[dogtown]

Just wondering if anyone has any experience on this one??

I'm going to be using my SD900 to film some DJ's playing in a club in Brixton.

Now as there is going to be little light I'm going to be on the stage right next to them, there will be 2 monitor speakers next to me also which are going to be VERY loud. Now as the gig is not recorded (audio) I'm going to have to use the sound that te camera pics up. Is there anything I can do to the onboard mic as I dont want the sound to be all distorted??

Thanks.

[Prometheus Xex]

Not very likely. This has always been a thorn in my side and the only way to fix it is plug in an external mic. It worked for me like day and night. Check out my YouTube channel and hear how well it works. FYI, I just bought a Sony NEX-VG20 and even though I can bring the mic levels down, it horribly distorts like my previous camcorder. So now I'll be going out to buy an external mic to fix that too.

[doug_1986]

Obviously It's always going to be better if you can record it properly... Double double check to see if there's no way you can just plug a recorder (mp3, wav, minidisc, cd, whatever!) into one of the mixers outputs - it will save you a lot of headache. (and yes, I do have experience of this!)

[rogs]

I guess that to some extent it depends on what you are trying to achieve?

If you want to 'capture' the live mood of the club itself, then the use of an external mic - and possibly an external audio recorder, will be much better than using camcorder internal mics. The fairly crude preamps, and AGC (automatic gain control) of most camcorders are simply not up to the job, even if the mics themselves are OK.

But even with decent mics, the 'live' sound, at that high volume, will still still rubbish, compared to a direct 'mixer' feed into an external recorder.

The bass 'boom', introduced by the room acoustics, just seems to make it sound so amateur?

All IMHO of course --it could be that the 'live' bass boom is part of what you are trying to recreate, rather than a high quality audio recording?....

But it's still way better than anything a camcorder mic is going to record

Maybe the DJs don't like you recording their set, directly from the mixer?...I don't know if these guys can get a bit 'precious' about the results of their knob twiddling..

(Hmmm.... that doesn't read quite right )

[dogtown]

Haha thanks guys, nope I cannot get a live recording via a mixer so an external mix it is. One question tho...

Will I be able to see what levels the sounds coming in at?? Almost like a peak meter??

[Prometheus Xex]

Originally Posted by rogs

I guess that to some extent it depends on what you are trying to achieve?

If you want to 'capture' the live mood of the club itself, then the use of an external mic - and possibly an external audio recorder, will be much better than using camcorder internal mics. The fairly crude preamps, and AGC (automatic gain control) of most camcorders are simply not up to the job, even if the mics themselves are OK.

But even with decent mics, the 'live' sound, at that high volume, will still still rubbish, compared to a direct 'mixer' feed into an external recorder.

The bass 'boom', introduced by the room acoustics, just seems to make it sound so amateur?

All IMHO of course --it could be that the 'live' bass boom is part of what you are trying to recreate, rather than a high quality audio recording?....

But it's still way better than anything a camcorder mic is going to record

Maybe the DJs don't like you recording their set, directly from the mixer?...I don't know if these guys can get a bit 'precious' about the results of their knob twiddling..

(Hmmm.... that doesn't read quite right )

I've been doing this for quite a while now and the one thing I know is if the DJ is big enough (as opposed to being local) they will NEVER allow you to plug directly into their mixer. As for using an external recorder... too much of a pain in the ass for syncing the audio. The best answer from my experience is get a pretty decent external mic. The sound (with a bit of tweaking during editing) can come out really good, and you still have the "live" sound. I get comments on the quality of sound from my videos all the time, so clearly I'm doing something right.

Originally Posted by dogtown

Haha thanks guys, nope I cannot get a live recording via a mixer so an external mix it is. One question tho...

Will I be able to see what levels the sounds coming in at?? Almost like a peak meter??

Not if you plug in an external mic.

Here's a tip: If you know someone with a KILLER car audio system, you can test you setup in there with the tunes cranked. It worked for me with my buddy. His system's bass was kickass enough that I could simulate being next to the monitor speakers in a club. I tried a before (to make sure I was getting the same distortion), and an after to hear if it fixes everything. It did.

[doug_1986]

Sounds like some pretty solid advice!

One thing though, sync'ing external audio recorders really doesn't have to be painful. If you set things up properly with 'time of day' (external re-gen) timecode, or even just sync claps, it's really not so bad.

Even have programmes like pluraleyes to do it for you now!

[rogs]

Originally Posted by Prometheus Xex

I've been doing this for quite a while now and the one thing I know is if the DJ is big enough (as opposed to being local) they will NEVER allow you to plug directly into their mixer. As for using an external recorder... too much of a pain in the ass for syncing the audio. .

So no direct recording..... external mic it is then! (Although I've not found syncing the audio with an external recorder too difficult... but I've only done it with speech recordings...)

As you can tell, I don't know much about this night club recording thing, so I'm probably missing the point, on the quality of the audio.

You seem to be getting a pretty good result from an external mic, bearing in mind the obvious limitations.

And if the 'ambient' audio is a part of the whole concept, then I am missing the point!

On your videos, I preferred the audio that you have with your 'Clouds with above ...' video, so if that was recorded with your external mic, that is very impressive.....

[Chelters]

The SD900 should have manual audio controls (my 700 does).
Put it in manual mode and go into the menu -> Record setup -> Mic level -> set.
Now make sure the AGC is not highlighted (if it is, touch it) now use the left arrow to turn the mic down.
You can go to -30db, I reckon your internal mics will be OK. That should be enough but as was noted earlier in the thread try it out a mates car with a good sound system, it's got to be worth a try before lashing out on another mic.

[Prometheus Xex]

Originally Posted by rogs

So no direct recording..... external mic it is then! (Although I've not found syncing the audio with an external recorder too difficult... but I've only done it with speech recordings...)

As you can tell, I don't know much about this night club recording thing, so I'm probably missing the point, on the quality of the audio.

You seem to be getting a pretty good result from an external mic, bearing in mind the obvious limitations.

And if the 'ambient' audio is a part of the whole concept, then I am missing the point!

On your videos, I preferred the audio that you have with your 'Clouds with above ...' video, so if that was recorded with your external mic, that is very impressive.....

No, that was an overlaid track for obvious reasons. As for my club videos, I insist on only recording what everyone else hears. It give you the feeling you were there. Also, on the point of syncing with an external recorder, why bother with that and have extra to do in a club and during editing? Maybe the mic may not be the perfect way, but it does make things easier. I like to party when I'm in the club, so the more complicated things get when I'm recording, the less fun I'll have.

[Prometheus Xex]

Originally Posted by Chelters

The SD900 should have manual audio controls (my 700 does).
Put it in manual mode and go into the menu -> Record setup -> Mic level -> set.
Now make sure the AGC is not highlighted (if it is, touch it) now use the left arrow to turn the mic down.
You can go to -30db, I reckon your internal mics will be OK. That should be enough but as was noted earlier in the thread try it out a mates car with a good sound system, it's got to be worth a try before lashing out on another mic.

In my case my buddies' audio system kicked the crap out of my setup, but when I put the external mic on... a miracle... lol! I just bought and used this weekend at an outdoor event in Toronto (Veld Music Festival) a Sony NEX VG20. I turned the mic down till it was almost off, but it still distorted like ****!

[12harry]

Loud music is likely to be tricky - can dogtown go to the venue beforehand and check it out?

I suspect it will be so loud the internal mics will be compromised (being Electrets), so an external m/c mic is the only solution IMHO. An external recorder will "probably" have better controls and a Level-meter that can be studied. However a pro-trick is to have each channel at different Gains - something that isn't always available. (This gives you a clean signal if the other channel is overloaded (but still means the mic has to be OK, hence the suggestion of m/c. which has more SPL headroom, whichever device records audio.)

Something you may wish you'd brought is a decent pair of headphones - not just for the recording-level, but to protect your ears. That it makes you look "pro" is a bonus, but you only get one set of ears and should protect them against excessive SPL's. The best ones have large comfy muffs and "closed-back" - something over £30 should be a good starting point.


Did I mention low light - it may be smokey/fog so all you'll get is fuzzy - worth taking a portable LED light to capture Band Leader, DJ and Punters applauding/having good time, etc. . Good Luck!

Something to think on - but do let us know how the night went...

[rogs]

Originally Posted by Prometheus Xex

I like to party when I'm in the club, so the more complicated things get when I'm recording, the less fun I'll have.

Makes sense!

[Prometheus Xex]

Originally Posted by 12harry

Loud music is likely to be tricky - can dogtown go to the venue beforehand and check it out?

An external recorder will "probably" have better controls and a Level-meter that can be studied. However a pro-trick is to have each channel at different Gains - something that isn't always available. (This gives you a clean signal if the other channel is overloaded (but still means the mic has to be OK, hence the suggestion of m/c. which has more SPL headroom, whichever device records ... ...

I tried that too. I went out and spent over 200 on an external recorder... the Zoom H2. It still gave me the same problems no matter what level the recordings were set at. Remember, its the bass from the speakers that screws everything up... not volume. If it was just volume, then there wouldn't be any issues. That stupid bass creates so much havoc due to sound compressions on a mic. The internals of camcorders are made so super sensitive, and I figure the H2 is also built the same way. Some external mics are built to withstand that problem, while others are not. You just can't buy any external mic. You have to experiment. I had to.

[dogtown]

Thanks for all the advise guys, I've got a good home stereo so I'll give the cam a good blast in front of that later. As for manual mic controls in the camera itself I can't say I've ever looked so will check it out. If not then I think an external mic with a sensitivity adjust and a pair of headphones would be the way to go

[12harry]

Right next to the speakers (when Neighbours are Out) should do the trick.... once overloaded there is no recovery possible, you have lost that data and it sounds aweful.
Not sure about #14 - perhaps a word on what mics were Good/Bad....?
A decent recorder will record all frequencies equally, subject to limitation of the weakest link (the mic.) - Most Mfr will quote a response like 30Hz - 18kHz +-3dB. So I fail to understand the suggestion that only the Bass is causing problems. Maybe this is believed because many systems have a Bass-cut feature? But this is not for "Loud Recordings" - rather it is to attempt to guard against Wind noise which translates to muffled LF.

The thing to do is get a moving-coil mic...pref one with the same jack that the recording device uses...Those adaptors can cause damage, due to the leverage - and in the dark....Expect to pay somethiing like £20 minimum and as much as you can afford. Don't be tempted to buy an expensive Electret (one that needs a battery is the clue).

I presumed the 900 has Manual level-controls, but check the User Guide! . . .
Good luck.

[dogtown]

Right the time is drawing close now!! After playing with the controls I can set the mic to -30db or plus 6, also can someone tell me what the 'AGC' is please?? I can also set the mic to Focus, Surround or Stereo. I can have a bit of a play before hand but only when other DJ's are on so I'm ready for the one I **** to record. I need to get it set the best I can by plugging headphones into the cam before hand.

Been looking at a few external mic's, are the £30/40 ones much cop??

Oh yeah, did I mention the sound system in the club is between 15 and 20k... Im going to be near the monitor speaker whick are going to be LOUD!

[Chelters]

AGC = Automatic Gain Control.
Basically if you're filming a quiet scene AGC will boost the audio to what it thinks is an acceptable level and drop the level if a loud noise suddenly happens. That's why there was much fuss about the fan noise on the Panny's in quiet situations, AGC was boosting the sound of the fan as well as the scene.

[dogtown]

Ahh well I don't think the noise of the fan will be a problem in this case anyway, so for filming next to very loud music... On or off???

[12harry]

I think Chelters was giving additional info.
If yoiu are filming "loud Music" then the AGC will struggle to keep it lower, but as I've written before, you cannot use electrets when it's really loud. Most decent moving-coil mics will be better, but expect to pay maybe £50+ try a Guitar shop - they will understand the issues (and sell you a suitable mic and low-noise lead - just don't accept an "adaptor" between the camcorder and mic-lead - they put enormous strain on the camcorder - and that will end in tears.

Loud Sounds:
+Similarly, those Zoom solid-state recorder* will also suffer when using their internal electret mics - but will allow a m/c mic to be plugged-in.

"Normal recording levels" do not lead to these problems.... and that's what the available kit is designed to record.


* Portable Recorder
EDIT
I've recorded loud sounds (but not a night-club) and the cure was an external m/c mic plugged into my SDHC recorder.... wearing headphones helped also - to protect my hearing from the noise-level!!!
+ A while back I got a CD from a mic-company (Care, these are typically £500 each!) and they compared so-called industry-standard mics against their own - the difference was quite surprising. However, for me this is a Hobby-sport and Not Earning.... so I don't think the difference is sufficient - rather I struggle to make good music which is synthed - and no microphones involved.

[rogs]

Originally Posted by dogtown

so for filming next to very loud music... On or off???

Off

Loud bass and AGC can be used to great effect - the idea of that kind of modulation is the basis of Dubstep -- but it won't work with simple camcorder AGC --it'll just distort horribly!

So -- gain settings as low as possible -low sense mics if possible (like the dynamics that harry is talking about) and no AGC.

You can use certain electrets -listen to the you tube link from here Recording levels on Sony NEX-VG20. That Sony mic sounds fine, and that's an electret - but it's not cheap!

(Already linked to below! -- cross posted --sorry about that!)

[Prometheus Xex]

My mic test I posted on a different thread.

Mic Sound Test - YouTube

[dogtown]

Well it's all done now and the results were a lot better than I was expecting!! I had the mic set as low as it would so and set to stereo.

Now, I'm using power director 10 to edit my footage, 1hours worth filmed in 1920 1080 50p is a pretty big file!! Does anyone know the best settings to compress it to so it will be on you tube in 1080?? I've rendered a copy to save to my laptop but the file size is 11gb, to upload that to you tube would take 72 hours!! I'm currently uploading a copy to you tube I rendered in mp4 best format, that brought the file size down to 5gb but will still take 19 hours!

[12harry]

dogtown - thanks for the Update - seems that your settings were OK in this instance - worth remembering this for the "next-time", eh?

I don't know yr software, but expect it will have a YT feature and that will create the necessary compression.
it should be quite modest file-size . . . . Your upload durations are far too long and may end up in the bin as YT would be overloaded by such file-sizes. Er, IMHO.


FWIW in Vegas studio, the audio waveform can be viewed, this will make it clear if there is any clipping. I understand that Pro camcorders can inject a test-tone so the recording can be Spot-calibrated.

[dogtown]

Hi Harry, I've verified my you tube acc so max uploads per time ate 20 gig. I rendered the footage in mp4 and this brought the file size down to 5gb, was a hefty upload at 19hours tho..

As for the camera yes great results, I was stood right by the monitor speakers and they were so loud my ears were still ringing the next day but the audio from the camera came out really well, I had the mic set to the lowest, I also think I could of notched it up one tbh. As for the other settings I just had it on auto, footage of the lasers and where the dj was standing came out well considering there was little light, tho it did seem a little grainy then pointing towards the crowd. What settings would you suggest for a low lit club?? Footage can be viewed on you tube 'NEW KRU @ CLUB LABYRNTH'

Now don't slate the camera work I was very drunk and didn't have my tripod ha. The whole hour had to be filmed in one shot to capture all the audio

[12harry]

Not watch the clips (yet) - bandwidth down presently. However, it may be that you are experiencing the low-ligh limitations of the 3-CMOS Panas. Whilst this is excellent in sunlight (for 98% of shots), it may be the single (large-sensor) models are better suited. The snag is the availability of Mic-in and headphones.

Ringing until the next day? Perhaps that's being a tad Artistic, but if you think about it it is your ear-nerves being pounded that causes this effect - and damage is almost certain the result - it may not matter if you're young enough, but keep that up every-so-often and you'll knock-up a reduction in sensitivity as the body attemps to protect itself.
Think now - why didn't you wear those £30 closed-back headphones I suggested.
I used mine on the Nov 5 fireworks display (for the 15-min Bangs) . . . . it certainly makes you look Pro and you can adjust what you hear - it doesn't stop the outside noise - but it does cut it quite a lot. I tried some genuine BBC headphones and they are marginally better (at attenuation) . . . . but at well over £100 they are a luxury, for me.
Mine are AKG 44 - and I paid under £30, new. The bonus was the jack is 3.5mm - so minimal strain on my SDHC recorder skt. You don't get replacement ears. . . as you know.

Low-light - always use the wide-end of the zoom . . . this is where the max light reaches the sensors.

Sounds like your "do" was a success, well-done.

[Turbo Dragon]

Originally Posted by 12harry

I tried some genuine BBC headphones and they are marginally better (at attenuation) . . . . but at well over £100 they are a luxury, for me.
.

Out of curiosity what headphones were they? A far as i knew bbc (like everywhere else) has been using industry standard Beyers for the last 20odd years? Were they BBC branded ones? Been a few years since i was in a BBC studio.....

[12harry]

Not "branded" but they had a BBC sticker, it may have been faked but I really don't think so - the guy was pretty genuine . . . seems those BBC-headphones can be repaired in parts, so you only replace the bit that's broke. Maybe they are the model you suggest, sorry "dunno" but it doesn't alter the fact that the additional attenuation was somewhat marginal IMHO and not (for me) worth paying another £100 for.
However, if I was working in loud situations regularly I ask my employer to provide them, they were more-comfortable as a bonus, but that is "subjective".

[doug_1986]

The BBC (and most / all audio recordists I know) use Sennheiser HD-25's (Sennheiser UK - HD 25-1 II). I use a pair at work (BBC) and have had a fair few parts replaced over the years!

[rogs]

Another recommendation for the Sennheiser HD25 here. Superb.
Do not confuse them with the 'SP' version, which has a similar model number. They're not as good.
As doug_1986 says, virtually universal among pros in the UK.
In the US, the Sony model 7506 is also very popular, but not quite so much here in the UK.