[awakener]

Thanks! I have tried the trial of Premiere Elements 10 but there I can't set the output to 1080p/50 so it looks like this is not supported. Will try Vergas as mentioned above.

[TomahawkMC]

Hi All,
I want to get a bag for my TM900 and I just wondered if you folks have any suggestions. All in need room for is the camera with the longer VBN-260 attached and that's about it. I have a backpack that I use to carry battery chargers, cables and other bits like that. Thanks much!
-Gavin

[Luc32]

Guys, it seems that my budget cannot afford buying a TM900 from the local stores, so I have to ask a friend to bring it from the states. Much cheaper.

Here's my concern: the TM900 model they sell there does NTSC 60p footage, instead of the PAL 50p we have here.

Will that represent a problem, considering I will use the camera to record weddings, and since not many people have Bluray players here, I will have to convert the footage to the standard SD DVD-video format, readable by your average DVD player, with menus and what-not.

Please please please tell me that 60p won't be a big issue!

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by Luc32

Guys, it seems that my budget cannot afford buying a TM900 from the local stores, so I have to ask a friend to bring it from the states. Much cheaper.

Here's my concern: the TM900 model they sell there does NTSC 60p footage, instead of the PAL 50p we have here.

Will that represent a problem, considering I will use the camera to record weddings, and since not many people have Bluray players here, I will have to convert the footage to the standard SD DVD-video format, readable by your average DVD player, with menus and what-not.

Please please please tell me that 60p won't be a big issue!

It will likely be a problem if converting to DVD and wanting to ensure it works for everyone. Also on DVD it will be lower resolution than PAL which your customers may notice. We always found the drop in resolution on 60i DVDs quite noticable compared to 50i.

Regards

Phil

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by Luc32

Guys, it seems that my budget cannot afford buying a TM900 from the local stores, so I have to ask a friend to bring it from the states. Much cheaper.

Here's my concern: the TM900 model they sell there does NTSC 60p footage, instead of the PAL 50p we have here.

Will that represent a problem, considering I will use the camera to record weddings, and since not many people have Bluray players here, I will have to convert the footage to the standard SD DVD-video format, readable by your average DVD player, with menus and what-not.

Please please please tell me that 60p won't be a big issue!

It may be an issue for two reasons.

Firstly if you don't want to produce DVDs with very poor quality you will need to burn DVDs in 720 x 480 at 29.97fps (The 60fps is actually twice 29.97 fps). The same as DVD's mastered for ntsc countries.

A few clients might not be able to play these if they have very old DVD players.

A Camcorder from a European source using 50fps (or 1080i at 25fps) will make DVD's in the standard European format 720 x 576 at 25fps.

No problem with AVCHD/Blu-ray HD copys though.

[Kevo]

Originally Posted by petet66

Burnt to a DVD as AVCHD footage and played back on my 42" Panansonic plasma tv the difference was less obvious but there was still a softness and shimmer to the 50i footgae that wasn't present in the 50p footage.

Don't get me wrong both were excellent and a huge jump from SD but 50p is definitely worth it!

What did you use to burn 1080 50p to an AVCHD DVD?

I've only done a few test shots with 1080 50p on my TM900 and so far it's just not worth the hassle

Yes it looks nice and smooth when played back via the camera on my 46" plasma TV but trying to play it back via anything else just seem nigh on impossible!
Tried PS3, Panasonic BD player and a new Popcorn Hour A-300 NMT and at best I get a stuttering video and stuttering audio, worse on a pan or tilt shot.

I'll also have to upgrade my software of choice, Edius 2.5 Neo Booster to 3.0 and even then on an i7 CPU will be pushing it. It's all well playing around with a few minute clips stiched together, but a fully edited 1 hour project with all the usual transitions? I shudder to think what the processing and file space requirements will be like. And all the downconverting to more 'user friendly ' formats will just add to an already long winded workflow!

No thanks, i'll stick to 50i until 50p becomes 'standard' and user friendly. No need to 'turn it up to 11' yet

[serafko]

Originally Posted by Kevo

What did you use to burn 1080 50p to an AVCHD DVD?

I've only done a few test shots with 1080 50p on my TM900 and so far it's just not worth the hassle

Yes it looks nice and smooth when played back via the camera on my 46" plasma TV but trying to play it back via anything else just seem nigh on impossible!
Tried PS3, Panasonic BD player and a new Popcorn Hour A-300 NMT and at best I get a stuttering video and stuttering audio, worse on a pan or tilt shot.

I'll also have to upgrade my software of choice, Edius 2.5 Neo Booster to 3.0 and even then on an i7 CPU will be pushing it. It's all well playing around with a few minute clips stiched together, but a fully edited 1 hour project with all the usual transitions? I shudder to think what the processing and file space requirements will be like. And all the downconverting to more 'user friendly ' formats will just add to an already long winded workflow!

No thanks, i'll stick to 50i until 50p becomes 'standard' and user friendly. No need to 'turn it up to 11' yet

I am using Xtreamer for playback 1080 50p, and there is no problems at all. Video and audio is smooth.

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

It may be an issue for two reasons.

Firstly if you don't want to produce DVDs with very poor quality you will need to burn DVDs in 720 x 480 at 29.97fps (The 60fps is actually twice 29.97 fps). The same as DVD's mastered for ntsc countries.

A few clients might not be able to play these if they have very old DVD players.

A Camcorder from a European source using 50fps (or 1080i at 25fps) will make DVD's in the standard European format 720 x 576 at 25fps.

No problem with AVCHD/Blu-ray HD copys though.

You seem to quote the European Broadcasting notation but leave off the i or the p. 29.97p is different to 29.97i.

The majority of us do not use the European notation, it is 60p, 60i or 30p (rounded for ease). We don't tend to use the European broadcasting notation because most specifications and HDMI TV settings don't use it and so we are used to seeing 1080/50i inputs etc, plus the European standard doesn't spell out the temporal differences between the i and p as well so isn't in favour everywhere. Your HD TV has a 1080/50i HDMI input rather than a 1080i/25 input.

So in terms we commonly used.

1080/60p options to DVD are:

720x480 at 60i (interlacing 60p to 60i to keep the smooth video type motion)

or

720x480 at 30p (dropping every other frame to keep it progressive but motion isn't as smooth.)

1080/50p options to DVD follow the same as above with 720x576 at 50i or 720x576 at 25p

Either way the 60i/30p footage is going to be a problem in the UK on SD, plus is a lower resolution.

Regards

Phil

[grahamlthompson]

Recommended notation is now to use the frame rate after i or p as it removes any possible confusion. The i always indicates the field rate will be double the frame rate. hence 1080i30 will actually be 1080 lines at 29.97 frames/second (59.94 fields/second) - a proper interlaced display will double the transmitted frame rate.. The number of columns may vary. (1440 or 1920). Similary 576i25 will be 25fps (50 fields) in various resolutions (544 x 576, 704 x 576 or 720 x 576).

For a 720 x 576 DVD either 576i25 or 576p25 may be used. So there is nothing wrong with just saying 720 x 576.

Similary for a 720 x 480 DVD either 480i30 or 480p30 can be used. (or just 720 x 480)

Out of interest I ripped a copy of a Star Wars DVD to see what the video content was.

Result

General
Complete name : E:\StarWars\MainMovie\STAR_WARS\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1. VOB
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 1 024 MiB
Duration : 18mn 30s
Overall bit rate : 7 736 Kbps
Writing library : encoded by TMPGEnc (ver. 2.524.63.181)

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 18mn 30s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 6 981 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : Component
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.673
Stream size : 924 MiB (90%)
Writing library : TMPGEnc 2.524.63.181

Audio
ID : 128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 18mn 30s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -73ms
Stream size : 59.3 MiB (6%)

Menu
Format : DVD-Video

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

Recommended notation is now to use the frame rate after i or p as it removes any possible confusion.

The recommendation of the EBU I suppose. The trouble is you don't seem to use the i or the p, and virtually everyone uses the more common 50i/60i notation for interlaced. In many respects 50i/60i makes more sense as 50i denotes 50 interlaced fields a second, 25p indicates 25 progressive frames per second, it is as you read it and is far more descriptive and is the reason why the vast majority of manufacturers and people stick to 50i/60i. The EBU notation causes confusion simply because the general public don't use it and are not exposed to it.

Also 50p/50i/25p when written denotes better the relationships between the formats as it makes the temporal resolution clear:

1080/50p 50 progressive frames, smooth motion
1080/50i 50 interlaced fields, same smooth motion as 1080/50p but interlaced
1080/25p 25 progressive frames, less smooth motion

When written above we can clearly see that 1080/50p and 1080/50i are quite closely related and have the same temporal information, both are "video" sample rates. This similarity is much less obvious when written as

1080p/50
1080i/25
1080p/25

Now it looks like 1080/50i and 1080/25p are closely related, but they are as different as chalk and cheese to watch, one is 50Hz the other 25Hz for a start.

....also show me a TV which has a 1080i/25 input

Regards

Phil

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by PhilipL

Now it looks like 1080/50i and 1080/25p are closely related, but they are as different as chalk and cheese to watch, one is 50Hz the other 25Hz for a start.

Freeview-HD switches seamlessly between the two. The only difference is the gop for one is interlaced the other progressive. And where does 1080p24 figure in your argument (due to the bitrate on BD it looks great).

[anim8r]

We are looking at getting the TM900 to replace our GL2 and XL1s in our studio. Most of what we do is on greenscreen. I have some questions about the camera, and hope someone can help answer these.

Does the camera have onscreen audio meters?

Saw a youtube video were a guy was complaining about some clicking noise that he determined was the ring mode button on the front. Any one experience that?

I've heard about the fan noise, but we always use an external lavalier mic so that shouldn't be an issue.

Read on Camcorderinfo.com that they had some focus issues. It could mostly be corrected with manual focus, but even then it was only sharp on one side of the image. Anyone have any problems with that?

Anyone shooting greenscreen with this camera? Any thoughts?

Hope I'm not repeating stuff from the rest of this thread, I haven't read all the way through yet, but they are hounding us for answers at work.

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

Freeview-HD switches seamlessly between the two. The only difference is the gop for one is interlaced the other progressive. And where does 1080p24 figure in your argument (due to the bitrate on BD it looks great).

I'm not sure what your point is or why you are now talking about GOPs in H264 encoding used on Freeview?

From the wiki article, "Interlaced video is a technique of doubling the perceived frame rate introduced with the composite video signal used with analog television without consuming extra bandwidth. Since the interlaced signal contains the two fields of a video frame shot at two different times, it enhances motion perception to the viewer and reduces flicker by taking advantage of the persistence of vision effect. This results in an effective doubling of time resolution (also called temporal resolution) as compared with non-interlaced footage (for frame rates equal to field rates)."

25p and 50i are different beasts, they are not the same. Yes Freeview might switch to 25p encoding when the footage has been carefully shot that way and the reduced temporal resolution isn't going to be noticeable. One example is credits, often a TV drama is shot in 25p, but the vertically scrolling credits at the end see the footage switch to 50i to avoid a juddery nauseating mess or having to run the credits very slowly. Have you ever noticed on the end of a 24p film how slow the credits roll, there is a reason for that. Films are switching to faster frame rates now.

Originally Posted by anim8r

Does the camera have onscreen audio meters?

Yes.

Saw a youtube video were a guy was complaining about some clicking noise that he determined was the ring mode button on the front. Any one experience that?

Some have complained about the mode switch, if you touch this it rattles and is picked up by the camera, although personally while mine is lose and rattles if touched, I don't seem to touch it when recording.

I've heard about the fan noise, but we always use an external lavalier mic so that shouldn't be an issue.

No problem if using an external mic away from the camcorder.

Regards

Phil

[grahamlthompson]

I give up.

The Star Wars DVD I chose to decrypt is known for its picture quality. So much so clips for it are used on a THX demo disc I have.

When viewed over a component connection (ie in 576p) the picture quality is superb. Viewed over RGB (576i) it's pretty good too. There are certainly no motion artefact issues. (It's full of action sequences). As you can see the the actual video is encoded in 576p25.

Do you have a problem with blu-ray motion artefacts ?. These are 1080p24 by your argument they ought to be very poor.

A recent poster who had a camcorder recording 1080i60 in mp4 illustrates the confusion. Thanks to a sample clip in your parlance which I analysed this should be 1080i120. The footage is actually 60fps. In fact the 1080p30 looked slightly better in my opinion (it uses a slightly higher bitrate).

Download the two clips and decide which you think best.

There's no real way to answer this it entirely depends on the encoder efficiency and the bitrate available.

I wonder what 1080i (1920 x 1080 50 fields/sec) recorded at 28Mbps would look like ? Would it look better than 1080p50 ?

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

I give up.

The Star Wars DVD I chose to decrypt is known for its picture quality. So much so clips for it are used on a THX demo disc I have.

When viewed over a component connection (ie in 576p) the picture quality is superb. Viewed over RGB (576i) it's pretty good too. There are certainly no motion artefact issues. (It's full of action sequences). As you can see the the actual video is encoded in 576p25.

Do you have a problem with blu-ray motion artefacts ?. These are 1080p24 by your argument they ought to be very poor.

Progressive footage is better picture quality, I have no argument there. Blu-ray and DVD can look superb, but they are shot with the slow frame rate in mind. Freeze frame any action on Blu-ray or DVD at 24/25fps and you will notice a lot of motion blur, i.e. you will never get a sharp still on motion. This is because to compensate for the low frame rate (lack of temporal resolution) the rule of thirds is used on the shutter to ensure the shutter is open long enough to allow movement to blur and pans and tracking shots are carefully set up to ensure it isn't a jittery mess. The blurring on motion helps keep the illusion of fluidity even though the frame rate is so slow. This is why sports on TV are always 50i, as that has twice the temporal resolution of 25p.

The problem with converting 1080/50p/60p footage from camcorders to 25p for DVD is they will not have been recorded with the slow frame rate in mind. Unless you are in manual mode for example, in daylight the shutter speed will be 1/100th second or greater. This gives excellent clarity at 50p and perfect freeze frames, but when that is only played back at 25fps the lack of deliberate motion blur means our brains stop perceiving motion and we start seeing 25 separate pictures a second, this causes judder.

I wonder what 1080i (1920 x 1080 50 fields/sec) recorded at 28Mbps would look like ? Would it look better than 1080p50 ?

It doesn't look very different to that recorded at 17Mbits/sec. I will put up samples of a 1080/50p converted to 1080/50i and 1080/25p so you can see the problems first hand.

Regards

Phil

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by PhilipL

Hi





It doesn't look very different to that recorded at 17Mbits/sec. I will put up samples of a 1080/50p converted to 1080/50i and 1080/25p so you can see the problems first hand.

Regards

Phil

Not what I meant, I was talking about footage shot natively at the higher bitrate, not converted from a progressive source. You would need a camcorder with native support for each format at the higher 28Mbps bitrate to make any valid comparisons.

20Mbps 1080i (I have a clip from the first BBC-HD satellite test transmissions) looks a lot better than the current bitrates despite so called advances in encoder performance and stat muxing.

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

20Mbps 1080i (I have a clip from the first BBC-HD satellite test transmissions) looks a lot better than the current bitrates despite so called advances in encoder performance and stat muxing.

Yes Freeview HD is pretty rubbish these days, barely better than good SD.

Regards

Phil

[pilsburypie]

Been playing around with my new SD900 and I have noticed a couple of things:

I'm worried about the sound - I have been shooting in iA for my test shots and the right channel is significantly louder than the left. This is noticble on the PC and clearly visible in Vegas as it shows the audio in it's left and right components. The right channel has obviously been recorded louder. Why is this? The sound has not been biased to the right when recording - even if eople are talking more on the left the right channel is louder.....

Another thing I have noticed is when panning. The view on the LCD display seems to keep moving even when my hand has stopped panning. Is this the OIS catching up? It's not really a problem, just noticable. Also I get a warning message displayed saying my pan is too fast. Any way of turning this off as my recorded pans would never be that fast, just when looking at the screen when paused and moving around the warning comes up..... I don't really need to be reminded not to pan fast....

I'd appreciate input from those with experience

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by PhilipL

Hi



Yes Freeview HD is pretty rubbish these days, barely better than good SD.

Regards

Phil

I was talking satellite not Freeview. Freeview-HD quality is comprimised because there is only 1 multiplex. Not a problem on satellite especially as there's a new bird at 28.2E (Astra 1N) with oodles of capacity.

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by pilsburypie

Been playing around with my new SD900 and I have noticed a couple of things:

I'm worried about the sound - I have been shooting in iA for my test shots and the right channel is significantly louder than the left. This is noticble on the PC and clearly visible in Vegas as it shows the audio in it's left and right components. The right channel has obviously been recorded louder. Why is this? The sound has not been biased to the right when recording - even if eople are talking more on the left the right channel is louder.....

On what are you playing this back on? I had the same problem playing footage back on a laptop, it was just a problem with the way the audio drivers were dealing with the surround sound.

Another thing I have noticed is when panning. The view on the LCD display seems to keep moving even when my hand has stopped panning. Is this the OIS catching up? It's not really a problem, just noticable. Also I get a warning message displayed saying my pan is too fast. Any way of turning this off as my recorded pans would never be that fast, just when looking at the screen when paused and moving around the warning comes up..... I don't really need to be reminded not to pan fast....

I'd appreciate input from those with experience

Yes it is the OIS keeping up, it is just how it works, all cameras do that to a greater or lesser degree.

You can turn of the panning messages in the menu, although I can't remember where, it's in the setup menus somewhere.

Regards

Phil

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

I was talking satellite not Freeview. Freeview-HD quality is comprimised because there is only 1 multiplex. Not a problem on satellite especially as there's a new bird at 28.2E (Astra 1N) with oodles of capacity.

It's all linked. There is enough bandwidth to improve the quality on Freeview, but they fill some of the mux with null data packets, it's reserved for a 5th channel.

The reason they reduced it on satellite was because they didn't want to favour one system over the other and as they reduced it on Freeview they reduced it on satellite as well, although I suspect cost is also a reason. I think Freeview started out at around 16Mbits/sec, it is now around 6-7Mbits.

Regards

Phil

[pilsburypie]

Thanks for your reply Phil. The audio issue is when I put the clips onto my desktop pc and import into Vegas. I can see the audio levels are different in the audio track. This difference in levels also transfers itself in the rendering for when I play back on my ps3. So you recon it is the surround sound setting causing this issue. I can see how to select 2 ch stereo in manual settings but can this be done in iA? I can't see how. So it looks like I will have an audio issue if I use iA...... Hmmmmm.

The panning catch up isn't really a problem. More of an observation. But I do however notice a bit of judder even on a fairly slow pan when rendered at 1080 50p for the ps3. I thought 50p was gonna be silky smooth. Is this another iA issue? What shutter speed does iA select? A whole mixture? Could this be the issue? Too high a shutter speed? Will selecting manual 1/50 help smooth things out?

I have also been messing with manual mode. My thinking (trying to liken it to stills camera which I understand) was that adjusting the shutter or iris was like selecting aperture priority or shutter priority on my dslr ie the camera automatically adjusts the other. But it seems as if it's only shutter priority that lets the iris be set automatically. When selecting iris it doesn't seem like the shutter is auto...... So what's the point of iris control? To set and fix all parameters? Like exposure lock?

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by pilsburypie

Thanks for your reply Phil. The audio issue is when I put the clips onto my desktop pc and import into Vegas. I can see the audio levels are different in the audio track. This difference in levels also transfers itself in the rendering for when I play back on my ps3. So you recon it is the surround sound setting causing this issue. I can see how to select 2 ch stereo in manual settings but can this be done in iA? I can't see how. So it looks like I will have an audio issue if I use iA...... Hmmmmm.

It might selecting the wrong channels in Vegas, have you got the project set to 5.1? When you drag the clip onto the timeline you should have front left and right as the first audio track, right click on that track and click Channels... and make sure it is Channels 1/2 and Both is selected. The next one down is the center channel, right click that and Channels and make sure it is channel 3. The LFE track should be channel 4, and the rear tracks should be channels 5/6 with Both selected.

The panning catch up isn't really a problem. More of an observation. But I do however notice a bit of judder even on a fairly slow pan when rendered at 1080 50p for the ps3. I thought 50p was gonna be silky smooth. Is this another iA issue? What shutter speed does iA select? A whole mixture? Could this be the issue? Too high a shutter speed? Will selecting manual 1/50 help smooth things out?

What is your HDMI output set for on the PS3? If it is 60p or 60i to your TV, you will get a judder every now and again (assuming you are playing back 50fps video), as 50 doesn't go into 60 exactly. If you can set it to 1080/50P, see if that is smoother. The PS3 may also be dropping some frames, it sort of just about supports 1080/50p by luck rather than design, so can have the odd issue.

I have also been messing with manual mode. My thinking (trying to liken it to stills camera which I understand) was that adjusting the shutter or iris was like selecting aperture priority or shutter priority on my dslr ie the camera automatically adjusts the other. But it seems as if it's only shutter priority that lets the iris be set automatically. When selecting iris it doesn't seem like the shutter is auto...... So what's the point of iris control? To set and fix all parameters? Like exposure lock?

Exactly, once you select iris you are in complete manual mode, the shutter is fixed at whatever you left it at. All Panasonic cameras I've used going back to VHS have worked in the same way. Remember it isn't a professional camera and you don't have much of a shallow depth of field on these types of camera to warrant auto shutter with manual iris.

Regards

Phil

[PhilipL]

Hi

Some conversion examples from 1080/50p are here:

1080/50p converted to 50i, this results in less resolution during movement but still smooth as it has the same temporal resolution as the original 50p footage.

1080/50p converted to 1080/25p, no resolution drop as still progressive however the fast shutter speed along with whipping the camera around makes for a juddery mess now there is half the temporal data than the original.

1080/50p to 576/25p Keeping progressive but downscaling to SD resolutions for DVD.

Note you will need to Download and play full screen to see the differences clearly rather than watching it 'YouTube' style within the page.

Regards

Phil

[Luc32]

Philip, thank you so much for posting those vids, downscaling to SD is what I'm most interested in.

And uhm, there's no other way to put it, my eyes hurt. Not because of the lower resolution (actually the colours and the clarity are still OK, considering), but because of the motion. After seeing the 50i version, I am VERY confused - is that how 25p motion SHOULD look like? I mean, is it normal? Or is the choppy motion the result of converting from 50p?

I will need to offer my customers good looking SD DVD videos, but after seeing your video... I don't know what to think anymore.

[pilsburypie]

Phil. You are a font of knowledge. I had foolishly set the project properties to stereo. Once set to 5.1 the left and right channel are much more equal.

Thanks for confirming my iris/shutter thoughts

Tomorrow I will check the ps3 settings. I'll report back.

Cheers, mark

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by PhilipL

Hi



It's all linked. There is enough bandwidth to improve the quality on Freeview, but they fill some of the mux with null data packets, it's reserved for a 5th channel.

The reason they reduced it on satellite was because they didn't want to favour one system over the other and as they reduced it on Freeview they reduced it on satellite as well, although I suspect cost is also a reason. I think Freeview started out at around 16Mbits/sec, it is now around 6-7Mbits.

Regards

Phil

In respect of satellite that only applies to the BBC channels. There is not enough bandwidth to improve Freeview-HD without any improvement in encoder performance, The total bandwidth is used using stat muxing and vbr. At the present moment a 5th channel will seriously impact on picture quality. There is no unused capability for the HD mux. Every available bit is used. (There are no null bits).

The only reason Freeview SD bitrates are now lower is

1 There are now a lot more channels sharing the UHF spectrum (mostly crap)

2 To let the government make some money from the digital dividend post dso all the SD channels are squashed into 5 UHF mux instead of 6, leaving one DVB-T2 mux for HD.

A tad off topic really need to continue this discussion in the Freeview/Freesat forums here.

[12harry]

Not sure Luc32 has had a reply on buying a US-standard - if I may?.... Don't. The issues go further than having the "wrong" standard (although that may be a lesser issue), but your G'tee will be somewhat difficult to exercise.... whay you might try is to see if the store can export one with the Euro-standard - not exactly straightforward, but at least the G'tee should follow the goods, but check Customs, in case there is Import Duty.

The time the "Standard" will become an issue is trying to sell it...

You might save some money now, but the "cost of ownership" may be far worse.. ....all IMHO.

[PhilipL]

Hi

Originally Posted by Luc32

Philip, thank you so much for posting those vids, downscaling to SD is what I'm most interested in.

And uhm, there's no other way to put it, my eyes hurt. Not because of the lower resolution (actually the colours and the clarity are still OK, considering), but because of the motion. After seeing the 50i version, I am VERY confused - is that how 25p motion SHOULD look like? I mean, is it normal? Or is the choppy motion the result of converting from 50p?

I will need to offer my customers good looking SD DVD videos, but after seeing your video... I don't know what to think anymore.

Unfortunately it isn't because of the conversion as you would have the same effect if you had shot it natively in 25p.

The problem is for slow frame rates like 25p (or 24p even in cinema) you have to take great care to avoid motion problems. In film there are certain rules, for example the 180 degree shutter rule, and that an actor shouldn't walk across the frame any quicker than 7 seconds. Also shallow depth of field of film cameras helps in film as you can throw a lot of detail out of focus, for example tracking and actor walking or running, the camera follows the actor so they aren't actually moving in the frame, with the background scrolling past out of focus, so judder isn't experienced.

With camcorders they are designed for video and that example clip is full of motion and camera pans. The camcorder would have set the shutter speed to around 1/100th sec or probably faster so there is little motion blur in each frame. This is fine at 50Hz (50 progressive or 50 interlaced samples a second) as there are enough images flicking past our eyes in a second to fool us into seeing smooth motion. Remember video/film is all an illusion, there is no motion, it is just a series of still images, so when that is cut down to just 25 sharply taken frames a second, the illusion of motion is getting lost, and the judder we see is because our brains are now seeing still images flicker up one after the other. The cinema often is called the 'flicks' for a reason, it's an age old problem.

One way of improving conversation and avoiding judder with 25p is to video with that in mind. The 180 degree shutter rule for film says 1/48th shutter speed should be used (2 x 24fps), for 25p video that is 1/50th. The slow shutter speeds allows anything moving in the shot to blur slightly in each frame, so when we watch that back at 25fps, the blurring tricks our brains into still seeing smooth motion, it sort of helps bridge the gap between one frame and the other, and because something moving for real would naturally blur in our vision, our brains work with it. Whipping the camera around and racking the zoom in and out should also be avoided. Anything moving fast in the shot needs to be considered carefully. With these types of video cameras you don't have much option for throwing the background out of focus and we generally don't lay down tracks and dolly's or have very expensive steady cams for smooth pans, so we can't always do what they do in film to cope with the slower frame rate.

That clip is the worst possible clip I could have used, but illustrates the problem. If you are filming weddings for example, using a tripod and sticking with a 1/50th second shutter speed (you will need an ND filter for bright outdoors light) and keeping the above in mind, it shouldn't be too hard to get very good SD at 25p.

Regards

Phil

[pilsburypie]

God I'm a useless tw4t! Been looking at my ps3 settings (video settings) and seem to have a choice of certain things or automatic. Trouble is I can't see something as simple as turn 60p to 50p!!! Can anyone spell it out to me?

I'll be asking people to come and take the footage for me next! I do hope others are learning from my buffoonery and are not shaking their heads in disbelief!