD camcorders limited range of miniDVDs ( which also cost relatively more compared to Standard size) , have 1/3 of recording time, and are less widely available

2) This access to a wider range of the Standard size discs can help reduce the chances of incompatibility with other players

As for your disenchantment with the IP7 low light capabilities, poor low light abilities and uninspiring PQ can affect any sort of camcorder, be it DVD, miniDV or HDD.
If you dont have to fork out for a DVD recorder ( assuming it still works

). I would suggest you base your camcorder shortlist on criteria other than the undoubted sheer convenience of recording and just popping the DVD into the player: Such convenience may come at a cost
I am not so much as steering you away from one mind ,just trying to broaden your view without the going into the " DV vs HDD quality" debate as all that has been thrashed in threads linked in my first post
HTH

dejongj · 14-06-2006, 9:10 AM

Wow it is like I wrote the reasons myself....I totally hear what you are saying krismcewan....

I had/have (just not using it anymore) a Sony TRV-900e and had exactly the same reasoning as yourself...I had a stockpile of DV tapes that still needed editing. If my wife did take it with her to film sports day or a play or just something else, then she wouldn't know how to edit....Our AV setup is fully nicely chased in and integrated in our house, finding a powersocket to is the worst offender as the cable will have to go across the room...Then the front sockets of the Plasma show terrible quality anyway as the Camera doesn't have an RGB out, plus it would mean more cables....
Sure I've also got a DVD-Recorder, but I'm getting rid of that as just like recording of Sky is taking absolute ages and you have to watch the programme again as it would be in realtime recording from a camera..So it would be hogging the living room for at least an hour or hour and half....

Fine when some people on here like that, but not in our house please....

So I went out and bought a Sony DCR-DVD803e, the Asian import equivalent in PAL of the Sony DCR-DVD403e...Which has besides some of the improved optics etc also the build-in DD5.1 microphone (great fun and works amazingly well). This camera has been a godsend....Just pop in the little disc, record your scenes, finalize (if you haven't got a DVD recorder to play it on) which only takes 1 minute...otherwise it is instant, and watch and enjoy together with DVD Menu's and everything....

Now I've got used to the Camera I must admit that the quality is actually rather good....On a CRT TV (I don't have any anymore but noticed it at my parents) I can't tell the difference between DVD-HQ recording and miniDV, when blown up on a HD Ready 43 inch plasma a difference is noticeable on both...I think the DVD recordings look more digital, probably due to the MPEG compression applied at time of recording which you don't have as much control over as doing the MPEG compression yourself with miniDV but at least don't have to wait three hours and use a PC!!!

I would say get one! It is really good and advice provided by someone who actually has got a DVD Camcorder and a top of the range mini-DV (which is now gathering dust, and perhaps can be seen on eBay's 10p day...)

Personally I wouldn't go for the 205, especially when you can have the DCR-DVD803e for only £411....http://www.savastore.com/productinfo...id=44&rstrat=0

This is because the 405/805 is out now, but it is still an excellent camera....Read more about it on camcorderinfo...

redsox_mark · 14-06-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejongj

Wow it is like I wrote the reasons myself....I totally hear what you are saying krismcewan....

Jean-Paul, I thought the same, when the original post I thought it sounded like you!

Different flows for different people. What has surprised me the most is both of you have DVD recorders you don’t use. I guess that has to do with Sky. I don’t have Sky, and my DVD recorder gets lots of use. I use it for timeshifting, and I also archive some shows to DVD (in high speed). For me, the ability to do a realtime copy from the camcorder is just a bonus… and gives me a quick way to create DVDs from the camcorder which I am happy with. I connect a firewire cable between the cam and the recorder, and press a button. It only ties up the DVD recorder, it doesn’t tie up watching TV, or doing anything else in my sitting room. (And I don’t have any issues with power sockets and cables).

There is nothing wrong with a DVD recorder, and it seems the best solution for both of you.

Mark

dejongj · 14-06-2006, 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

There is nothing wrong with a DVD recorder, and it seems the best solution for both of you.

It is a problem as my DVD Recorder doesn't have a firewire input, thus I can only do the lower quality composite or s-Video...

It is a problem as my available power sockets are nicely hidden away behind all audio visual equipment, and the nearest other ones are either nearly 15 foot away on the opposite site of our room, or nearly 20 foot away on the same side of the wall past the open fireplace, etc.....

It is a problem problem as there are still extra activities to take place, like plug in the cables, sync the system, select the right inputs in the user interface make certain to select the right compression settings as it won't fit otherwise, wait for 1/1.5 hours etc...Not as simple as open the tray put in the DVD and press play....

Whether it is Sky or Freeview, I think I have totally outgrown a DVD Recorder due to the way it is linked...Sure if the DVD Recorder has got two freeview tuners that can record to hard disk and then at 16x speed dub it to DVD it would be a bit more interesting......

redsox_mark · 14-06-2006, 1:18 PM

Sorry, when I said "there is nothing wrong with a DVD recorder" I meant a DVD camcorder. I'm not trying to change your (or krismcewan's mind) on that. If for you, connecting a camcorder to a set top DVD recorder is difficult (as you have described), then a DVD camcorder is the right choice.
There is no other way to be able to shoot and instantly have a DVD to play.

Mark

dejongj · 14-06-2006, 1:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Sorry, when I said "there is nothing wrong with a DVD recorder" I meant a DVD camcorder. I'm not trying to change your (or krismcewan's mind) on that.

What a difference those three letter make....You just costed me 7 minutes of my life for nothing

Only kidding

As you stated in your previous post, it's different flows for different people...And to me it doesn't make any which way better for the rest of the world, just merely for the person who is using it....

**senu** · 14-06-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejongj

It is a problem as my DVD Recorder doesn't have a firewire input, thus I can only do the lower quality composite or s-Video...

It is a problem as my available power sockets are nicely hidden away behind all audio visual equipment, and the nearest other ones are either nearly 15 foot away on the opposite site of our room, or nearly 20 foot away on the same side of the wall past the open fireplace, etc.....

It is a problem problem as there are still extra activities to take place, like plug in the cables, sync the system, select the right inputs in the user interface make certain to select the right compression settings as it won't fit otherwise, wait for 1/1.5 hours etc...Not as simple as open the tray put in the DVD and press play....

Whether it is Sky or Freeview, I think I have totally outgrown a DVD Recorder due to the way it is linked...Sure if the DVD Recorder has got two freeview tuners that can record to hard disk and then at 16x speed dub it to DVD it would be a bit more interesting......

Ha ..Jean Paul : I was wondering ...where is he!!!

Not owning a DVD camcorder I can only speak for the alternatives

Surely shopping for a DVD recorder with a firewire input is not that hard

A scart multi adaptor is also fairly common
DVD recorders with HDD ( and freeview) can be had for less than £200
Not all of us have Sky plus ( Sky is now tempting us with sky HD)

All the activities involving sockets and cable need only be done once
If you only want 1 hrs worth of footage on a standard DVD during setup leave it on XP ( forever) : just the one and only time
DVD recorders with fast dubbing from HDD exist ( I have one)!
My point: Owning and using a DVD recorder aint really that painful

Certainly, DVD recorders dont suit everybody. insofar as as DVD camcorders also have limitations some people may not want to live with: That is why in addition to my post I linked previous threads.
Im not at all anti- DVD camcorder and its appeal of instant results( fast food??

) is undeniable but the world is full of choices and between the black and white world of miniDV and DVD camcorders there are shades of grey

In an Ideal world

I would own an FX1 , HC1, Everio or Sony HDD camcorder and a DVD camcorder, each used on the most appropriate situation. ( greedy boy!!)
As I have not won the lottery and do not posess any quality of a Premiere league football player ( 6 figure/week salary) That ideal world remains in my dreams

However If I had to( able to) have only one camcorder it would not be a DVD one

dejongj · 14-06-2006, 11:12 PM

I know that DVD recorders with fast dubbing exist, but long does it take to get it to the HDD in the first place, whether it is to the HDD or DVD doesn't make a difference, you still have to sit through it...And it is not a case of setting up the sockets and cables once, heck you haven't met my wife...She'll kill me if I leave the wires in sight...And to be fair I agree with her.....Owning and using a DVD recorder is no easier than a VCR I would say.....

But...could you give me a pointer to a twin freeview tuner, hardisk recorder with dvd writer and firewire inputs? Especially for less than £200....I promise I will go out and buy it tomorrow...

Anyway, peoples preferences are different....And perhaps when you actually have a DVD Camcorder you may change you mind

I do have the experience with an excellent mini-DV camcorder....Up on the 10p listing day tomorrow!

But it just depends what you want, I used to get great enjoyment out of video editing...And I still do because I don't have to if that makes sense....

**senu** · 14-06-2006, 11:35 PM

One thing we do have in common ( not a DVD camcorder

) is a wife who hates wires in sight
As such,I have become an expert at hiding wires!!!

Perhaps I will try and have a play with a DVD camcorder : These firms will let you " test drive" them if there is a chance you will buy a few

My LG DVD recorder has all ( HDD firewire etc) but the freeview tuner but since I have a few freeview boxes at home( lying fallow ) that does it for me. For £200! One of the reasons it got bought was the tedium of editing footage from MiniDV tapes( sometimes ) so Im with you there

Like most people,I actually find it hard to watch recorded programs too ( no time) but as its on the HDD .. One day

So no Sky plus in my house

But on the subject of recording footage, the footage can be watched while being recorded to HDD or DVD the first time.
Also the recorded DVD ( as with DVD camcorder) can still if desired be edited for content and menu with the likes of Womble
It is the versatility over a straight to DVD over the immediate results that I like: Just today I used content from a DVD from settop recorder and Slideshow from stills made with Proshow Gold on the PC to create a DVD containing both material
I suspect HDD camcorders / Solid state Media will eventually make disc based/ tape based recorders "older" technology in years to come

dejongj · 15-06-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senu

Perhaps I will try and have a play with a DVD camcorder : These firms will let you " test drive" them if there is a chance you will buy a few

Give it a try, and let us know...Perhaps I won't feel that lonely on here anymore

MarkE19 · 16-06-2006, 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

The IP7 is one of those microMV cams.... it isn't DV, so DV-in on the DVD recorder isn't of use.

No this cam is not DV but it does have a firewire port. I think Sony list it as MV-out rather than DV-out, but it is ieee1394. For a review of the camcorder that lists the specs see Here.
From the review:

Quote:

First, this isn't just a Handycam. It's a "Network Handycam IP".

That means it has wireless networking. It has Internet access. It has a USB connection, an "i.LINK" connection (the four-pin small-plug no-power-connectors flavour of IEEE-1394, "FireWire"), and Bluetooth connectivity as well.

Mark.

redsox_mark · 16-06-2006, 6:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkE19

No this cam is not DV but it does have a firewire port. I think Sony list it as MV-out rather than DV-out, but it is ieee1394. For a review of the camcorder that lists the specs see Here.
From the review:
Mark.

True, but at least with my DVD recorder, the firewire connection is specifically for DV only - it isn't a general purpose ieee1394 data transfer... the DVD recorder is expecting DV (and transcodes it on the fly to MPEG2). Feed it Micro-MV and it doesn't recognise it.

Mark

MarkE19 · 16-06-2006, 6:59 PM

The connection problem is probably due to the fact that microMV camcorders compress the video before writing to the tape, therefore the cam is not outputting the same data as a DV cam. A few years back when microMV was first released many of the editing programs couldn't work with it for this reason. It surprises me that modern set top DVD recorders don't work with the compressed MV data - perhaps you need to buy a more expensive Sony recorder to get it to work

Ho Hum, another great format from Sony that has obviously survived the test of time

Mark.

redsox_mark · 16-06-2006, 8:07 PM

Mark,

I don't think even the Sony recorders handle MicroMV (which has been dropped by Sony). Basically the DVD recorder contains the "software" to re-encode the DV input into MPEG2 output for DVD... and to keep it "simple" it is just for DV. Which is why on a DV recorder it is generally called a "DV" input, not a firewire/IEEE1394 input.

It won't handle HDV either.... obviously downconverting that would require further complexity in the recorder.

Mark