Hi Guys

Im new at this so forgive me if im asking questions you have answeed before. I am goin to buy a Sony HDRHC1 camcorder but was wondering if you could help me out with a few questions before hand. Im thinking about using adobe premier pro v2.0 for editing my footage. The idea is that i want to putput my edited footage to a projector. If i take my footage (1080) onto my pc, and edit it using this software, can i then output it back to my camera via ilink for output through component to the projector. I understand that normal DV camcorders with dv in/out can do this, but i have been told that some programmes/cameras dont allow you to output high def footage back onto the machine?? Also, if i wanted to burn the footage to disk, can anyone recommend the best way to do this, as im not sure what file format etc the footage would be in and therefore what i would not to encode it and play it back.

Cheers

Nick

[redsox_mark]

The HC1 supports this - the i-link is in/out. I don't use Premiere (I use Vegas), Vegas does this, I'd be very surprised if Premiere didn't. But you'd need a Premiere user to confirm.

To play on a PC you can output to a .wmv file.. as long as you have a fast enough PC.

Mark

Correct me if i'm wrong (and I may well be, I've only really experience with my own set-ups) but I don't think that you could finish the edit and do a live projection straight from the timeline via the camcorder. Premiere would have to render the footage back to MPEG2 then dump it to tape through the firewire, this can take hours depending on the length of your project and the spec of your PC.

Hi spec video cards may give you a live preview, possibly even through analogue component, otherwise you would need to playback on the timeline as a preview through the computers vga output and the resolution will only be as good as the projector or video card allows (most commonly 1280x1024 or 1024x768, 1080's are rare)

If you had the time to dump the project to tape then you could certainly play this back thorugh component cables into a projector straight from the cam.

As for discs, the only package which I've used that can do DVD-video HD onto present day discs is Apples DVD Studio Pro 4, although I've not actually tried this so cannot comment on quality etc.

Aaah the fun of new formats

[redsox_mark]

Roy,

You are correct of course... yes I was assuming a render back to mpeg2 HDV, then output this to tape.

[Gordon Briggs]

I too am considering going HDV via the Sony HDR-HC1. I use Edius as my NLE application and like it a lot. I have just been using a friends 3 CCD Sony HDV camera, and found through research that the output from an HDV camera is MPeg 2. I was able to capture using the MPeg capture programme in Edius. I then, after editing, played it out via my DV Storm card, although the finished product was standard DV, the quality was excellent.

I would like to hear more from people who have bought the Sony HRD-HC1 please.

Regards.

Gordon.

[redsox_mark]

Not more people, but the same person saying more……

The HC1 is an excellent camera for the money… though it is not quite as good as the 3 CCD FX1 or Z1, especially in low light. But those cameras cost considerably more, and are much less portable.

You can shoot in HDV, and then you have many options:

- Capture/Edit HDV, output HDV back to tape.
- Capture/Edit, create a HDV file on DVD (using .wmv or other codecs)
- Capture/Edit, down-res to SD-DVD in your editing program, then create a SD-DVD
- Down-res to DV in the camera, capture DV, and work with that.

Downsides are:

- It doesn’t have a normal accessory shoe… just a special Sony AIS one
- It is a bottom loader… which is a pain if using it on a tripod.. though there is a widget to offset it so that you can get to the tapes…

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

Thanks for the valuable info Mark, it's always better to talk to an owner rather that a saleman don't you think.

I followed a link on the forum to a company called DigitalRev, they are selling it for £750(ish). I have e-mailed them to make sure it's not a grey import.

Even at the going rate it's seems like a good buy, did you see the Gadgit Show where they tested it against two other cameras, including a pro HDV cam, and it came out top

to back up mark, I own an HC1 and an FX1, true the HC1 does not compete on a professional level with the FX1, but then it is a lot less, footage from the HC1 intercuts well enough with the FX1, my only mage critique is slightly soft blacks, experienced in DV and HDV mode, probably an artefact of the CMOS sensors. It's not a perfect cam by any stretch, but it's great for the money. Theres nothing else at this band that has it's shelf life.

for mage, read main

[redsox_mark]

DigitalRev imports from Hong Kong... so buying from them implies an import. It is an HC1E that they list, so should be the same model. It would have a global warranty, not a European one, but that shouldn't matter. The prices quoted are without VAT, though they seem to have various schemes where VAT is avoided, or if you are charged it they refund you.

Others have bought there and recommend them... though personally I'm not comfortable with what seems to be VAT avoidance. And if you add the VAT, their prices are not much different than a UK web price. But that's your call, just be aware.

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

Thanks again Mark, I think if I buy one it would be from a UK site. I have been using a friends FX1 for a couple of weeks (he has two!!) and as you would expect, it performs well. I thinks the perception of quality is a very subjective one, and it's always the guy BEHIND the camera that makes the real difference.

My current camera is a Canon XM2 which I have had for 18 months or so, I am very pleased with the quality from that camera, so would the results from the HC1 be a quantum leap?

Also how long will it be before we can shoot/edit/output/play in real HDV?, I use Edius and that will capture HDV via the MPeg capture option, but from then on it's standard DV. I suppose one big advantage is that if you start from a higher level, your finished piece will be of better quality.

Gordon.

I had an XM2 and now have an HC1 and FX1 (and often use the z1) the XM2 has the best colour quality of all these cams, the XM2 has the best audio controls and a couple of nice things like clearscan and frame mode, however the XM2 is 4:3 only and SD obviously.

For SD stuff I think the XM2 probably has a slight edge over the HC1 (the extra zoom, lens quality, manual control -there is no gain/aperture distinction on the HC1, no ND filter) but the HC1 is more future proof, the widescreen is a definite bonus.

At HD playback obviously the HC1 has the advantage.

The XM2 is still a cracker and in many ways better than the HC1, however for how much longer can we argue this?

[redsox_mark]

I was going to say I think Roy had an XM2 and could comment!

As for the question “how long will it be before we can shoot/edit/output/play in real HDV?” :

Now:

- Can edit in HDV. Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere, Ulead, Womble. Various methods, some edit the HDV natively, some use intermediate formats. Some require a fast PC, some methods can be done with any PC which can edit DV.
- Can output edited HDV back to the camera, and watch that (connect the camera to a HD screen, either component or Firewire).
- Can output edited HDV on today’s 4.7 GB DVDs, using .wmv for example, that can be played from a (fast) PC.
- Create HDV MPEG2 files and play them from HDD on a device such as I-O Data Avel Link DVD Player (AVLP2)
- And of course you can create SD DVDs… and yes the higher resolution source generally means higher quality even at SD… though when comparing with a high end cam like the XM2 not necessarily so.

Later:

- Can create a High Definition DVD which can play on a DVD player (needs Blueray writer and player).

So you can do everything except create a High Definition DVD which can be played on a set top player. Blueray recorders and players are coming soon, but it will be awhile before they are affordable. In the meantime you can save your edited HDV footage (as well as the source footage), and re-release your masterpieces later on Blueray when it is available..

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

Mark, you are a mine of information, thank you for your comments.

I have just had a look at the HC-1 at Jessops and I liked what I saw. It has a "quality" feel about it, they have had connected via the component out to a HDMI input on at 37" TFT TV, I didn't see it but they said the picture was awsome.

I would keep my XM2 if I buy the HC-1 as I agree with Roy that it is a great DV camera.

I am about to do a rebuild on my PC, at the moment I have a 3.06 P4 CPU with 1GB of memory on an MSI MB and I use Canopus Edius 3.61 (soon to be version 4)

Gordon

[redsox_mark]

Your PC should be fine (I make do with a 1.6 Ghz Pentium M laptop!).
I don't know Edius, but it has HDV support, so you should be all set.
HDV may require extra HDD space, it depends on what workflow you settle on. (The HDV files are no larger than DV ones, but if you use an intermediate codec those files are 2-4 times larger).

Yes, once you have one in your hands it is hard to resist..

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

Hi Mark,

I have seen it priced at £985.59 + £8 P&P from purelygadgets on the net. I called them and they have it in stock. Just wondered if you or anyone has dealt with them.

I really fancy the HC-1 but I wonder how long before other manufacturers will bring their versions out. Having said that, I have always had a high regard for Sony products.

Dixons are asking £1499 for it, the best they would do is 10% off, BTW Mark you were right about Digitalrev, their price was plus import taxes/vat and carraige which brought it up to Purelygadgets price.

Hey I must be serious when I am only talking about prices and not the camera, I must be sold on the idea!!

Cheers,

Gordon.

PS. Talking about the camera just a little bit, I wondered about extra batteries, I read somewhere that you only could use one type of battery with the HC-1, something to do with the cut-outs at the back of the battery, I would need a bigger battery if poss.

[redsox_mark]

I don't have any personal experience of Purely Gadgets. I nearly ordered my HC-1 from them, but at the time Dixons had a better deal.. .though they stopped the deal shortly after I ordered.

They are a reseller on amazon with reasonable ratings...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/sell...tplaceSeller=1
In fact you can order it via amazon, but it is slightly more.

I did see some posts on another forum which said the model they supply is a HC1EK - an "international" version of the HC1E (a grey import). But it is the same camera. You might want to call them and check. I don't think that getting this verison would be bad... just best to understand.

Mark

[redsox_mark]

Oh, and batteries...

It comes with a NP-FM50. This gives you an hour or so recording.

I recommend the NP-QM71D. This one gives 2 or 3 hours recording, and is a good size - balances the weight of the camera well. You can also still use the viewfinder without lifting it up. With the larger 91 battery, it can get in the way when using the viewfinder.

And yes Sony seems to have implemented a check where if you try and use a non-Sony battery it will reject it and tell you to use a Sony one...

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

Thanks Mark, it's great to get feedback from you, especially when you own the camera which I am interested in.

Thanks for the PM, I have just replied.

Regards,

Gordon.

PS.

The battery you mentioned NP-QM71D, is it a geniune Sony and how much and where? Thanks.

[redsox_mark]

Yes, that is a genuine Sony one.
I bought mine from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...251828-6765250

Mark

HI Everyone,

Im thinking of getting one of this camcorders but i really want one with a handle at the top so i can hold it like a briefcase, ive noticed that there is a slot for something at the top, can anyone tell me wether you can get a handle for it of wether its only for a mic ?

If you can get a handle, does anyone know where i could get one from?

Cheers alot

[redsox_mark]

The shoe on the top is for a mic or light (and only special Sony ones).

I have one of these http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=133276

to mount an ordinary mic and light… it provides a handle, but I don’t think I’d want to carry it around that way.

I carry the camcorder either in a case, or around my neck.

Mark

[senu]

Roy / Mark,

Unrelated but im sure you guys may have an answer to this . If you had £400 max and had to edit HD/HDV what would be your software shortlist?.

Another one: How noticable is any subtle softening effect the HCDR HC1 cmos has on PQ to make one need to save up for an FX1 for work that may have an audience beyond friends and family? ( or is that nitpicking, and its PQ is razor sharp??)
Cheers
Senu

imovieHD (part of Ilifeo6) Final Cut Express HD (if on apple)
Pinnacle Studio Plus 10(avoid just now) or Pinnacle Liquid 7 if on PC, I think Vegas is a bit beyond your budget and I've never really go Prmeiere Pro to handle it reliably.

PQ is good, a tiny bit soft ont he contrast side ofthings (lower lux rating, perhaps also a cmos artefact) iin fairness I only found it problem when live mixing between a FX/Z1 and and HC1, used stand alone it would probably never occur.

[senu]

Thanx,
I actually have Vegas 6 but only as a complimentary gift for trying out( I dont think theyll ask me to return it ) so I dont have to budget it for now!
And I recently got AL7 ( upgrade: just £ 120) and am running it in parralel with 6.1 until I am convinced it is better ( Right now they certainly feel like the same program apart from Avids blue skin
Would u put AL7 and Sony Vegas 6 on equal footing then?
I know all about Studio and its problems. To be fair it works for me but its much slower than 9+ on a system on which even Liquid works nippily

I do not however have an HDV source or material hence the queries and the Sony camcorder is looking very attractive. If not for HD I would simply have gone for the VX2100 or XM2 both of which I rate very highly.

In terms of final PQ as SD on a DVD does any route: Down converting in camera or in software offer any advantage?

[redsox_mark]

Senu,

There is a slight quality advantage to downconvert in Vegas compared to the in-camera.

See here http://www.vasst.com/?v=HDV/hdvportalnew.htm and choose the link "Downconverted to SD comparisons". The first half is downconverted in Vegas, the second half in the camera. The differences are most noticeable when the 3x digital zoom is done.

The other advantage in working in HDV right until the final render is you can then also render back to m2t and have a HDV version of your edited video which you can play on the camera, and later convert to a blue-ray DVD or whatever.

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

Mark,

A question on in camera HDV/DV convertion, If you shoot in HDV, then convert in camera to DV (that would work with my present NLE Edius) would the DV quality be better than if you shot it in DV in the first place? Also when it converts in camera to DV does it then become an AVI file instead of an Mpeg 2 file?

Gordon

PS Found another review for the HC1

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...sony-hc1.shtml

after down conversion the format will be DVPAL AVI.

there is not a straight forward answer to the quality difference.
If you shoot in DV mode then the compression is 8 to 1, if you shoot hdv the compression is 20 to 1, however the compression systems are very different, so its not a straight statistical comparison.

If you shoot HDV then you always have the HDV archive to reuse when the format is delivered more, however if you shoot on DV mode then you will genrally suffer elss dropout and less critical dropout with better quality audio.

Battery life is also approximately halved in hdv mode.

Personally I shoot on fresh tapes all the time, and shoot in HDV mode.

[redsox_mark]

I agree with Roy, and do the same. I did shoot one project in DV recently, it was filming a teacher and student in a 1 to 1 lesson; I thought 4:3 would be best and it needed quick turnaround so I shot DV 4:3. Otherwise I shoot HDV.

I've seen reports that the camera downconversion is better than shooting DV, but haven't done enough DV shooting with it to verify.

Mark

[Gordon Briggs]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Roy and Mark,

Thanks for your thoughts on this, it seems the best thing to do is to "suck it and see". I would be tempted to shoot in HDV, as you say Roy, you can keep it until such times as the format developes more.

As I have mentioned earlier, I edit with Canopus Edius, I have been with this app since it came out, it is very stable and does all I ask of it. I borrowed a friend's FX1 (I am about to rebuild his PC in the hope that he can edit in HDV, probably installing a Canopus NX board which gives real time editing in HDV using Edius Pro 3) and I captured some test footage using the Mpeg Capture in Edius Pro 3, it captured fine, I then tried to edit the shots but found Edius to be rather sluggish, which it isn't with DV AVI files, also I had to render transitions/titles etc, something I don't have to do normally.

This is the reason for my earlier question about camera convertion from HDV to DV. I would then presumably be able to edit as I do now, after all untill Blue Ray or such becomes available, the end product would have to be standard DV/DVD. It does raise another issue however, If I were to shoot/capture/edit/export back into the HC1 would it still be HDV?, or would it, through editing become standard DV? and finaly (stupid question) if I did an in camera convertion from HDV to DV would the original footage on the tape, remain in HDV?

Life gets complicated eh?

Still, I do enjoy the discussion.

Gordon.[/FONT]