[kevink]

Guys and Gals,

I have a TRV 10e , years old and it does a job, but I have tested my filming concept with it and now want to make short films for dosh therefore I think the viewing public deserves a better quality image. I've seen a few Sony DCR-VX2100 DV Camcorder reviews and also the Sony DSR-PDX10P . I'm assuming the 3CCD's on board will produce a much better picture? Also I know that Canon and Panasonic do high end prosumer models. But I have a few questions.

1. If I buy e.g the VX2100 is it a nightmare to use? i.e overly complicated
2. Is the picture quality significantly higher when edited on a package like Pinnacle Studio. Does the rendering process slow down even more because of the better picture quality?
3. Would I be better off (futureproofed) to wait for the Sony HD model the Sony HVR Z1E HDV to come down in price? If I get the HD camcorder does it produce footage that can be handled as normal DV tape input until such time as I'm ready to go HD?

Sorry for the long post, but that's what forums are for right?

[MarkE19]

Hi mate, you could have guessed I'd be looking in on this couldn't you

1. Well I'm no pro user of camcorders so I'll leave the recommendations of the best cam for you to the pros such as Roy Mallard. He'll be along in a while I'm sure.
2. The actual file that is written to a DV tape is the same wheather recorded on a £200 or £2000 DV camcorder and therefore will be handled exactly the same by the editing program. The better camcorder will just get a cleaner picture onto the tape.
3. The Z1 is probably your most future proof option - at the moment. As soon as the price starts to drop a new & better model will be just around the courner. So at what point do you bite the bullet and buy?
The Z1 can record SD onto a DV tape, so can be used now as a great quality SD camcorder. Or you could record as HD now and just capture as SD to the PC until HD-DVD/Blue Ray become available as an output medium. You can then go back and reedit as HD your old footage and get the best of both worlds.

At something like £4k for the Z1 it is a massive investment, so I would strongly suggest getting as much advice as possible, and definately a demo of it. After all, all the above is only my opinion and therefore really should be ignored at all costs

Mark.

[kevink]

Yes you're right I might have known that you would pick this up. I'm guessing that you have a wired laptop strapped to your back.

I know about the 4 grand, thats what's perplexing me. But then I paid £1,600 for the TRV 10e 6 years ago and it proved a good investment as a fun camcorder because a lot of the built in features are only coming into play now. So it looks like Sony futureproof pretty well.
On the flip side, I've seen DCR-VX2100 DV on EBAY selling for a grand and that might be a smart enough move in the short term until the punters have bought the TV's, DVD players and so on to even know about HD, let alone demand it.

BTW another muppet question...the TRV10e is a Mini DV cancorder, some of the higher end machines record are 'DV CAM' is that a different recording format or just different media (tape)? In your note below you refer to the ability for the HD camcorders to output HD (OK I get that bit I think) but also to output as SD onto a DV tape. Is that what I know as a mini DV tape as used in the TRV10e? and is SD just 'S*** definition' as oppose to High Definition?

[kevink]

Carrying on with the incessant questionning and assuming Roy Mallard is coming on, let me quiz you on the audio. I looked at getting a Sennheiser MK300, couldn't get one cut rate and bought a new Rode Videomic. Big mistake. Unfortunately I can hear the whirring of the camera better than the subject 2 metres away.

Whether I spend a couple of thousand on a DCR-VX2100 or not, what should I use for the audio? Can you rig up wireless mic's for use on the DCR-VX2100 or maybe even on my stoneage TRV10e?

I'm guessing again that would be the best quality sound?

Thanks in advance

Thick but willing to learn

(PS you'd never believe that before my mid-life crisis I was earning a few bob in a real job)

[BadAss]

I currently own a VX2100 and have been very happy with its performance.
I also use the Sennheiser MK300 with it. The sound quality is fantastic, a big step u from the built in mic.

When I bought the VX2100 nearly a year ago I paid £1600 brand new and you cant even get it that cheap now. (brand new anyway)

I was tossing with the idea of getting a HDR-FX1 for £2200 to use with the VX2100 but I think I'll leave it untill next year.

If you look at the cheapest prices of these cameras they dont change much from year to year. Once you find a retailer selling at floor level there isn't much more they can knock off once a new model comes out.

[Duncan Craig]

I saw a rumour on a Pro forum the 2100 has been discontinued...

My VX2000 bought at the time of release has served me very well.
It's been all over the world. Just shot a Corporate at the HP sauce factory :-( stinky.

It's got every accessory going, and I shoot TV commercials on it using an anamorphic adaptor. It's also got a Beachtex on it. With radio mics, camera light, Boom Mics etc these extra bits cost more than the camera. It's very well built with the same bloodline and build as the PDs and the VX2100.

However, I have just bought Z1 on tuesday and it's a great bit of kit. I use hired full size DigiBeta and DVCAM cameras a lot, but this could change things. Now waiting for the Sony Wideangle adaptor, then I'll need a full size mattebox (that's another £500)

Whilst it doesn't have the handling of full size cameras, it has advantages over full size cameras namely cost, size and it's HD (or sorts). The X1 is supposed to handle the same as the Z1 but is missing some pro options you may or may not need.

If you cant quite stretch to 4k for a Z1u, go for an FX1e instead, around £2200.

DVCAM is the same tape, it's a different tape pitch (speed) which makes the data transfer onto and from tape a bit more stable.

The audio is also recorded differently on DVCAM, unless you are intending to use XLR mics then the difference isn't really relevant.

Sony is really the way to go, the FX/Z1 have three main control modes:

Auto lock: All you do is point and zoom
Auto/Man: Everything is automatic until you decide what specifics you want to change (of very very many)
Lock: Retians your manual preferences until you unlock and change them.

I shoot HDV, edit HDV and output as SD (though retaining an HDV master and source tapes for future use.

[kevink]

Thanks to all for your comments. This forum is a great source of information!

[MarkE19]

Well that saved me a fair bit of typing

I did say that Roy would be along at some point, and with others with more experience of the 'pro' camcorders I think you have a bit more info than I could offer.

In your note below you refer to the ability for the HD camcorders to output HD (OK I get that bit I think) but also to output as SD onto a DV tape. Is that what I know as a mini DV tape as used in the TRV10e? and is SD just 'S*** definition' as oppose to High Definition?

Yes, miniDv or just plain old DV for short (my fingers are getting shorter by the day as they wear out on the keyboard). And yes again, SD is 'Standard Definition'. Sorry, I forget that not everybody knows all the terms

Can you rig up wireless mic's for use on the DCR-VX2100 or maybe even on my stoneage TRV10e?

I'm guessing again that would be the best quality sound?

Yep! As long as the cam has a mic input you can connect a radio mic to it.
Nope! Radio mics are never 'the best quality', even the very expensive ones as they are too prone to picking up interference. Best quality would be with a good cabled mic, but this is not alway practicle so a radio mic is often a good compromise.

Oh well, time to rest my bleeding fingers - I'm off to get a coffee and do some work, apparently that's what they pay me for

Mark.

[Mr.D]

wait for the new HDV panasonic camera. It actually shoots proper frames whereas the sony is a cludged deinterlace. Gives 16mm a run for its money in the right circumstances.

[Duncan Craig]

It's not HDV I'm afraid.

Also Roy how are you editing HDV in FCP? with a intermediate? Or are you using FCEHD?

Duncan.

[Duncan Craig]

To clarify... the panasonic will be great with P2 being a better format than HDV for certain work, and it'll have a DV deck in it too. But it's not here til the Autumn at least, so it's a really long way off.

I bought the Z1 and it's really impressed me actually, the low light capability is not an issue, when I'd heard it would be. But I'll just edit SD for a while, it's a lot faster to let the camera downconvert and keep HDV for the future when I'm asked for HD version.

[Mr.D]

Here is some info on the panny and comparisons with the sony. Know what one I'll be getting.


http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/

I'm using FCEHD, to be honest apart from the tool bench and timeline enabled keyframes (you can enable keyframes via an effects window) I'm damned if I can find a difference between FCP4 and FCEHD.

I still have an older version of FCP installed (FCP v3) so if I really need to run footage through the tool bench then I can export SD AVI's and do it that way.

The new Panny looks good, but I'm delighted with my FX1, I don't do that much drama these days so the frame mode that everybody raves about on the AVX100 (and the new model) wouldn't really benefit me. I had frame record on the canons I used and the 570 can be switched frame, interline or frame + interline, and never quite warmed to the staggered feel. It was handy if I was doing some cheap telecine conversion, but beyond that...

I hired a z1 for a multi camera shoot i was involved in and can't really see the cost difference over the FX, in fact I found using my beechtek box on the fx1 was far easier than the menu controlled system of the z1 (at least on the pd's there was external switch gear)

Any of these cameras will be a huge jump up from a trv10, even in auto mode you will see a difference.

Key benfits of HDV:

Uses standard miniDV cassettes
Plays back exsisting DV footage
HDV footage can be downconverted for use with your present edit system

You are ensuring present day compatibility with future proofing your investment.

My only real bug bear with the FX & Z's is that they only accept miniDV cassettes, a full size DV version would be nice (akin to the DSR250 / VX9000)
for those longer recording runs.