Ive been trawling through the threads to find out all I need to get on with purchasing the Sony HDR HC1. Theres a wealth of quality information available on AVForums, some of which I understood and some made my head spin. Anyhow, Im planning on getting

HDR HC1
Sony Vegas

I have a 3yr old Sony Vaio Laptop but will be upgrading to accomodate Sony Vegas. I want to edit in HD and so as I can keep the footage complete in HD.

What I basically want to know is the following;

1. What is the best process for taking HD footage, editing then downcoverting and sticking it on a dvd?
2. Go for another Sony Vaio or a MAC such as an ibook G4
3. Is Sony Vegas adequate for doing this

Thanks in advance for any comments.

[redsox_mark]

I have a HC1, use Sony Vegas, and edit on a laptop (Dell D610).

1. What is the best process for taking HD footage, editing then downcoverting and sticking it on a dvd?

Best process is to capture the HD into the editor (let’s assume it is Vegas), edit the HD footage*, then downconvert in Vegas at the end to SD mpeg for DVD.

*There are several ways to do this, depending on PC speed and preference. You can edit the raw M2t files in Vegas, though this can be sluggish (even on a decent PC if you add complex effects etc). Vegas doesn’t “smart render” the m2t files, so it will re-encode everything. Also if you do things like colour correction, that doesn’t work well on the m2t files. So in short, editing raw m2t files in Vegas is not recommended. The recommended options are either to render to an intermediate codec (CineForm) which edits much “like DV” but with the HD image, or use a DV proxy and edit that, swapping the proxy out for the original m2t at the end. Sounds complicated, but really isn’t; it is just that the various options you can use make it a bit confusing.

If you are only going to be creating a SD DVD you can save effort by having the camera downconvert and working in DV, but the quality will be slightly less, and also you won’t have a HD “master” at the end (which you could later create a HD DVD when they exist).


2. Go for another Sony Vaio or a MAC such as an ibook G4

Well, if you are going to run Vegas, you need a Windows based PC, Vegas doesn’t run on a MAC. (unless you run Windows itself on a MAC, which I believe is possible, but not sure if this would be a good solution). Or, you could go the MAC route and use Final Cut Pro. (I’m a Windows/Vegas user only, so can’t give a fair comparison).


3. Is Sony Vegas adequate for doing this

Yes. There are many Vegas users including myself using Vegas for HD with a HC1 (or A1, FX1, Z1).

Is it the best solution? I don’t know… I’ve used Vegas for several years so am biased to it. The main downside, if you can call it that, with Vegas is it doesn’t do so well editing the raw m2t stream, it is best with using an intermediate codec. The Vegas camp argues that this is the best flow; with the CineForm codec you can do multiple renders without quality loss, and you can colour correct, etc that you can’t really do on a mpeg2 based m2t. Others would argue why do an additional render to an intermediate format if you don’t have to, and that “smart editing” the raw m2t is better.

Sorry if this confuses you even more. I can recommend Vegas, just want to be objective and recognise there are other solutions.

Last thing to add about Vegas, it has an exceptional users forum – very active, with many helpful experts. So if you get stuck there is lots of help available.

Mark

Thanks for pointers and info, its exactly what I was looking for.

I only threw the MAC/Vaio option in as I was thinking about FCP which I know runs on the MAC, but as Sony Vegas is up to the task then il go with another Vaio.

Thanks again for the pointers, I can now make a few purchases and rack up some more debt!.

[redsox_mark]

Here is a link which explains about using an intermediate codec:

http://www.vasst.com/HDV/hdv-FAQ.htm#intermediate

It is somewhat out of date though... it says you need to buy the codec; with Vegas 6 it comes with it. (though you can still buy Connect HD to be able to capture in the intermediate format in real time).

Mark

[senu]

Mark
Excellent answers to my unasked questions especially as the HD camcorder is inching my way ever so slowly!
One other question
is the VASST the definitive Vegas Forum?
Im finally getting curious about it though it is a bit of a culture shock coming from AL7 which is great . Im am obliged to use Vegas 6 and give a feedback . Seems nice but Im finding that workflow and GUI for Liquid are quite different .
First impressions :It runs very quick on a modest system

[redsox_mark]

No, VASST provides Vegas training, and is a great site in itself for information, and also scripts/plug-ins for Vegas. But it is not the forum.

The Sony Vegas forum is here:

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/for....asp?ForumID=4

Mark

While I still think of it can a HDR HC1 user inform me of the quality of footage shot at 24fps? Supposidly quoted as the 'cinematic' mode but I would be interested if someone can give me an idea of the quality against ather frame rates and what this 'cinematic' mode really offers in comparison to actual cinematic film footage.
Cheers.

[simey]

You may want to delay purchasing a HDR HC1 For a few weeks. Sony have just announced a new HD model that will hit the shops in April. The HDR-HC3E is smaller and lighter than the HC1, Sony also claim “higher image quality”.

You can read more here http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowProdu...EMC-06EM12DIME

The cheapest I’ve found it listed on the net is £789.99 including a free case. http://www.bestcameras.co.uk/shop/ac...amera_732.html

Even if you still want the HC1 it would be worth waiting as the price will probably drop when the new model’s out.

[senu]

Why is it still £1200 at Jessops?
( saw it Today at Greenford)

Originally Posted by simey

The cheapest I’ve found it listed on the net is £789.99 including a free case. http://www.bestcameras.co.uk/shop/ac...amera_732.html

Even this site is still offering the HDR HC1 at £1119.99?!?! Im sure theres a discussion on here somewhere about the overall specifications on the HC3 not being as good as the HC1. I think the HC3 is just Sony turning the HC1 into an even more of a 'Point and Shoot' than it already is.

[redsox_mark]

There are pros and cons comparing the HC1 to the HC3...and I haven't seen any comparisons of footage yet between the two.

The HC3 has some advantages: better lux rating (5 vs 7), smaller (though this is not always better), and has a better resolution display.

But HC1 has an external microphone input which the HC3 doesn't.... it also has the focus ring which makes using manual focus much more easy.

Possibly the "problem" with the HC1 is it was too close in functionality to the A1 (which costs around £1700), at a much lower price. Now the choice will be between the consumer HC1 at £700-800 (street price) and the "pro" A1, still at £1600-1700.

So it depends on what you want and need.

Mark

[fcat]

check out the picture on this thread of the same image taken with the HC1 and the HC3, you can see the focus problems!!

http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=4472

[redsox_mark]

Thanks Fcat, that is interesting.
Not sure if it is an issue with the autofocus or more general issue with the picture quality.

[fcat]

hey Redsox Mark

Need a bit of hep if you can.
Just got my HC1 in the mail, am using a "normal" AMD 3gig, windows XP, 2 gig ddr ram couple of 7200 hard drives.


Have been reading up about using cineform and also gearshift. I captured a 1 minute clip straight from the camera into Vegas, it came in at 200 meg. i did the same through the cineform software and its 420 meg is this correct?


When i have either the cineform or the m2t file on the timeline what should i be starting the new project at(and rendering at) if i just want to output it back in HD to the HC1 ?

cheers for any help you can give

[redsox_mark]

For the file sizes, yes that sounds correct. The m2t is ~12 GB per hour (like DV), so 200 meg is right. The Cineform files are 2 to 3 times larger. And if you render to Cineform in Vegas they are larger than if you capture directly with Connect HD (they will be more like the 3 times larger, rather than ~2 times if you capture with Cineform).

In terms of the project properties, you want those to be set to HDV 1080-50i (1440x1080, 25.000 fps). To render for output to the HC1 you need to render to mpeg2, choosing the template “HDV 1080-50i”. This will render out to a m2t file, which you can then print to tape.

Mark

[fcat]

Excellent thanks Mark, i wasnt sure on the file sizes.

Have you used or do you use gearshift? Im just in the process of trying it but cant seam to understand how to do it, let me know if you have and ill ask the questions

I also dont see a preview on the screen when capturing, it captures etc i just dont see a preview, have to look at it on the HC1 LCD, am i missing something in my settings?

If i set my preview window to draftand have the cineform file on the timeline without any mods on the file its playing about 20FPS in the preview. If i set the project settings to 1920 x 1080 im getting a constant 25FPS. Whats the 1920 x 1080 setting for? can i work with this setting if i get a better previe but then render to the 1440 x 1080 ?

appreciate your help

remember if editing in hi def 1080i you gobble up 40gig per hour of hard disc space and whatever conforming is going on in the background doesn`t take much effort to use 100+gig

feel edit standard def then conform in hi def when you are a happy bunny

[redsox_mark]

Yes, I use Gearshift. I've used it in DV proxy mode, and also with Cineform. I can try and answer your questions.

I'm not able to check now if the HDV capture in Vegas has an option to preview or not.. the DV capture does, though I normally have it turned off.. so I can't remember if I turned off the HDV one (it is a different capture app), or if there is no option.

Interesting about the 1920 x 1080 setting. That is for umcompressed HD (using square pixels). I've not used that, intersting that it previews better. I'm not sure if there is any side effect of having the properties set that way... any generated media you add will be 1920 x1080, square pixel... it should render to 1440 x1080 non-square OK I think.

Mark

[fcat]

cheers again Mark (and grand todger), i think i need to mess about with gearshift for a while and see how i get on before asking about it, ill be back! im not sure if using gearshift or cineform will be better for me.

re having no preview, ive just been reading the Vegas forum and it seams like its 50 50 as to some get a preview and some dont, no ones seams to know what the problem is when there isnt one, its no big deal though.

Is there any advantage to say keeping my captured clips to 30 minute segments or is it just the same if i do say a full 1 hou 30 minute ?

i also have a 3 cam edit to do tht was recorded on 2 Hc1's and a mini DV camera, i would like to output the final edit back to the HC1 in HD whats the best way of incorperating the dv footage in there without it looking too dis-similar in quality?

p.s. will i have any problems capturing to external firewire hard drives if im capturing from the firewire on the HC1?

[redsox_mark]

Unless you know you only want the first 30 minutes of a tape, no there is no real advantage of capturing a bit at a time. I generally capture an entire tape.

Vegas is pretty good at dealing with mixed media, so if you have HD and DV on the timeline and render to HD it will handle it. But I'm not sure if there are any tricks to try and make the DV not so noticably different from the HD.

Vegas has the Cineform codec, so you can use Gearshift with Cineform (edit); though if you capture with Cineform Connect HD then Gearshift probably isn't useful. With Gearshift you can capture the m2t, and select just the bits you want (i.e. do a first cut edit), and only convert those bits to Cineform. Or, you can create a DV proxy, edit that (fast editing) and swap back to the m2t to render.

As for capturing to a firewire drive - well that should work, but I've always had problems with dropped frames doing that (even with DV). Others have been successful so I think it is an issue with my PC or firewire card. I do use a firewire drive for editing, but I capture to an internal drive to avoid the dropped frames.

Mark

[fcat]

Thanks again mark, very usefull info

[fcat]

Mark, where and what settings do i choose to render an m2t file to the inbuilt coneform codec in vegas? cant seam to find it

cheers

[redsox_mark]

To render to Cineform, choose avi file type, and template "HDV 1080-50i intermediate". You'll see in the description that this is the CineForm codec.

Or, do it with Gearshift... select under HD media HDV 1080-50i intermediate.

Mark

[fcat]

ch eers

[fcat]

hey mark

Sorry for all the questions, but once ive rendered to the cineform codec and drag the clip onto the timeline what do i set the new project properties as? just the same as i would if i was editing the HD stream as you said before, the HDv 1080 50i ?
cheers

[redsox_mark]

Yes - the project properties should be HDV 1080-50i for HDV... either if editing native m2t or CineForm intermediate.

Mark

[redsox_mark]

Just to answer a question you haven't asked yet...

Vegas is all you need to capture and edit HDV. With just Vegas, you can do any one of the following:

1. Catpure the m2t file and edit the raw m2t file (it works, but can be sluggish to preview, and generally is not recommended, especially if doing things like colour correction).

2. Capture the m2t file, and render out to CineForm in Vegas. Then edit the CineForm file.

3. Capture the m2t file, and render a DV proxy. Edit the DV file. When done, swap out the DV file for the original m2t file.

To this you can optionally add either Connect HD from CineForm ($200) or Gearshift ($50, or $40 with discount code).

What these do for you:

Connect HD: The main advantage of this is that it captures and converts to CineForm in real time (or near real time with some buffering). So if you PC is fast enough to keep up this saves you time (over capturing m2t and then rendering to CineForm). Also these CineForm files are slightly smaller than the Vegas rendered ones (but still more than double the m2t size).

Gearshift: Gearshift has 2 main benefits:

- If you are working with Cineform, you can select from the timeline just the bits you want (i.e. do a first cut edit), and only convert those bits to Cineform.

- If you are working with DV proxies, it can swap the files back and forth for you. If you only have one file the gain is not great as you could manually replace the file, but if you have captured several files than this makes things much easier as it can swap these all at once.

I use the DV proxy method, as my PC isn't up to the Connect HD spec, and use Gearshift to make this easier.

Other things which can help:

- There is a free utility called HDVSplit which splits a m2t file based on when you start/stop the camcorder. This can be useful as the Vegas capture doesn't do this scene detection.

- Some people use a MPEG2 editor like Womble to do a first cut, Womble works well on these HDV files. Then you can take these rough cut files and use any of the options above.

Mark

[fcat]

cheer again, im using the trials on both gearshift and connect neeed to try a 1 minute clip doing it each way i think and see which plays in the preview window the best and which is easier to handle, space isnt a problem and by the looks of it at the moment the cnnect way is better for me, its taking about 15 minutes per hour longer to convert to cineform when capturing on the fly.

thanks

[redsox_mark]

Agree... i your PC is up to the spec, and you don't mind spending the cash, connect is the best way to go.

Mark