New Camcorder

[shezza]

Hi all Yes yet another member asking about the best camcorder to buy,and I know there isn't a best
But perhaps someone can give me which would be the most suitable for wild life filming, The Canon XL2 XM2
or Panasonic HMC 151.

[ade4all]

those are 3 very different cameras at different price brackets. the xl2 is a very large std def camera with progressive that uses mini dv tape, it has a good 20x zoom lens that ships with the camera which would be good for wildlife but it is a big fella to lug around & you will need a fairly expensive & heavy tripod to get the most out of it. the xm2 is much smaller, also shoots sd on mini dv with 20x zoom that shoots interlaced. the panasonic hmc 151 is in a totally different class - a hi def camera which shoots progressive avchd onto sd cards & has a 14x zoom.
the image from the hmc151 will blow the other 2 away, its hi def against std def - you need to figure out if you want sd or hd. I would recommend hd if you are serious about wildlife filming - in my opinion the hmc151 produces the best image of all the prosumer cameras in its class but avchd is a bit of a bugger to edit unless you have a pretty powerful computer - although if you have premiere cs4.1 it will now edit natively on a fairly modest core 2 duo. For wildlife you may want a longer zoom than the 14x of the hmc - if low light is not so important then i would also look at the canon xha1 which shoots hdv onto mini dv & has a 20x zoom - easier for editing & longer zoom (though i still prefer the image of the hmc & its low light capabilities)
a lot of choices, i think you need to work from the budget you have & bare in mind that to get the most from the zoom on any of these cameras you need to spend a fair bit on tripod supprot too
good luck

[shezza]

Thanks for your reply ade4all,
So it looks as though HD is better than mini dv
is the HMC the only HD available?also does any mfg make a teleconverter for the front of the 14x lens or does it have digital zoom as well.
I have a budget of around £2,500 all suggestions welcome........Pete.
PS. I use CyberLink PowerDirector for editing would that be a problem with any of the cameras that I have mentioned.

[senu]

Originally Posted by shezza

Thanks for your reply ade4all,
So it looks as though HD is better than mini dv

HD as in Hard disc drive? .. MiniDV tape aslo records to Hi def as HDV and that is easier to edit...

I have a budget of around £2,500 all suggestions welcome........Pete

I would give the Canon XH A1 a good look if you dont mind tape . It is" better""than the XM2.

PS. I use CyberLink PowerDirector for editing would that be a problem with any of the cameras that I have mentioned.

Does your version edit AVCHD or even HDV if not it wil be a Probem
therwise Im not too sure on the amount of control and output options you have with It . it sems to e user friendly but feature lean as well but YMMV

PS : I just see ade4all has mentioned the XH A1 too

[shezza]

Thanks for your replies, I have come down to a couple of cameras and I wonder if anyone could share their veiws on them. They are SonyHDR FX1000 (because of 20x zoom + 30x digital) and Canon XH A1.

[ade4all]

have not used the sony myself but a friend borrowed 1 &, was disapointed with its low light capabilities & lack of xlr audio inputs - if audio is important to you I would definitely recommend camera with xlr. it also has cmos chips so you should do a bit of research on possible skew & wobble problems that can affect the image
i really like the xha1, its the best hdv camera i've used but someone with experience of the sony may tell you different.
sorry not much help really

[senu]

Originally Posted by ade4all

have not used the sony myself but a friend borrowed 1 &, was disapointed with its low light capabilities & lack of xlr audio inputs - if audio is important to you I would definitely recommend camera with xlr.

At a cost;

it also has cmos chips so you should do a bit of research on possible skew & wobble problems that can affect the image

Im not sure that isnt more acaemic than it ued to be.. if it was so ba .. the Sony camcorders would never sell. I have Sony CCD and CMOS camcorders and like both

i really like the xha1, its the best hdv camera i've used but someone with experience of the sony may tell you different

.
I endorse the XH A1 similarly it is Fab but Im perhaps a little less troubled by the CMOS /CCD issue as you seem to be.. I notice you tend to stick with Panasonic .. and in this case Canon .(Incidentally Canon and Pasonic use CMOS for thier Higher end cosumer camcorders now)
In truth technology has advanced enough to blur that alone as the single deal breaker but I agree the XH A1 is great

[ade4all]

was expecting such a response - i know we've discussed this before but will try to elaborate a bit more -
regards cmos, i just think it is better for people to be informed so they can make an educated choice, it does seem to be getting better but all cmos cameras will exhibit skew & problems with flash photography to some degree, just the nature of it - if someone is willing to spend £2500 on a camera then obviously they are serious about getting the best image they can & i feel it is worth pointing out that in certain situations cmos can create problems - at least if you are aware of it you can then take care not to let it affect your footage or choose a differnet type of camera. i merely advised the op to do a bit of research to see if it was something that might affect them - i think that is better advice than to keep saying sony wouldn't sell cameras if it was a problem etc. for many this is not an issue, for others it is, better to know either way before you spend a lot of money on something
my favourite camera is actually the sony ex1 which has cmos chips, it creates an amazingly sharp image but i would not use it for events where i know flash photography may be used or for a lot of handheld stuff because its a bugger to hold ergonomically & i've had skewed footage which has upset a client before - but on a tripod its hard to beat
i'm not brand loyal i just happen to prefer the pana hmc151 image over anything else i've tried in its price range, the canon xha1 the best of the hdv cameras that i have used, the sony ex1 best of the sub £6k cameras
regarding xlr i say if audio is important then you will want to use decent microphones & they use balnced xlr cables - just something i thought worth mentioning given the op has a decent budget for a camera. i see people always willing to spend what it takes to get a good image but the audio side is often neglected & to me it is at least as important - i am far more forgiving of image quality than bad sound which can easily ruin nice visuals
sorry to go off subject just trying to give some advice that the op or whoever may not be aware of - its up to them then to choose whats important for their needs/budget
tis all good - its great to have so many choices, just feel i get jumped on a bit around here if i mention cmos issues that a person may not be aware of, or suggest that there is something better out there (in my opinion) than some of the sony hdv cameras

[shezza]

Well thanks for all the feed back which has narrowed down my choice. Just another thought on editing At the moment I use a Panasonic SDR-H60 which has a hard drive and downloads all the individual clips to my computer which makes for easy assembly and editing, fades etc. via Cyberlink PowerDirector. Now what happens with Mini dv tape as per the Canon, when shooting the the film is it one continuous tape as opposed to clips and does it download as a continuous film, if so how is the editing done ie fades ect. Plus with individual clips it's easy to move them to the order that one requires,and also use two the same clips in different places? I'm sorry if it seems that I dont know a deal, but all I remember is the old type of video 8 tape where you filmed in on long length and that was it, which I dont want to go back to. So basically is the editing of the hard drive clips that I have now completley different from the Mini dv tape.

[rogs]

Excellent advice from ade4all and Senu - as always!

If it was me with £2500 to spend, I think the Panasonic HMC 151 wins hands down in that price range, at the moment.

Although there are still many fans of tape based cameras, I can't help feeling we're on the last 'lap' of tape based video, so to speak.
Even at the pro level, many broadcasters are either going, or have already gone, solid state, and lower end tape based consumer cameras are becoming increasingly rare.

Also becoming rare are cameras with CCD sensors (apart from the very high end pro kit).
For certain types of filming- weddings for example - CMOS 'rolling shutter' issues can be a real problem. This article here: CMOS Rolling Shutter lists some of the different issues arising.

The problems with editing AVCHD footage can be very real, but if you are prepared, then it's not really very difficult at all.
You either need a powerful computer - quad core typically - or you can convert the AVCHD footage into an intermediate format that's much easier to edit , and is much less demanding of computer resources. Typical intermediate formats are Cineform Neo Scene, or Canopus HQ.

I think for my £2500, I would go for the HMC 151 camera, and EDIUS Neo 2 NLE Software for editing. That way I wouldn't need to upgrade my computer, just to deal with the AVCHD footage from the camera. Not sure if the budget would quite make it though!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Just noticed that maybe it would be in budget - Panasonic are bundling Neo2 software with the AHMC151 at the moment. Obviously great minds think alike!

See here: http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/e..._objectID=3713

[shezza]

This Cmos/Rolling Shutter seems a bit of a problem!
Which of the two cameras have this feature
XH-A1 or the HMC-151?

[rogs]

Both the XH A1 and the HMC 151 have CCD sensors, so no rolling shutter issues with either camera.
I should say that most people seem have no problem with rolling shutters, you just need to be aware of the issues, and shoot accordingly.
If the kind of thing you are going to shoot is likely to be affected by rolling shutters - like videoing where there is a lot of rapid movement, or where there is likely to be lots of flash photography, as in wedding videography, you would probably be better off selecting a camera with CCD sensors.

[ade4all]

nicely summed up rogs, for filming wildlife rolling shuter will probably not be an issue - just good to be aware of - i think a decent zoom would be a more important consideration, thats why i recommended the xha1 even though i prefer the image of the hmc151. i think you can get lens adaptors which will increase the zoom but to get 1 that will not compromise the quality will cost accordingly & bring you over your budget

[senu]

Originally Posted by ade4all

was expecting such a response - i know we've discussed this before but will try to elaborate a bit more -

That is what I was hoping you would do. not flaming you at all
I didnt even mention the EX 1 which I love to bits because it isnt that pocket friendly
And No , I also dont think Tape will last for ever. I do wish the brands would stop using " exotic" proprietary solid state cards which cost an arm and a leg
Red for instance does use Bog standard CF cards

. i merely advised the op to do a bit of research to see if it was something that might affect them - i think that is better advice than to keep saying sony wouldn't sell cameras if it was a problem etc. for many this is not an issue, for others it is, better to know either way before you spend a lot of money on something
my favourite camera is actually the sony ex1 which has cmos chips, it creates an amazingly sharp image but i would not use it for events where i know flash photography may be used or for a lot of handheld stuff because its a bugger to hold ergonomically & i've had skewed footage which has upset a client before - but on a tripod its hard to beat

My point there is that Sony has been flamed for using CMOS on it but maybe the implementation of CMOS has improved enough to no longer be that worried about it
I really honestly dont mind which camera employs which sensor as long as the job ets done: Camcorders are tools at the end of the day. My personal take learn to use them and know their strengths and weaknesses

i'm not brand loyal i just happen to prefer the pana hmc151 image over anything else i've tried in its price range,

The reference to Panasonic was a bit of leg pulling.. I couldnt help being mischievous ..
I have used 2 or 3 decent Panasonic models in the past and found them very praiseworthy

the canon xha1 the best of the hdv cameras that i have used, the sony ex1 best of the sub £6k cameras

Id have to agree on that without hesitation

tis all good - its great to have so many choices, just feel i get jumped on a bit around here if i mention cmos issues that a person may not be aware of, or suggest that there is something better out there (in my opinion) than some of the sony hdv cameras

I would lighen up on that .. Nobody works for Sony here and I do value your contribtions on here even if It isnt often said
That said.. CMOS is here to stay, tape will die and I just hope we will not be pushed into a one horse race of choice.. bad for the end user..

[A n d r e w]

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment: CCD has its own technical limitations. Highlight smear, anyone?