[StarScream_F22]

Hi all, I'm new here as you can tell.

I was initially going to buy the Panasonic HDC-SD10, however I have increased my budget to £500. I understand that the SD10 didn't have very good results in low light condtions and so with the new budget I hope you will be able to recommend me a HD camcorder that improves in this area as well as others.

Thank you.

[StarScream_F22]

So....?

[senu]

Your thread title has been edited for better response
TBH there are similar current threads ( which you could find useful)
but
In a word
The SD 10 is fine
you need to read reviews with a little circumspection
Hopefully folk will now come along and suggest better, if there is any better for the money
Just be aware all these New Hi def amcorders wil giv e your PC a hard time if it more than a few years old

[StarScream_F22]

Originally Posted by senu

Your thread title has been edited for better response
TBH there are similar current threads ( which you could find useful)
but
In a word
The SD 10 is fine
you need to read reviews with a little circumspection
Hopefully folk will now come along and suggest better, if there is any better for the money
Just be aware all these New Hi def amcorders wil giv e your PC a hard time if it more than a few years old

Thanks for the title change. I've read a ton of threads on this forum regarding the SD10, SD20 and SD200. I believe I read that the cannon HF200 or something like that is the only competition against the SD200? If so whats the main difference and which is better in lower light conditions.

I'm now looking to spend up to £600 but would prefer if the camera is below that mark so I can buy a mini HDMI cable and/or a sd card.

[senu]

Il leave cleverer folk to answer but I think the differences are more cosmetic than functional and a liitle more dosh give yo more maual contrls and perap beer low light but at this level you are unlikely to go worng for absoute quality

[StarScream_F22]

Originally Posted by senu

Il leave cleverer folk to answer but I think the differences are more cosmetic than functional and a liitle more dosh give yo more maual contrls and perap beer low light but at this level you are unlikely to go worng for absoute quality

I would like to clarify that I've never owned a camcorder before however I do know a little bit still as my cousin has a Cannon XLH1 and we record videos with it regularly. I have a saying that if I'm to get something (something worth getting like a camcorder in this case), atleast get that which is mid-top in the consumer range.

Thanks in advance to all of the advice that will hopefully be coming my way.

[senu]

Originally Posted by StarScream_F22

I would like to clarify that I've never owned a camcorder before however I do know a little bit still as my cousin has a Cannon XLH1 and we record videos with it regularly.

That is a £4000 camcorder which is a top class prosumer HDV model
It has 3 CCDs, a big fast lens and a lot of videographer friendly manula control t justify its hefty price tag
The XH A1 is newer and probably better VFM ( and a little less costly) but bare in mind they are tape models

I have a saying that if I'm to get something (something worth getting like a camcorder in this case), atleast get that which is mid-top in the consumer range.

Then the SD 10 is not what you want . good though it is
I would wait for the suggestions..they will come

[StarScream_F22]

Originally Posted by senu

That is a £4000 camcorder which is a top class prosumer HDV model
It has 3 CCDs, a big fast lens and a lot of videographer friendly manula control t justify its hefty price tag
Yh XH A1 is newer ant probanly better VFM ( and a ittle les costly) but bar in mind they are tape models

Here are 2 videos my cousin made with his XLH1:

YouTube - Flowers HD

YouTube - Pyrénées, France High Definition

[uzumaki_1]

Hey there. Am in a very similar predicament myslef at the moment. The only difference is that my budget is smaller than urs. For £500-600 you can get a camcorder thats very high spec so u want to make the right choice. Am getting my first HD camcorder for my holiday in 2 weeks and want it to be perfect. I've been looking at the Canon HF 100 and Canon HF10. If its quality your looking for then you'll find them in Canon cameras. Also you might want to really consider Panasonic HDC SD10. The specs look promising. Theres also the Sony HDR CX 105. The specs on that cam are really decent. If you want something similar to the HDRCX 105 then the HDRCX106 is a similar model with a 60GB Hard Drive. At the start when I was looking for a camcorder then I wanted a hard drive cam so i'd have no fuss with SD cards but there too expensive...for your budget its worth taking a look at the Hard Drive cams as its just easier to offload footage. Sorry if i waffled on but i know what its like when your in this situation and you don't know what to get. I've been researching on what camcorder to buy for over 2 months now and i've still not decided !!! lol....if anyone has more suggestions then please contribute and it would mean alot to me and "StarScream F22" !!!!

[senu]

Originally Posted by uzumaki_1

Hey there. Am in a very similar predicament myslef at the moment. The only difference is that my budget is smaller than urs. For £500-600 you can get a camcorder thats very high spec so u want to make the right choice. Am getting my first HD camcorder for my holiday in 2 weeks and want it to be perfect

None of them is , There is a market for everybody. ( they go up to £1000) Most will have something for everybody though, but our needs vary.
Also one must avoid getting to comaparing images from BBC HD , Sky HD and BluRay with what consumer camcorder should produce. Someone here as descrbed them as " memory makers" rather than pro kit.

. I've been looking at the Canon HF 100 and Canon HF10. If its quality your looking for then you'll find them in Canon cameras

All the brands make quality TBH. And I have ( and still ) use from all brands,

Also you might want to really consider Panasonic HDC SD10. The specs look promising.

I thought that is what he is considering

Theres also the Sony HDR CX 105. The specs on that cam are really decent. If you want something similar to the HDRCX 105 then the HDRCX106 is a similar model with a 60GB Hard Drive. At the start when I was looking for a camcorder then I wanted a hard drive cam so i'd have no fuss with SD cards but there too expensive...for your budget its worth taking a look at the Hard Drive cams as its just easier to offload footage

Sony makes even better models . Im using the Sony XR200V now but the 520 ect are even better.. and HDD are not easier to offload . In fact the Card models may be
Beware of Paper specs, they should be taken with a pinch of stew seasoning

. Sorry if i waffled on but i know what its like when your in this situation and you don't know what to get. I've been researching on what camcorder to buy for over 2 months now and i've still not decided !!! lol....if anyone has more suggestions then please contribute and it would mean alot to me and "StarScream F22" !!!!

They will come
I just pointed out that the model the OP post You tube videos on is a SemiPro/ high end Prosumer £4000 HDV ( tape) model with superior optics and electronics to many to the consumer camcorders you are suggesting. however, the Current AVCHD models have become quite impressive lately for the money

[StarScream_F22]

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Panasonic HDC-SD200. I would like to know of it's competitors in the same price range £500-£600 and how they compare to the HDC-SD200? Thanks.

[uzumaki_1]

The things you've responded back from my comments havent helped anyone in this post. I don't know your background but some people think that the camcorders I suggested are really amatuer cams whereas I think there quite high spec cams. For the price range starscream 22 is looking at i think they are good enough to perform for his needs. If you can justify buying a £4000 cam vs a £600 cam then fair enough. From looking at the youtube videos you can film that same scene with a £600 cam, take it into after effects, put a gradient black circle effect on and give it a bleach bypass colour effect. I mean all of that is what makes the end result of the video looking good. If it werent for them effects then it wud be another HD video clip on youtube. Going off the point now what am trying to say is that its okay to spend £600 on a cam because you are going to get fantastic results...how you use the cam and lighting is what makes the footage seem less amatuer.

[senu]

Originally Posted by uzumaki_1

The things you've responded back from my comments havent helped anyone in this post.

How?
I simply suggseted to the OP that he should be wary of comparing output from a £4000 camcorder ( which he did iby showing the clips) to those of the current consumer camcorders no matter how good they are
You also suggeseted he consider the SD 10 which he is doing
Making the point there is no perfect camcorder is by no means being unhelpful.

It is just saying that they all will have somewhere they dont perform perfectly but this may not matter to you

Also Canon make great kit but so do all the other brands

I don't know your background but some people think that the camcorders I suggested are really amatuer cams whereas I think there quite high spec cams.

Im not sure where or how my background matters ... The camcorders you suggeseted are good quality comsumer camcorders but by their very nature that is what they are. I have used them like them but Im aware of just how much to expect
Many struggle with low light indoors and unfortunately that is where we are most likely to use them
As it happens, Sony does make better models than the 105/106 and I would have thought Flash card camcorders are just as easy to download as HDD if not easier ( as per your suggestion) The card models also use less power and can be a little smaller.
There are good reasons for prefering one over the other but ease of downloading isnt one of them

For the price range starscream 22 is looking at i think they are good enough to perform for his needs. If you can justify buying a £4000 cam vs a £600 cam then fair enough.

Im not sure if you are getting my post in its real context It was not myself who posted up examples from the XLH1
I would read the last sentence in my post again..

Originally Posted by senu

...I just pointed out that the model the OP post You Tube videos on is a SemiPro/ high end Prosumer £4000 HDV ( tape) model with superior optics and electronics compared to many to the consumer camcorders you are suggesting. however, the Current AVCHD models have become quite impressive lately for the money

..

From looking at the youtube videos you can film that same scene with a £600 cam, take it into after effects, put a gradient black circle effect on and give it a bleach bypass colour effect. I mean all of that is what makes the end result of the video looking good. If it werent for them effects then it wud be another HD video clip on youtube.

I agree .. Some one posted ( deleted now but in a new thread See link below ) quite impressive video from a Panasonic which is around £600 or just a bit more ; just to prove your point

Going off the point now what am trying to say is that its okay to spend £600 on a cam because you are going to get fantastic results...how you use the cam and lighting is what makes the footage seem less amatuer.

Correct
What is also true too is that when you spend a bit more you are less at the mercy of the camcorders limitations ( on auto settings) especially if it has a lot more manual control.
Better kit just makes it easier if you already have the know how
Im a little confused and not sure if you are not misinterpreting my post:
Nowhere in it is I am asking anyone to shell out £4000, just to be aware that in seeking the "perfect" one for £600 it is possible to look too hard
They are all generally very good , as long as one keeps expectations realistic

[senu]

Have a look
HD Camcorder Quality Example
Very decent kit, Not a Canon, and not £4000

[uzumaki_1]

Originally Posted by senu

Have a look
HD Camcorder Quality Example
Very decent kit, Not a Canon, and not £4000

Well what do you expect from a camcorder that costs £1000 ??? If you had shown me a £600 camera doing that then fair enough but even i know that a cam worth that much regardless of its make will perform that well. I did miss understand somethings in my last post so sorry for that but i just hate it when people quote cams that are worth alot of money and then say "look how well it performs"....well duhhh of course it will !!!

[senu]

Originally Posted by uzumaki_1

Well what do you expect from a camcorder that costs £1000 ??? If you had shown me a £600 camera doing that then fair enough but even i know that a cam worth that much regardless of its make will perform that well.

Im using the Sony XR200V ( as a trial) which is not as good doesnt cost more than £600 and would recommend it as long as one didnt use it in low light indoors a lot
However, I merely pointed out that thread to show that camcorders less than £1000 can perform.; It is actually £800 at Amazon
£200 less than my ageing HDR HC1...

I did miss understand somethings in my last post so sorry for that but i just hate it when people quote cams that are worth alot of money and then say "look how well it performs"....well duhhh of course it will !!!

In a sense what it demonstrates is that you get what you pay for..and we all have to know where to draw the line at spending.. it is a finite resource
Anyone who needs to use kit for a Project ( especially revenue bearing) can hire for not a lot..
But what is clear is that whatever you get for £600 today is going to get you much far more definition than SD kit of yesteryears especially in good shooting conditions. In my Case even the Panasonic is arguably better than the £1000 HDR HC1 HDV ( hi def tape) ( although I really still prefer the HDV format for editing ect)
All in a kit which is smaller and easieer to transfer to PC.
Low light is still a work in progress and PC playback and editing on modest PCs.. a worry ..

[stuu3270]

I am in the same boat as many others... searching for my first camcorder but don't want to spend peanuts to get something that is 'OK', when I could spend a little more to get something that is 'good'.

By budget started about £250 before realising the full range range of what is out there. I am now looking around the £350 - £500 mark and whilst I know I will not get something amazing I still expect something that will impress.

The thing I get a little frustrated with is people rating things or comparing things that are, as uzumaki 1 says, obviously going to perform as they are a high end product.

Often I will often read that a mid range product is rubbish and can't do this well or won't do that so well as the other one. Its a bit like Michael Schumacher saying that a BMW 320 sports touring is rubbish because it won't go as fast as say a top of the range Mercedes. But, to the average person a BMW of that spec would fullfil most of their needs. I wouldn't buy a BMW to go 180mph but would expect it to be good quality, go in a straight line, look good and be comfortable with a few fun extras.

I suppose what I am trying to say is in a rambling kind of way is that the type of person using a mid range camcorder would be happy with a HD picture but wouldn't expect top of the range George Lucas type movies for high end editing.

So, is the image on these mid range cameras (say, £300 - £600) really that bad? Or are they just bad in the eyes of experts who use high end stuff?

Stu

[chewoot]

I have to agree with Senu, there is so little difference with daylight recorded HD nowadays that manufactures are concentrating on improving the low light performance. They also look to other things to highlight the upper performance. Panny has more manual control, Sony has GPS and nightshot and Canon pushing the high mbit rate.

A friend of mine purchased the Panny SD20 and although light and small it does lack the enhancments the OIS is quite poor and the low light is slightly worse, however he is using a tripod and does not use at night or indoors so it is perfect for him.

It is all down to the personal preference and i understand what Senu is saying. Why pay for something / quality if you dont need it.

[stuu3270]

Its so difficult because until you spend the cash and get one you won't know just how good or poor it is. I don't want to spend the money and be dissappointed. I could go into a shop and look but they probably won't be able to show me the video results on a LCD TV afterwards though.

The research goes on...

Stu

[chewoot]

What are you using / wanting it for Stu.

Trusted Reviews have some good reviews and can be a help and this Sony has not done bad in the reviews.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/camcor...-HDR-CX105E/p1

It is running out new on Ebay at sub £370 brand new.

[stuu3270]

It will be for our new baby, stuff at home, out and about, holidays, events. Average user really, nothing professional. I have always lived by 'you get what you pay for'. I cannot justify going much over £450 though!

I want the results to be as good as they can be at the kind of price I want to pay. I have a PC with some good editing software (e.g. Sony Vegas) and will want to do some fancy stuff with what I film.

I am just worried about the reviews that say low light is bad and even outdoor stuff is not so good. I have looked on youtube at some HD stuff. Is that proper HD resolution that I will get on a TV or is it posted differently on youtube?

Stu

[uzumaki_1]

Originally Posted by stuu3270

It will be for our new baby, stuff at home, out and about, holidays, events. Average user really, nothing professional. I have always lived by 'you get what you pay for'. I cannot justify going much over £450 though!

I want the results to be as good as they can be at the kind of price I want to pay. I have a PC with some good editing software (e.g. Sony Vegas) and will want to do some fancy stuff with what I film.

I am just worried about the reviews that say low light is bad and even outdoor stuff is not so good. I have looked on youtube at some HD stuff. Is that proper HD resolution that I will get on a TV or is it posted differently on youtube?

Stu

HAHA....am in the same boat like I said before...The Sony HDR CX105 is an excellent choice....its prob something that i might go for if I cant find anything else. That or there is the Panasonic HDC SD10 which, too me, is kind of an alternative to the Sony model mentioned before. These two cams are the ones i've been looking for. Today i've been looking at Canon's camcorders and boy do the specs look delicious !!! Unfortunatley the price is way too much although if u look for them on ebay then you can get a refurb. I just checked one today but it turns out to be a NTSC model so no good. After I stopped looking at Canon cams I asked myself weather I shud even bother with the CX105 or SD10.

Also the quality of Youtube HD videos is not a true representation of the actual quality. First its in 720p, your videos will be in 1080p. Also the bitrate youtube shows at is nothing compared to the actual raw file.


Right now i've looked at so many camcorders i've started to think why dont i just get a cheap £100 HD cam and call it a day but then i think what about the 17mbps 1080p 24p(25p for uk) video I could be recording on my holidays !!!!!!! URGHHHHHH.....so fustrated !!!

[chewoot]

Originally Posted by uzumaki_1

HAHA....am in the same boat like I said before...The Sony HDR CX105 is an excellent choice....its prob something that i might go for if I cant find anything else. That or there is the Panasonic HDC SD10 which, too me, is kind of an alternative to the Sony model mentioned before. These two cams are the ones i've been looking for. Today i've been looking at Canon's camcorders and boy do the specs look delicious !!! Unfortunatley the price is way too much although if u look for them on ebay then you can get a refurb. I just checked one today but it turns out to be a NTSC model so no good. After I stopped looking at Canon cams I asked myself weather I shud even bother with the CX105 or SD10.

Also the quality of Youtube HD videos is not a true representation of the actual quality. First its in 720p, your videos will be in 1080p. Also the bitrate youtube shows at is nothing compared to the actual raw file.


Right now i've looked at so many camcorders i've started to think why dont i just get a cheap £100 HD cam and call it a day but then i think what about the 17mbps 1080p 24p(25p for uk) video I could be recording on my holidays !!!!!!! URGHHHHHH.....so fustrated !!!

Why are you concerned about the NTSC, if you are playing back on any LCD or Plasma HD panel you wont have any concerns as they take both formats.

[uzumaki_1]

Originally Posted by chewoot

Why are you concerned about the NTSC, if you are playing back on any LCD or Plasma HD panel you wont have any concerns as they take both formats.

Yeah but what if I record something for family and they want it on dvd ? I heard you get problems doing that. Also isnt it true that you get flickering problems when converting to PAL video when using a NTSC camcorder?

[chewoot]

Just rendered two small files in Vegas pro, one is rendering in NTSC 29.970fps and the other in PAL 25.000fps

YouTube - Rendering in NTSC

YouTube - Rendering in PAL

The motion is pretty quick moving and i cant see where any frames are being dropped out, and the quality still seems fine even on my 46" LCD forced to PAL only.

[uzumaki_1]

Originally Posted by chewoot

Just rendered two small files in Vegas pro, one is rendering in NTSC 29.970fps and the other in PAL 25.000fps

YouTube - Rendering in NTSC

YouTube - Rendering in PAL

The motion is pretty quick moving and i cant see where any frames are being dropped out, and the quality still seems fine even on my 46" LCD forced to PAL only.

Am guessing you own an NTSC camcorder ? So your telling me you have no problems whatsoever?

[chewoot]

I do have an NTSC model and i personally have had no issues.

[uzumaki_1]

Originally Posted by chewoot

I do have an NTSC model and i personally have had no issues.

Have you tried converting to DVD? Has it gave you any problems or image loss ? I was a video on youtube where the person recorded a light bulb through an NTSC cam and converted it to 50i/PAL and the light bulb has major flickering on the video. Its things like that, that have put me off buying one or i would of bought one now. Which now am considering because you've said theres no problems...

[chewoot]

I have seen the video i think you are on about, is the video not showing a Fluorescent tube?. I am no expert in any way shape or form when it comes to HD video but would not all camcorders stuggle to film a fluorescent tube as they run at somewhere around 100-120hz frequency and unfortunatly unlike the human eye (which if the manufactures could replicate would be awesome) the cameras capture in frames rather than motion. So if you are filming a tube running at 100-120hz with a camera running at 25 or 30fps would it still not flicker when zoomed in for close up?

I have just filmed below with the NTSC and the converted to PAL, it is under a flourescent and you can see a flicker when zoomed in but in normal filming it is not noticeable.

YouTube - light

[loz]

Originally Posted by uzumaki_1

Well what do you expect from a camcorder that costs £1000 ??? If you had shown me a £600 camera doing that then fair enough but even i know that a cam worth that much regardless of its make will perform that well. I did miss understand somethings in my last post so sorry for that but i just hate it when people quote cams that are worth alot of money and then say "look how well it performs"....well duhhh of course it will !!!

Bear in mind that the Panasonic HDC-HS200 is a £600 version of that camera.

It has the same insides and lens as the TM300 used in those videos, but lacks the additional manual controls, and viewfinder.

But picture quality wise, it is exactly the same
Panasonic HDC-HS200 Review - Camcorder Reviews - TrustedReviews