Editing MPEG2 footage from DVD camcorder

jomike · 20-02-2006, 8:11 AM

Whenever camcorders that record in MPEG2 (DVD or HDD) are reviewed, one always reads that "MPEG2 is very difficult to edit". This is true if you use an app designed for DV AVI editing. These are my experiences with MPEG2 editing.

When I first started editing my footage from my Sony DCR DVD203, I tried trial versions of a few of the usual NLEs. Out of these I found Adobe Premiere Elements 2 handled MPEG2 the best. If you render the footage, it converts to AVI in the background, and works with that, then renders back to MPEG2 when you save the edited footage (or so I believe). This all takes time and disc space, though, not to mention loss of quality.

Then I discovered dedicated MPEG editors. I tried VideoReDo, TMPGEnc Mpeg edit and Womble Mpeg Video Wizard. Out of these I liked Womble the best for ease of use and layout, and I havn't looked back since.

The best thing about using a mpeg editor is that it is quick. You import the clips straight off the DVD, do your editing and save the edited clips without them being re encoded (or only around transitions and overlaid titles etc.) This takes minutes instead of the hours that Premiere used to take.

The downside to this is that you cannot do the fancier stuff like picture in picture and if you apply filters, Womble does re encode the footage and does it even slower than Premiere.

You now get a version of Womble that does DVD authoring as well, but I prefer to use Nero Vision for this.

So if you are thinking of editing your MPEG2 footage, and just want to do some titles, transitions, narration, soundtrack and credits, it is actually easy and quick. If you do want to do some fancier stuff, you can always do that in eg. Premiere, then import the clip into your Womble project and still save time by not re encoding everything.

With most manufacturers expanding their consumer DVD and HDD camcorder ranges, and cutting back on miniDV, I think we will see more support for MPEG2 editing as demand rises in the future.

Just my 2p worth. Hope this helps someone.

Mike

redsox_mark · 20-02-2006, 10:55 AM

Mike,

Interesting points.

As a format. DV is easier/better to edit, as all the information needed is in each frame. It’s not just that most editors were designed for DV. But I agree the landscape is changing. HDV is here, and that is also based on MPEG2 capture. Sanyo has a new HD camera coming which is MPEG4.

I agree with you that for “simple” edits, there are several options (such as Womble) which work well. DV still works best if you are doing things like colour correction, or need multiple renders. You can re-render DV many many times with no impact in quality; not the same for mpeg2.

I came from DV editing, and am now working with HDV (MPEG2). With HDV, there are 2 main approaches, and different editors taking different routes. One route is to have the editors handle the native MPEG2 better – combine the ability of handling MPEG that Womble has with more editing features. I think Ulead has software that does this, and others are moving this way too. I use Vegas, and while it can edit the native MPEG2, it re-encodes everything – it doesn’t “smart render”. With Vegas, the generally recommended approach is to render to an intermediate form (CineForm), which is “DV like”. As these files are much less compressed (3 times as large or so), and claim a clever codec, they can do this without any loss in quality. You now have an easier to edit format, which you can do complex edits, and render multiple times if you need without loss. Then at the end you render to your final output format.

Where does this leave us? I agree that MPEG editing is going to get more and more focus, with the increase of HDD and HDV cameras joining the DVD ones. And for simple edits, working with the native MPEG2 is going to be quickest and easiest. What isn’t yet clear, at least in the HDV case, which editing approach will “win” for advanced editing: native, or using an intermediate format.

Bottom line is I agree there will be more and better support for MPEG2. Even DV fans like myself are going to have to accept editing MPEG2 if they want to move to high definition. As to how to do it, native MPEG2 editing is one way, but not necessarily the best way.

Mark

**senu** · 20-02-2006, 1:02 PM

Mike

Stop preaching to the converted

Womble is wonderful!!

The problem with DVD camcorders is that the manufacturers seem to assume the end user has no serious interest in editing the material so solutions like these seem obscure till somebody brings them up as youve done.

The approach of Companies like JVC with thier tapeless Everio line is slightly different. ( Im not sure womble accepts *.mod files as APE2 does). As you know those files are proprietary mpeg2 files.

Regarding Womble: many folk may be perfectly happy with Wombles editing abilities to not miss fancy stuff like ( picture in picture)

My only little point of dissent ( if you like) is that HD/HDV aside, Currently, DV AVI is superior starting material for video footage and I would be wary of not having that if only for archive purposes.
Saying that, I saw the output from the JVC Everio line at the WHFSV/Best of Stuff show and found the footage remarkably clear though I wonder if editing them results in a drop in PQ.

Also ironically, HD/HDV (which is in resolution superior to SD ) is Mpeg .
It is being embraced now ( Camcorders, software and hard ware for editing) and was the buzz word at the recently concluded annual Video Forum in Earls Court.

Even though HD material will get down converted to SD for DVD ( apart from broadcast material) at the current time , It is hoped with the that in future there will be a domestic output format for HDV and people would like to have obtained the best starting material currently possible .

It is also the case that the current HD/HDV editing solutions ideally rely on top spec ( read= expensive) hardware ( dual processors, dual core chips ) which are not in the Womble league.

These comments in no way detract from the merits of your very well thought out write up
Well done

PS: How much do Womble pay you ???

( Promise wont tell a soul)

redsox_mark · 20-02-2006, 1:16 PM

I don't use Womble myself, but it does handle HDV. I've seen people doing rough cuts with Womble, then using something like Vegas for the final touches. I've been thinking trying it out myself for that purpose.

Nothing against DVD camcorders or HDD ones, but I think it is HDV which will force the high feature editing packages to focus more on MPEG2.

Mark

jomike · 20-02-2006, 6:26 PM

Thanks for the encouraging words guys.

I wrote this from the perspective of a home video hobbyist, which is what I am. I am aware that DV AVI is technically superior to MPEG2 for editing, but I wanted to make people aware that editing MPEG2 is possible and indeed quite easy. I am sure that a lot of people with DVD and HDD camcorders would like to try some basic editing on their footage, but are put off by the often repeated view that editing mpeg2 is difficult, and, as senu said, the manufacturers don't seem to want to encourage it either.

One thing I forgot to mention is that, unlike editing HD/HDV MPEG2, you don't need a monster PC. Womble's min specs are a 500 Mhz processor.

I'm not sure how Womble handles .mod files from JVC Everio cams. Maybe someone else can elaborate?

I have recently heard that Ulead Video Studio 9 does smart rendering on MPEG2 files. Am going to try a trial copy and play around.

No, I don't get paid by Womble (unfortunately), I just like to recommend a product that does what it says on the tin. The weird thing is that Womble don't seem to realise what a market there is for their product. On their website there is no mention of camcorders.

Mike

tony @ suffolk · 21-02-2006, 9:33 AM

I was very interested to read this thread because coincidentally I'm just starting to look into the rather complicated, and for me completely unknown, world of digital video.

I've got a number of DVDs which hold the contents of many hours of Hi8 camcorder footage which I'd like to edit in some way. Having read this thread, I decided to download the evaluation copy of Womble. It's certainly an interesting program and looks very professional but as I am at the bottom of a very steep learning curve, it's not apparent to me how I can transfer video from the DVD disc into this program. Sorry if I'm a bit dense here!

Any help and advice would be much appreciated!

Hambone · 21-02-2006, 10:15 AM

Ulead Movie factory 4 and Video Studio 9 are both easy to use
and give great results for mpeg2.
I have been using versions of both programs for a few years now
and would highly recommened them.
I haven't tried any of the other programs mentioned so can't comment
on them.
Some of the early versions are not as good as the new ones so don't
go for the cheap option of buying an early version.
The ulead forum site is good if you get stuck.
Some people love it some hate it.

Hambone
I think you can download a video instruction (save reading)

**senu** · 21-02-2006, 11:57 AM

Hambone,
I also use Mf4 and DVDWS2 and like yourself equally find them both easy to use and give good results, however,I am less enamoured with Video Studio 9 ( couldnt get my simple head round its interface). It is in this GUI dept that I think Pinnacle studio is better. Its rather a shame that the said Pinnacle Studio has a well deserved poor reputation for instability.
I Know DVDWS doesnt reencode dvd compliant mpegs for authoring unless the project size is larger than the media ( ussually 4.7G). Similarly, Womble simply leaves mpeg alone ( does not reencode) any unedited parts.

Mike,
Is smart rendering in vs9 similar to what womble does?. If your trial version of VS9 has that feature disabled PM me I can "loan" you my full copy as it is currenly not in use and uninstalled.

Tony,
You are not being dense we all have to start somewhere

If you "explore" a dvd-video you will find that it has a folder called video_ts. This folder contains various files. There are " ifo" and "bup" files. These are navigational files and thier backups used by players to recognise menu, chapter points ..ect.
The ones you need ( for editing) have a "Vob" ending. VOB stands for video object. These are the video files which are mpeg2. files renamed to conform to DVD-video standard
It is these ( vobs) that you copy onto your Hard drive simply by drag/ drop or copy / paste. This action will not ( ordinarily) work for commercial copy protected DVDs .
In Womble or any suitable editing program , you then use the "import media" action by pointing to the copied vob files wherever they are on your HD. This action should load them for editing. It is important to copy them onto your HD as opposed to trying to "read" them off the DVD.
You can rename them with the mpg/ or mpeg extension , they wont come to any harm
I didnt find the video referred to by Hambone but there is a 116 page instruction manual PDF on the support page of thier website which is less daunting to read than it sounds
HTH
Senu

Hambone · 22-02-2006, 11:30 AM

http://www.ulead.co.uk/learning/vs.htm

**senu** · 22-02-2006, 11:50 AM

Thanx
I thought the video was for Womble.
I will book mark it if I ever go back to VS9.
I must say Ulead are tops when it comes to tutorials as they also support a high school education support program for this product ( aimed at the student and thier teachers ) to get youngsters interested.( I was involved in one such program)

I hasten to add that I use Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6.1 and Avid Liquid 7 as well as Sony Vegas 6 which are no doubt trickier to master than VS9 .
I just think its a fine product whose interface can potentially put a few folk off.
DVD Workshop also has an apparently bland GUI until you get to know it and find out how easy it is to author quite polished looking DVDs with it. Even with intergrated authoring in liquid . I usually finish of my DVDs in DVDWS2 unless its a basic menu.
To Uleads credit , I think Movie Factory4 has a well though out user interface as does Ulead Picture CD/DVD ( all versions).
Maybe VS 10???

jomike · 25-02-2006, 4:16 PM

I have downloaded and played around with Ulead Visual Studio 9 and can confirm that it does indeed do smart rendering when editing mpeg2 files. It is a bit more sluggish than Womble on my system, but you can do more editing wise like adding stills and zooming in on them, picture in picture and probably a few more things that I havn't yet tried.
The trial version seems to be the full version.
So far it hasn't crashed yet, but it does seem to take longer than Womble to save files. Possibly this is because I am adding more things into my clips (because I can), but so far I'm impressed. The picture quality in the re rendered bits does not show any noticeable degradation.
Another alternative for more advanced mpeg2 editing. I don't know what the support for HD/HDV is like.

Mike

**senu** · 25-02-2006, 4:31 PM

Mike....Dont ruin my love affair with Womble! It was you who got us together in the first place: remember?

I guess I could reinstall and give VS9 another chance but actually Liquid 6.1 and AL7 also do not reencode mpeg files ( also edits HD/HDV natively) .
I know they are in a different league to Womble and VS9 but I just happen to have them on the system.

Ill hold off for now to avoid a case of "so many tools too little time to master any".

PS: Ulead released a free HDV plug-in here, sadly it wont work with the trial version and it has a few limitations which you can seen on the site
Senu

jomike · 25-02-2006, 6:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony @ suffolk

I was very interested to read this thread because coincidentally I'm just starting to look into the rather complicated, and for me completely unknown, world of digital video.

I've got a number of DVDs which hold the contents of many hours of Hi8 camcorder footage which I'd like to edit in some way. Having read this thread, I decided to download the evaluation copy of Womble. It's certainly an interesting program and looks very professional but as I am at the bottom of a very steep learning curve, it's not apparent to me how I can transfer video from the DVD disc into this program. Sorry if I'm a bit dense here!

Any help and advice would be much appreciated!

In the left hand Project pane in Womble, in the File tab, with the Video button selected, click on the Open File button. Go to the DVD drive and open the VIDEO_TS folder. Then select the .VOB files to be imported and click on Open. Edit away

Senu, I still like Womble a lot and think it is still the best for lower spec PCs. As I said before, I'd like to show the people who were put off editing their mpeg footage that it is not as difficult as some people say, and show them all the alternatives. I think the Liquid software you mention isn't aimed at casual users and is way out of their price range.

If anyone is aware of any other lower end editing software that handles mpeg files natively (ie. does smart encoding when saving the edited mpeg), do let us know.

**senu** · 25-02-2006, 7:06 PM

Mike,
Keep up the good work.
Last week I was ( playfully) challenged at work for going back in time and editing mpeg when I had access to Dv avi and a "turbocharged" HDV editing System.( purchased especially for me)
I was looking to find use for some (not-so-high spec laptops with HD ( 40-60g max) Using dvd content as starting material.
I then spent 2 hrs ( over a few days) online just looking at standalone mpeg editors and found that there really arent many which combine the affordability, ease of use and low spec PC requirments of Womble.
TMPGenc Mpeg editor seems to be another favourite.
Whilst I maintain that a Dv Avi starting material is ideal ( for SD) , the issue of mpeg as a starting material as in JVC Everio/ DVD seems to always be brushed aside. so people get the impression that once a video file is mpeg, it can no longer be edited.This is clearly not the case

As expressed in a post above, the current increasing availability of affordable HDV camcorders will push the development of competent and affordable mpeg editors
Some Internet Posts suggest Womble ( VCR ) wasnt always as stable as it is now and that too may have put earlier adoptees off