I have been looking at possibilities for DVD Camcorders. The advertising for these implies that one can record events onto DVD and then watch your videos on your DVD player. As someone who has already found that most DVD players are tetchy about replaying one or more formats of recordable DVD what is magic about the format used in these camcorders?

Since the only guaranteed way of "preserving" these DVD's is to download to ones PC surely DVD camcorders are dead in their starting blocks as they are probably less flexible than DV or D8 units and ceratinly an HDD camcorder is streets in front

Confused?

[redsox_mark]

There is some truth that with any recordable DVD (whether producing them on a PC, with a set top DVD recorder, or a camcorder), there can be compatability issues. Especially if poor quality media is used. And the rewritable formats like DVD-RW are less compatible than DVD-R. But with using a good quality DVD-R disc you should not have many problems. I don't think there is any evidence that DVD camcorders are any worse at compatibility than other DVD recording devices.

Mark

You can indeed take the DVD out of your camera and play it in a DVD player - don't remember many people complaining that they have had problems doing that.

The main disadvantage of DVD camcorders as far as I can see is that they record in the lower quality mpeg format rather than the high quality of DV-AVI.

you can still transfer from the DVD to your PC for editing - but editing mpegs is not generally recommended as it can cause problems.

[MarkE19]

The only real way to "preserve" the footage IMO is to record it to tape. A tape backup device for a PC is not cheap and therefore I think the best option is to record it to tape in the first place, ie use a miniDV camcorder. I also copy the edited footage back to a new DV tape to save time should I need to work from it again in the future. No DVD is good for archiving your footage as they are too easily damaged and can suffer from 'DVD rot' that can make a disc unplayable in a very short period of time. IMO even a HDD is not a viable option for archiving as they are too expensive & bulky to keep too many of and being mechanicle can easily break down.

Mark.

Many thanks to all for replies. However do not agree with Beejaycee as my experience with distributing DVD's made on my DVD recorder and my PC +/-R/RW drive to freinds and family on the best quality media says as follows:-
Around 50% of players either stand alone or PC drives will not play +/-RW and since some paly one but not the other about 80% of players are troublesome with one or the other format..
Around 30 % will not play -R and a similar but different percentage will not play +R....except that virtually all will play a +R produced on a PC +RW drive and bookmarked to DVD-ROM.

Since the camcorder will almost certainly not have the latter PC type facility I cannot see that I can shoot some footage and then expect to replay it on various DVD players.

I do go allong with MarkE19's comments however. Thinking about it he is right and the best bet is still a Mini DV camcorder.

[redsox_mark]

I'm not a fan of DVD camcorders, and I agree that miniDV is generally better for editing etc... but I don't think your experience with such very low compatibility is common. Perhaps you have a bad model.

Mark

[MarkE19]

I agree with (the other) Mark. Compatability of recordable media on just about all modern DVD players is normally very good. If you are having trouble getting discs to play then I suggest you try a different make/dye. Also burn at a lower speed helps, stick to 1x for best compatability but 4x should work well on most players. Updating the DVD authoring software (for a PC or Mac) should also help if what you are useing is not up to date.

Mark.

we burn all the School Christmas plays and Summer assemblies on to DVD using PC's - on average our return rate is about one in two hundred - and then a quick replacement solves the problem - you really need to investigate Analogue and find where your problem lays.

I repeat what I said earlier - I don't see very many (if any) posts on here from people who say that their mini DVD from their camcorder will not play - I am sure if it was as bad as you say Analogue these forums would be stacked with cries for help.

Beejaycee

You say that you are distributing copies made on a PC drive. OK what media are you using. Is it DVD+R? then as I say it is probable that your PC is bookmarking these to DVD-ROM in which case yes they will play on 90%+ DVD players as I said in my previous post. If it is DVD-R then yes this is second best and in my experience plays on around 7 /10 players so you may be lucky that your customer base is using cheapo supermarket brand DVD players. Surprisingly it is the blue chip brands that are more likely to fail.

This problem is a continuous source of discussion on other forums

My question was related to the implied universality of DVD's recorded on a camcorder .

This is now not an issue as other posts have persuaded me that DV is still the best.

[senu]

If your budget extends to it, consider buying a Camcorder that can record HD and record in that format, but edit in SD for now . The SD PQ from HD camcorders seems to simply beat the SD ones ( at a cost) Im aspiring to get the slowly vanishing sony HC1 since I have to return an FX1 Ive had on "loan" for a while.
My experience with PC sourced DVDs is that DVD-R or +R seem to be universally compatible ( or not) and most recent DVD players will play any although the "£20" supermarket ( and indeed 1 or 2 "Premium") players will still fuss over cheaper media regardless of format

[dejongj]

I have got both a DV (TRV900e) and DVD (DVD803e) Camcorder...I honesty can't say that I haven't found any compatibility problems with playing back the produced mini-DVD's......As long as they are finalised....Just as easy to unfinalise them afterwards....

I've even found that the DVD-VR format works well (so no need to finalise) in DVD recorders....

Also don't be fooled into thinking that your tapes last forever, and even if the tape does contain the content, that's no guarantee that the mechanisme on which it is stored will last.....

And editing of MPEG2 is now just as easy as it is editing DV....

Compared to a top DV camera (like the TRV900E) DVD doesn't win, but compared to some of the cheaper ones it could blow it away...Remember it is not just about the format...The quality of the lens is still very important to.....

[senu]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Also don't be fooled into thinking that your tapes last forever, and even if the tape does contain the content, that's no guarantee that the mechanisme on which it is stored will last

.....True but DVDs especially (-R and+ R) are infact gennerally very prone to surface scratches and as such are just as "delicate" as tape if not more so

And editing of MPEG2 is now just as easy as it is editing DV....

Maybe . but at present dedicated mpeg editing software seems to be very feature "lean".
Because HDV is mpeg2, they will be better featured as time goes on, The future of mpeg editing seems assured as it will be driven by the need to edit HD footage but it is not mainstream just yet.

Compared to a top DV camera (like the TRV900E) DVD doesn't win, but compared to some of the cheaper ones it could blow it away...Remember it is not just about the format...The quality of the lens is still very important to

......In addition to ccd chips and image processing circuitry

IMHO I feel most mid range MiniDV camcorders will do better than any DVD camcorder for PQ.
As an analogy, I had a Sony digital 8 (still have) Sony camcorder whose output is arguably superior to many lower MiniDV camcorders . I soon had to move on to mini DV because nobody was making "mid range" to " high end Prosumer" digital 8. With miniDv you could count on getting a superlative camcorder :eg Sony VX 2100 or Canon MX2, In the same way, This is highly unlikely to happen with DVD camcorders as the manufacturers seem to see them as a convenience rather than a seriuos tool for medium to high end prosumer users
There is obviously a market for all but if you want a stab at High quality, DVD camcorders while not nessesarily about low end are really more about convinence and instant access

[lurcher]

Originally Posted by senu

.....There is obviously a market for all but if you want a stab at High quality, DVD camcorders while not nessesarily about low end are really more about convinence and instant access

Couldn"t agree more , I have a JVC MZ50 Hard Drive Camcorder , which I just mount inside the car , switch on and leave it to record driving lessons. Access to recordings are instant via on screen thumbnail then I transfer anything needed to DVD.
Quality is very good at the highest seting but not up there with the Mini Dv camcorder I have had.
Looking at a HC1 now for normal use.

[dejongj]

I never said that DVD's aren't scratch prone, I just highlighted that tape has got weaknesses as well.

Personally I wouldn't call Premiere Pro, Avid Liquid feature lean...But hey opinions differ....

I fully agree that DVD Camcorders is not a professionals tool and I agree it never will in MPEG2 format....But don't just discount the good DVD camcorder ones, some are very good, just like their are some very bad miniDV ones....

And let's face it when things are getting compared to VX2100 or MX2 or perhaps even HC1 then a lot of miniDV camcorders wouldn't make the grade either.....

[senu]

Originally Posted by dejongj

I never said that DVD's aren't scratch prone, I just highlighted that tape has got weaknesses as well.

Personally I wouldn't call Premiere Pro, Avid Liquid feature lean...But hey opinions differ....

I fully agree that DVD Camcorders is not a professionals tool and I agree it never will in MPEG2 format....But don't just discount the good DVD camcorder ones, some are very good, just like their are some very bad miniDV ones....

And let's face it when things are getting compared to VX2100 or MX2 or perhaps even HC1 then a lot of miniDV camcorders wouldn't make the grade either.....

Point taken
I am however not anti-DVD camcorder either but feel the manufacturers seem to percieve their target market as narrow: Convenience first ,high PQ next. This then perhaps makes them pay a little less attention to PQ but as you point out there are also atrocious examples of MiniDV camcorders

Hence my example of a "compromise format was the Digital8 format which though technologically fine, Sony in its wisdom has not supported beyond entry level:
As such It was the Digital 8 and not DVD camcorders I was comparing to the "better" miniDV camcorders ,

By mpeg editors I meant the likes of Womble/Video Redo .

I use Liquid 6.1 and 7 quite freqently and know they are by no means feature "lean" but then they really are not primarily mpeg editors

[redsox_mark]

On the point of ease/power of editing DV vs mpeg: I agree native support for mpeg editing is getting better, and as HDV uses it will continue to do so. But it does remain that an intra-frame only compression scheme like DV (or CineForm with HDV) will remain "better" for editing in a number of ways.

With a good DV editor like Vegas, there is virtually no loss in multiple renders. Tests have been done where there have been 100 render cycles and you can't see any difference. While you normally don't need to do lots of renders, if you have a very complex project it is useful to be able to render parts, and then include those parts in another render etc. Now smart rendering helps, but the fact remains that with mpeg if you need to re-render everything (e.g. do some colour correction on the entire video) you will lose quality when you re-render that you don't get with DV.

Which is why even with HDV, Vegas uses and recommends an intermediate (CineForm) codec, which like DV uses intra-frame compression.

Now most people don't need to do multiple render cycles and complex edits, so a powerful editor with smart rendering of mpeg2 will do fine... but there will always be advantages to using a less compressed format like DV for editing.

Mark

[senu]

If I must say one thing in favour of DVD camcorders or "straight to DVD" it is that many MiniDV tapes actually never get edited
.
This may be as a result of laziness ( Im very guilty there ) or the footage isnt worth the effort.
There are however many software programs which use the power of modern PCs to "record direct to DVD".
There is also the option of a good low cost settop DVD recorder. These methods offer (in a way) the best of both worlds

As the original poster can I thank all for many useful comments on DVD versus DV camcorders, many of which underline my own conclusions about ease of capture and editing using the latter..

However my original post was aimed at the trade description which is in conflict with my own experience using a reasonably upmarket multi-format DVD recorder and top quality recordable DVD's.

I would greatly appreciate an answer from Beejaycee as I suspect that he is using modern PC drives with DVD+R's which as I have repeated several times are without doubt virtually universal as they are probably being book-marked to DVD-ROM.

I very much doubt however that any camcorder has the facility to produce such bookmarked discs. I thus expect to find that finalised +/-R discs from a camcorder have at best a 70-75% compatability with external DVD players, and with +/-RW discs considerably less compatable.

[redsox_mark]

I have had the same results as Beejaycee (also with school plays). Over the past 3 years I've produced over 500 discs on a PC, using DVD-R (with no special bookmarking, in fact my drive can't do that), without a single return.
I've used Verbatim branded Taiyo Yuden discs.
I also have a set top DVD recorder, and while I haven't done the same volume I've not had any problems with these either.

I haven't used a DVD camcorder, but as I said I haven't seen any evidence that they are any less compatible than a PC or DVD recorder.

I accept that no recorderable disc is guaranteed to be 100% compatible, regardless of PC/recorder/camcorder - especially if played in an older player. But with good media in general they work, and I see no reason why that can't also be the case with a DVD camcorder.

Mark

[dejongj]

And as the owner of a DVD Camcorder I haven't yet found a player that can't playback the finalised product! Whether it be -R or -RW, it all works....
In addition I have also noticed that even when the discs are not finalised, every single Consumer DVD recorder appliance can read them and edit them as well.....

I find last two posts amazing, I also tried Verbatim -R recordings both from DVD recorder and PC rewriter, around 2-3 in 10 players either did not recognise disc or gave jerky playback.

I find dejongj 's comments even more amazing I have NEVER been able to take an unfinalised disc from either of my recording devices and played it on another player/ recorder. Just to check I went to my neighbour who has a recent Panny DVDR and took an unfinalised Verbatim DVD-R to six other players that I, he and another neighbour have (3xPC 2xDVDR(non panny) and one player (cheapo). It played on none!

Dejongj are you recording in VR mode on your camcorder possibly? Are you using a Panny camcorder and are your test DVDR's/players also Panny or possibly sister company JVC?

[dejongj]

Yes that is in VR mode...My Camcorder is a Sony DCR-DVD803e, using JVC DVD-RW for Handycam mini-DVD's and I've tried it on a Sony GX300 (I think, the entry level DVD recorder) a Panny 55 (again the entry level, I've got cheap friends ), and Philips one model number unknown at my Parents in Holland and an unknown brand super cheapo at my sisters in Holland....

[senu]

I dont own a DVD camcorder We did however have a Panasonic desktop DVD recorder.
I must say that all the DVDs made on the Panasonic and the PC ( I dont know about bookmarking to DVD-ROM) with Liquid, Ulead Moviefactory /Workshop and duplicated via DVD Shrink/Nero have played on everything .
However Proshowgold produces some "unplayable" DVDs.
I now stick to mainly to Ritek or Verbatim DVD- or +R.
In the Past we owned a fussy Toshiba player which would not play DVD Shrink sourced DVDs whatever the media but have had no such "rejection" since then
This experience contrasts with my friend who makes DVDs for clients off his Phillips DVD settop and has had several clients ringing up to complain that they are unwatchable.

Admittedly, he doesnt use "premium" grade DVD+R and does try to fill up a DVD with several hrs worth of video: I sometimes replicate those DVDs and they then seem to get better compatibility.
IMHO universal compatibility is utopia as the media, burning hardware and mastering software probably all contribute to compatibility but I'd agree with earlier posters that it is rather much less of a problem now than it used to be

Thank you dejongj for your reply. So can i get this right? Your Sony Camcorder records in -VR mode onto JVC -RW mini discs and these one and the same unfinalised discs play on your Sony DVDR, a Panny DVDR, a Philips DVDR/player of unknown pedigree and a Supamkt brand player? I was not aware that DVD camcorders could record in -VR format and I thought could only record in -R/-RW or +R/+RW formats.

Musy confess I have never tried transporting -VR format recorded -R discs. As I said earlier highest success rate has been with +R's recorded on PC and bookmarked to DVD-ROM (I understand only possible with +R's on a PC DVD Rewriter)

Senu
The facility to bookmark DVD+R's to DVD-ROM is a function of your hardware and its associated firmware and is independent of the S/W used. If your PC DVDrewriter is enabled for this mode it appears it is automatically applied if a DVD+R is the target recordable media. Apparently (Iam no expert) most top brand PC DVD Rewriters supplied in the last 2 years will either incorporate this feature or can be firmware upgraded to bookmark to this format.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Analogue

Senu
The facility to bookmark DVD+R's to DVD-ROM is a function of your hardware and its associated firmware and is independent of the S/W used. If your PC DVDrewriter is enabled for this mode it appears it is automatically applied if a DVD+R is the target recordable media. Apparently (Iam no expert) most top brand PC DVD Rewriters supplied in the last 2 years will either incorporate this feature or can be firmware upgraded to bookmark to this format.

Thanks for that information I do use a Pioneer 109 and 110 so they probably do.
Just to help me out of my ignorance, just what does "DVD Rom bookmarking" imply?

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by Analogue

Thank you dejongj for your reply. So can i get this right? Your Sony Camcorder records in -VR mode onto JVC -RW mini discs and these one and the same unfinalised discs play on your Sony DVDR, a Panny DVDR, a Philips DVDR/player of unknown pedigree and a Supamkt brand player? I was not aware that DVD camcorders could record in -VR format and I thought could only record in -R/-RW or +R/+RW formats.

Musy confess I have never tried transporting -VR format recorded -R discs. As I said earlier highest success rate has been with +R's recorded on PC and bookmarked to DVD-ROM (I understand only possible with +R's on a PC DVD Rewriter)

That is correct indeed! When you put in a new disc you can choose on how you want to use it. In the -VR mode you get the usual .VRO files on the disc....In -VR mode I don't have to finalise the discs to play them back on DVD recorders.....If I use normal -RW or -R modes I do have to finalise them, but then there is no compatibility problems either. And to unfinalise to continue filming only takes 5 seconds.....

Hope this helps....

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by senu

Thanks for that information I do use a Pioneer 109 and 110 so they probably do.
Just to help me out of my ignorance, just what does "DVD Rom bookmarking" imply?

On a recordable DVD there is information in the header giving the disc type. So with a DVD+R it would show as “DVD+R”. Some players reject +R discs by design (my Tosh DVD recorder does this – if it sees +R it rejects it). Bookmarking overwrites this… DVD-ROM is what a commercial DVD is marked as, so this bookmarking trick will increase the compatibility for +R media.

With –R I don’t believe this is possible… but there generally are few issues with (good quality) –R media.

Mark

Redsox Mark

Many thanks for saving me the trouble on explanation of bookmarking. As I do not fully understand this myself I certainly could not have put it plainer. Effectively it makes a DVD+R look like a commercial disc and by repute will play on 90%++ Players, DVDR's, PC players/rewriters etc. All I know is I have not had a failure reported back personally.

Must confess however do not share your experience with DVD-R however. It may be that the latest players will accept this format also 90% plus but my trials have been with family/friends abroad whose players are of various brands/vintages. As I have said before success is 70-75% at best which is similar to straight unbookmarked DVD+R although the 25-30% failures are on different players. Of the players that give problems with either format very few actually reject the disc but freeze or give jerky motion effects making the disc unwatchable. These results are based on top quality media Verbatim, Maxell etc

I have never tried -VR format although my DVDR supports this. So I will experiment on the transportability of this format - unfinalised?!

However my requirement is to use the camcorder to shoot footage which can then be imported easily to PC, edited and then burnt onto DVD in multiples for distribution. I gather that therefore using a DV camcorder and importing to PC in .avi is better from quality/editability/ audio sync aspects. Then as I say I can burn onto DVD+R bookmarked to DVD-ROM with no distribution/circulation problems.

As with my original post I still feel the advertising for DVD camcorders is an overstatement in terms of the universality of their recorded discs. Unless -VR is the magic format that I originally mentioned.

[dejongj]

With respect I do think you are unlucky in your experiences....Even my Kenwood player from 1996 doesn't have any problems playing back DVD-R and the format didn't even exist yet!

Where I have had problems I can 99% of the time trace them back to the cheap media that I used, i.e. DVD's in a spindle worth 15p each....Or actually something in the edit that I have done wrong....

DVD-R has always been and still is the compatible format.....It might very well be the discs or software that was causing those problems....

Also you may feel the advertising is wrong, but I actually use the product and have a total different experience...quite a powerful distinction I would say!