[EdBrown]

I'm looking to replace my video camera and stills camera with one decent unit, I know that the stills capability of most video cameras is sadly lacking: But I'm fed up with carrying both around and worrying about charging 2 lots of batteries etc. on holiday so I am hoping that somebody can point me to the best of the bunch from current or soon to be available models which can do both jobs.
I suppose ideally I'd be looking for a 2 - 3 MP stills capability (high hopes I hear you cry! ... ok the best I can get) combined with a really decent optical zoom to make up for the lower resolution (25x optical or more would be fantastic with a half reasonable MP still, but again I suppose they haven't made my dream machine yet).
Anyone able to give me a pointer please??

[mandm]

These forums are brilliant; particularly when you come across views/feelings shared by someone else. On the recent holiday trip it became apparent to us that lugging these separate units caused mishaps hence we decided that its time to get combo unit. It’s interesting to see that your desire spec is what I was after hence visiting this section. While I was looking for an answer I found the question.
Now I just have wait and hope that there is a camcorder out there that can fulfill the above criteria.

[tdodd]

My own investigations into this have led me to the Canon Optura 600, which I think is the MVX4i in the UK, and the JVC GR-X5.

Review links here....

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

[Bearded_Malc]

For the same reasons I also wanted a combined unit. I opted for the Sony HC90. 3MP but in widescreen about 2M. It is true widescreen too which was another must for me. The stills are reasonable but of course it is not quite as good as a true stills camera. For one the picture takes a noticeable time to save to memory card. Stills cameras normally have a buffer so you can take 3 pictures in quick sucession. You don't have that on the HC90 so it takes a second or 2 before you can take the next shot.

Zoom is only 10x but you can opt to have digital zoom too and limit the total to 20x. Since it has more pixels than needed for video it seems reasonable to allow a bit of digital zoom as this shouldn't affect the video (much anyway).

[senu]

Have a look at This thread
You might find it interesting

[mandm]

thanks guys for your help, will do the reference reading

[EdBrown]

Thanks for those with references and other comments.
I think the manufacturers need to take this bull by the horns, obviously there is great demand for the dual unit for the reasons stated and irrespective of the fact that the technology differs for video or still, it is not a problem that is insurmountable. Use of the same lens is perfectly acceptable, with a decent optical zoom (minimum 20x ideally 25x +) a reasonable MP capability (2 - 4MP) will give us what we want, writing stills to a memory card is obviously the best option but it needs a reasonable buffer to the MC to allow further shots to be taken without undue delay ... first manufacturer in with the solution is going to be swamped with orders!!!

[EdBrown]

Just looked at the suggestions from Tdodd "My own investigations into this have led me to the Canon Optura 600, which I think is the MVX4i in the UK, and the JVC GR-X5."
Both models going the right way as far as MP are concerned but unfortunately have limited their optical zooms to 10x ....disappointing

[tdodd]

The problem with expecting good quality and a high optical zoom factor is that it does not exist. You can get high zoom figures but only on the camcorders with small (1/6") imaging chips. You will notice that as the camcorder quality (and the imager size) increase the optical zoom range tends to shrink. That is by necessity if you want to keep the overall size of the camcorder to compact and consumer friendly dimensions.

You can have quality or a high zoom ratio but not both, unless you want to pay a couple of grand or more and cart a monolith about with you. Consumer models are built to a size and a price. Technical compromises have to be made somewhere to achieve those goals.

[EdBrown]

Sorry but I have to disagree on that, my video camera (a Sharp VL-WD450H) has been around some time and many would consider it large by today's standards yet it is still easily operable with one hand if necessary.
With the improvements in technology that have allowed the manufactures to reduce the size of video cameras with equal capabilities to mine in units of half the size; then the extra requirements could easily be accommodated within a unit of equal size ....hardly a monolith!
As I said above: The first manufacturer to actually produce this item (which is quite obviously wanted by many) is going to be well rewarded.

[tdodd]

But what about low light performance? Everything I have read recently seems to suggest that the pursuit of ever smaller devices and the consequent need to use smaller imaging chips means that each individual pixel has to be smaller too and that means less sensitivity to light and hence poorer performance (increasing noise, reduced colour and possibly worse autofocus) in lower light conditions.

I don't think you can squeeze 4MP onto a single 1/6" chip and if you could you would need several thousand lux to get it to work properly. If you want 4MP then the chip will have to be bigger and if that's the case then you will need much bigger and more expensive glass to zoom beyond 10X. Look at the size of the lenses on the Panasonic DMC-FZ30 (12X zoom) or the Samsung Pro815 (15X zoom) cameras. By camcorder standards they are massive but that's because they have a larger image sensing chip, 8MP in their case.

[EdBrown]

Thanks for that, it gives more hope to the prospects and possibilities of my machine being produced. The lens on the Panasonic DMC-FZ30 actually looks smaller than the lens on my Sharp VL-WD450H !!

[GarryF]

[QUOTE=EdBrown]
With the improvements in technology that have allowed the manufactures to reduce the size of video cameras with equal capabilities to mine in units of half the size; then the extra requirements could easily be accommodated within a unit of equal size ....hardly a monolith!
QUOTE]

To be honest I think most people would then pick the video camera at half the size and a seperate stills camera rather than carry around a large combined unit.

I'd agree that there's no unit that currently fits the bill perfectly, I ended up going for the mvx4i and so far have been enjoying it, no compromises on video and the stills outdoor can compare to my canon G2. Indoor pictures have a bit more grain I think, I need to play with the settings and take a few more pics.

Things will probably change a lot in the next few years, how about a camera with 64gb of solid state memory http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/04...gb_flash_disk/
That would make a nice small compact model, but by the time the costs on that drop everyone will want HD Cameras and we'll need more storage, it never ends

[tdodd]

Have a look here.....

http://www.pictureline.com/newslette...er/pixels.html

for some insight into why it is impossible to have a small, high quality, high zoom, high megapixel digicam/camcorder that will perform well in low light, or even in any light, period.

- If you want several megapixels you need a larger imaging chip.

- If you want good performance in low light you need a large imaging chip and/or a low pixel count.

- If you want high optical zoom ratios you need a small imaging chip or a humungous lens.

- You can't put all the above in a small package in one go.

- PAL video has a resolution of just 720*576 = 0.4 MP. Even allowing for electronic image stabilisation there is no merit in more than 1.0 MP for standard definition video. That's why an 800K 1/6" imager is fine (sort of, if you don't want good low light performance) for video work on a low end camcorder and might even give you up to 32X optical zoom.

But if you want to add a photo capability of a few MP then you'll need a larger imager chip and you'll also need to accept a reduced optical zoom ratio or buy a far larger camcorder with the appropriate optics to handle the larger imager.