[Sam Leach]

I am planning to tour around Europe and maybe further (USA) for about a year. I am thinking of purchasing a Digital Camcorder to document the trip but I don’t know if I'll have enough money I will be camping and staying in hostels. Please note I am currently in Spain but could purchase the camcorder here or in the UK. Budget is up to 500€ but cheaper would be better.

What I (think) I need:

1) Long lasting battery
2) High storage capacity
3) Cam that will work well in most places
4) Medium/Good Quality
5) Good colour display
6) Strong

Explanations:

1) I don’t know when I will be able to recharge the battery. Should I consider buying 2 or 3 batteries? Will it be worth the extra €?
2) I will most likely be shooting 'everything' and then edit it all once I get home. What ever media I choose I will be mailing it back home periodically. I have my heart set on DVD as I don’t like the idea of tapes. Do the DVD cams record on-the-fly, they burn to the DVD disc itself in real time? After reading many reviews/guides people seem to think DVDs are hard to edit, but all you have to do is rip them to your Hard Drive. Then you will always have the unedited source on DVDs (backup). Or should I go for MiniDV?
3) I cannot foresee were I will be using the cam so I think it would be best to get one that overall covers every scenario. Basically outdoor/indoor, low/high light, wind, decent real zoom/good close focus. I realise all these things might be impossible with a budget cam...
4) The Video/Audio quality doesn’t have to anything special, just good enough to enjoy and appreciate the content. (I want highest quality I can afford obviously)
5) This will be the only way ill be able to watch the video so it must be clear. I could use cyber cafes and such but I musnt depend on them to watch the video.
6) Because I will be moving around a lot it will probably get a bit banged up, so it can’t be flimsy. The actual size is important but so far they all seem small to me.

What make/model of cam do you think best suits my needs? Thanks a lot for any advice on the matter.

[dejongj]

I agree, there is a real myth going around that DVD camcorders are difficult to edit...Absolute nonsense......

But for your use, I don't think a DVD camcorder is sturdy enough, secondly you wouldn't like the 20 minute recording time in high quality mode. Which is fine normally but not really I would imagine for a long trip you are on...And it is going to get costly in mini-DVD's to get loads of them.....
I think that for your useage mini-DV is the best option, they are light and compact to carry around...You can get top quality in LP mode for 90 minutes worth footage...

My first DV camera was a Sony TRV-900e, and when I looked last year I was really surprised how flimsy most models are....Personally I would recommend tracking down one of those...Increadibly sturdy, still compact, function fantastically on LP mode, big built-in LCD screen, full manual control, etc...

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by dejongj

I agree, there is a real myth going around that DVD camcorders are difficult to edit...Absolute nonsense......

This slightly off the original topic, but I don't think it is hijacking the thread...

I agree that a simple statement that DVD camcorders are difficult to edit is at least incomplete, possibly misleading. But there is logic behind DV being a better format for editing than MPEG2. The key to this being that DV is intra-frame compression only, so each frame has all the information needed to edit. There is also additional information in terms of colour space in DV.

What do I mean by better? Well one aspect of better is it takes less processing by the software/PC (doesn't need to constantly look at multiple frames), which depending on the software can actually make it easier to edit DV (previews will be faster, smoother). This does depend on the editor though, and also the complexity of the edits.

A second aspect is that when doing things like colour correction, it is hard to accuratly do this in MPEG2 (due to different colour space information).

And lastly, DV is virtually lossless when doing multiple renders/compressions (using a decent editor). You can for example do 10 generations of renders and not see any visible loss, with MPEG2 you clearly will.

I don't have any good references to show this comparing DV to MPEG2, but the same situation exists with HDV (which is MPEG2 based). Because of the above factors (and some others), "DV-like" formats have been created for HDV editing. Once such format is CineForm. This link gives a good description of why using a codec like CineForm is "better" than editing native MPEG2 for HDV... the arguments are similar for SD DV vs. SD MPEG2.
http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...tyAnalysis.htm

So you might say "who cares"? And that is valid. If:

- Your edits are relatively simple (cuts, transitions, text - as opposed to composting many tracks, colour correction, 3d motion, etc)
- The editor can "smart render" the MPEG2, only re-encoding what is needed, and
- Your final output is to be on DVD

Then editing MPEG2 can be easy. Quality can also be good, though rendering DV to MPEG2 in software (using a good encoder) can be better.

Sorry for the long reply. I agree simply saying MPEG2 is difficult to edit isn't helpful. But there are good reasons why DV is better for editing than MPEG2.

Back to the original question - if you can be sure to get one in good condition then I ageee a used TRV-900e or similar would fit the bill. If you want to go new, 500 Euro is about £340 pounds... Something like the Sony HC44 would come in comfortably in budget and meet the criteria... except not sure about "strong". Certainly it is much smaller and lighter than a TRV-900e, so that will make it seem more flimsy.... is it really less durable? I don't know. Durability isn't generally a criteria that gets much of a mention.

Mark

[dejongj]

Mark...I fully agree with you, and have the first hand experience that DV is 'better' for editing, and for quality as well I would add, though that is more subjective as I don't know of a single camera with the same internals but different recording mechanismes....

[redsox_mark]

I agree it is hard to answer the quality question - and I also do not know of any 2 cams which are identical except for the mechanism/format.

[toadoftoadhall]

get a camera that you can get cheap alternative batteries from ebay. Ebay is good for cheap DV tapes too.

[Sam Leach]

Ok, thanks a lot for all your suggestions. I didn’t even think about buying second hard. It’s a good idea.

At first I thought miniDVDs were just normal CD-Rs but with 700MB of storage but now I realise they are actually 'mini' and are 8cm in diameter. lol So you can fit 1.4GB of DVD format video (vobs & ifos) onto these. These do seem very expensive for only 1.4GB.

I don’t like the price or 20mins storage so I think DVDs are out of the question.

Are miniDV tapes reliable, do they ever get chewed up? I have always had bad luck when it comes to tapes (VHS, music, old analogue cam tapes)

Editing wise I will only be cutting scenes and maybe adding some text so nothing special.

This is not as important but could I convert old vhs tapes into digital using a digital cam? Just a thought.

I’ll try to find a TRV-900e or something similar. I’ll post any decent looking ones I find and hopefully get some feedback from you guys.

EDIT: I normally get all my media from ebay, what make of DV tapes should I go for?

[dejongj]

My TRV900e is now 10 years old! Quality is still with the very very best you can buy today and I never had a chewed up tape...So in my experience they are very reliable....

If the camera has got inputs then you could hook up a VCR to record directly on it...No problem....

I used to get the Sony Memory Tapes...But as Costco here in the UK is so cheap for miniDV...I think 10 JVC for £10 or there abouts (I honestly don't look at the price )....I don't bother with anywhere else....

[Sam Leach]

I am not saying that the TRV900e is bad or anything but buying digital technology that is 10 years old is not very smart in my opinion. Surely digital camcorders have come a long way since then.

Please note I know close to nothing about camcorders and you guys do but 10 years is a long time technology wise...how is it as good as the new ones?

[senu]

The TRV 900 was ahead of its time and even then it was never a "budget" MiniDV camcorder. If I recall well it sold for about £1500 when new
I wouldnt call it "old" technology by any means However unless barely used your fear about wear and tear may be well founded

Although MiniDV technology is now mature as to have previous high end features for a lot less, ironically many of the new Camcorders especially the cheaper ones have atrocious build and suspect PQ quality and seem almost "disposable"

Around the 500 euro/Pounds mark will get you one of the better implemented "modern" ones
I rather like this Thread .

I am partial to the Panasonics ( 3CCD ie GS250/300 )but having had access to all the brands and recently purchased a Sony HDV (HC1) camcorder Im a bit loath to suggest a particular brand and model no. Im sure there are many here who will no doubt have a shortlist of favourites. Your (very reasonable) list of "wants" will probably never be fully met but Im sure there is a decent all rounder out thre within your budget

[Sam Leach]

I would only buy a second hand one if it was still under guarantee. I am sure you all understand why. I have been looking on eBay and at the Sony HC44(@new) (which was mentioned here I think).

I had read through that thread before but I think the cam he finally bought was over my budget.

[toadoftoadhall]

On ebay there is a shop called Canon Outlet.
They do "refurbished" canons witha 12 month guarentee.

try for something like mine, a mvx 330i, an excellent camera.

toad

[rickyt]

No need to buy second hand when there are bargains out there .I know it is difficult to pick out models and brands as they all have there good and bad points .If your travelling you want something small & light , I would opt for a mini-DV and take a load of tapes with you . There easily stored and easy to work with when it comes to capturing onto PC & the quality is very good. I decided to upgrade a couple of years ago and I bought a Sharp vl-wd450 ,nice camera in it's own right but I saw the Panasonic nv-gs11 and bought that too . Wow , what a nice little camera . I bought 2 new batterys from *-bay together with a charger that works at home and in the car quite cheaply.I now use the Panny all the time . I bought a digital camera case from *essops and keep it on a belt when I'm out and about ,it's really small and I have no complaints with the picture quality .I use Pinnacle 8 to capture and edit [also Vegas 4] and the results are great. So , you dont want to be spending loads of dosh when some buget range camera's still do the job very well . You want something simple to use , carry & operate .As far as prices go , I've seen some Sony's down at Makro for as little as £149 plus VAT of course . Not bad prices at all .Hope this helps.