Super 8 transfer

Cliff · 15-01-2005, 6:10 PM

Can anyone tell me there experiences in transfering film to video?
There always used to be a problem with flicker - a beat between the film and video rates. I tried this years ago with an old VHS camera.

Is this a problem with DV video. Can the shutter speed be adjusted in the new cameras?

15-01-2005, 8:03 PM

Yes it is exactly the same with DV - but most people find that the flicker problem can be eliminated by using a variable speed projector and tweaking the speed up (usually) a little bit - just needs a little experimentation.

Also try and keep the projected image as small ( and therefore as bright ) as possible - keep it dow to about 150mm X 100mm - do not project onto a large screen - and make sure projector lens and camera lens are as close together as possible.

Most DV cameras will allow you to change the shutter speed - sometimes going down to 1/100 th will help.

16-01-2005, 2:41 PM

The flicker comes in at the super 8 end, check your projector is playing back at the same speed that the film was recorded at (usually 18fps, sometimes 25fps, very occassionally 32fps).

What budget do you have for your camcorder?.

The cheapest Panasonics and Canons offer manual shutter control, though sonys offer a slow shutter mode at various levels (a digital effect, but it'd work for s8 transfer).

In theory a camera which offers progressive scan would work even better, but they cost a lot more (see panasonic gs400, canon xm2)

For best results hook a monitor up to you cam and check for flicker as you record.

Cliff · 17-01-2005, 5:52 PM

Thanks for the info..
I am looking at a budget camcorder. The Canon MV750i looks interesting but has an internal mike. Does anyone know if I can just use it as a camera and not record on tape and feed video via firewire straight into my computer. The sound could then be fed in separately.
My films were sound and shot at 18fps and 24fps.

17-01-2005, 7:46 PM

The specification for the MV750i says that it does indeed have analogue in so you *should* be able to convert analogue to digital - the only slight downside is as you say no external microphone jack - but your method would get round that.

The flickering when transferring cine to video is due to the DIFFERENCE in frame rate between the cine film and the video. It can be seen that a cine film is not a continuously moving image but a succession of still images projected onto the screen in quick succession (18 or 24 times per sec) with a black space in between as the shutter goes across the gate.

A video is basically the same - a series of still pictures viewed in quick succession ( 25 per sec PAL - 30ish for NTSC ) so you can see that there will be times when the projector shutter is open at the same time as the picture scan on the video but they will become out of sync due to the different rate so that there will also be times when the projector shutter is closed for part of the scan producing a dark picture.

By using a variable speed projector you can tweak the speed a little - with the 24fps its easy just tweak it up to 25 and they should be in sync and then use your editing programme to slow the video down a bit.

With other cine frame rates it is possible by tweaking the projector speed slightly to find a harmonic of the two frame rates which will give a relatively stable light pattern and eliminate the flicker - it really is a matter of a little experimentation.

17-01-2005, 11:03 PM

the ability to do a live capture would depend on your software.

What do you use?.

You would probably have to play around with the settings, set device control to 'non-controllable' and do a live capture (sometimes called 'movie capture' or 'capture now').

If you have an analogue card on your pc you could capture through that as well.

I think this is a bad idea. By viewing your capture on a pc monitor it will look very different to that of a tv monitor (I presume where the footage will eventually be viewed) especially when you are likely to have problems with scan /shutter synching.

I'd record on to tape, so you at least hava master copy for future use. Tapes are cheap these days.

Cliff · 18-01-2005, 5:13 PM

I can record onto tape but if the camera has no external mike input then I have to record connected up to the computer don't I?
Good point about monitoring to make sure the flicker is not too bad

I have used Pinnacle Studio 7 before using my analogue camera. I would upgrade to 9

18-01-2005, 6:52 PM

is it super 8 sound?.

Ok, you might want to run an output from the projector into a minidisc or tape recorder, or you could run it through an amp and record using the cameras on board mic.

If you have an analogue capture card pinnacle 9 will let you record audio through a line in.

I would consider reducing the shutter speed of the camcorder to 1/25th, as a> you will catch more light and b> the flicker will be less obvious.

Cliff · 21-01-2005, 5:18 PM

yep it is super 8 sound.

And the problem is getting the sound captured(without using the microphone).
Most of it is lip sync so I don't want to run wild recording and all that carry on!
From what I have gathered it should be possible to connect the fire wire up to the computer and using Pinnacle ,capture directly the video. The sound will be captured at the same time, from the computers sound card (from the projector)
Ah !! now thinking about this will Pinnacle allow a digital video input and an analogue sound input and put them together?

I used to use an old DC10+ and that was fine- analogue video and sound. But will the software allow a mix of analogue sound at the same time as DV in?

15-01-2005, 8:03 PM	#2
Brian110507 Guest Posts: n/a	Yes it is exactly the same with DV - but most people find that the flicker problem can be eliminated by using a variable speed projector and tweaking the speed up (usually) a little bit - just needs a little experimentation. Also try and keep the projected image as small ( and therefore as bright ) as possible - keep it dow to about 150mm X 100mm - do not project onto a large screen - and make sure projector lens and camera lens are as close together as possible. Most DV cameras will allow you to change the shutter speed - sometimes going down to 1/100 th will help.
	Quote

16-01-2005, 2:41 PM	#3
Roy Mallard Guest Posts: n/a	The flicker comes in at the super 8 end, check your projector is playing back at the same speed that the film was recorded at (usually 18fps, sometimes 25fps, very occassionally 32fps). What budget do you have for your camcorder?. The cheapest Panasonics and Canons offer manual shutter control, though sonys offer a slow shutter mode at various levels (a digital effect, but it'd work for s8 transfer). In theory a camera which offers progressive scan would work even better, but they cost a lot more (see panasonic gs400, canon xm2) For best results hook a monitor up to you cam and check for flicker as you record.
	Quote

17-01-2005, 7:46 PM	#5
Brian110507 Guest Posts: n/a	The specification for the MV750i says that it does indeed have analogue in so you should be able to convert analogue to digital - the only slight downside is as you say no external microphone jack - but your method would get round that. The flickering when transferring cine to video is due to the DIFFERENCE in frame rate between the cine film and the video. It can be seen that a cine film is not a continuously moving image but a succession of still images projected onto the screen in quick succession (18 or 24 times per sec) with a black space in between as the shutter goes across the gate. A video is basically the same - a series of still pictures viewed in quick succession ( 25 per sec PAL - 30ish for NTSC ) so you can see that there will be times when the projector shutter is open at the same time as the picture scan on the video but they will become out of sync due to the different rate so that there will also be times when the projector shutter is closed for part of the scan producing a dark picture. By using a variable speed projector you can tweak the speed a little - with the 24fps its easy just tweak it up to 25 and they should be in sync and then use your editing programme to slow the video down a bit. With other cine frame rates it is possible by tweaking the projector speed slightly to find a harmonic of the two frame rates which will give a relatively stable light pattern and eliminate the flicker - it really is a matter of a little experimentation.
	Quote

17-01-2005, 11:03 PM	#6
Roy Mallard Guest Posts: n/a	the ability to do a live capture would depend on your software. What do you use?. You would probably have to play around with the settings, set device control to 'non-controllable' and do a live capture (sometimes called 'movie capture' or 'capture now'). If you have an analogue card on your pc you could capture through that as well. I think this is a bad idea. By viewing your capture on a pc monitor it will look very different to that of a tv monitor (I presume where the footage will eventually be viewed) especially when you are likely to have problems with scan /shutter synching. I'd record on to tape, so you at least hava master copy for future use. Tapes are cheap these days.
	Quote

18-01-2005, 6:52 PM	#8
Roy Mallard Guest Posts: n/a	is it super 8 sound?. Ok, you might want to run an output from the projector into a minidisc or tape recorder, or you could run it through an amp and record using the cameras on board mic. If you have an analogue capture card pinnacle 9 will let you record audio through a line in. I would consider reducing the shutter speed of the camcorder to 1/25th, as a> you will catch more light and b> the flicker will be less obvious.
	Quote