[shezza]

Hi all Yes yet another member asking about the best camcorder to buy,and I know there isn't a best
But perhaps someone can give me which would be the most suitable for wild life filming, The Canon XL2 XM2
or Panasonic HMC 151.

[ade4all]

those are 3 very different cameras at different price brackets. the xl2 is a very large std def camera with progressive that uses mini dv tape, it has a good 20x zoom lens that ships with the camera which would be good for wildlife but it is a big fella to lug around & you will need a fairly expensive & heavy tripod to get the most out of it. the xm2 is much smaller, also shoots sd on mini dv with 20x zoom that shoots interlaced. the panasonic hmc 151 is in a totally different class - a hi def camera which shoots progressive avchd onto sd cards & has a 14x zoom.
the image from the hmc151 will blow the other 2 away, its hi def against std def - you need to figure out if you want sd or hd. I would recommend hd if you are serious about wildlife filming - in my opinion the hmc151 produces the best image of all the prosumer cameras in its class but avchd is a bit of a bugger to edit unless you have a pretty powerful computer - although if you have premiere cs4.1 it will now edit natively on a fairly modest core 2 duo. For wildlife you may want a longer zoom than the 14x of the hmc - if low light is not so important then i would also look at the canon xha1 which shoots hdv onto mini dv & has a 20x zoom - easier for editing & longer zoom (though i still prefer the image of the hmc & its low light capabilities)
a lot of choices, i think you need to work from the budget you have & bare in mind that to get the most from the zoom on any of these cameras you need to spend a fair bit on tripod supprot too
good luck

[shezza]

Thanks for your reply ade4all,
So it looks as though HD is better than mini dv
is the HMC the only HD available?also does any mfg make a teleconverter for the front of the 14x lens or does it have digital zoom as well.
I have a budget of around £2,500 all suggestions welcome........Pete.
PS. I use CyberLink PowerDirector for editing would that be a problem with any of the cameras that I have mentioned.

[senu]

Originally Posted by shezza

Thanks for your reply ade4all,
So it looks as though HD is better than mini dv

HD as in Hard disc drive? .. MiniDV tape aslo records to Hi def as HDV and that is easier to edit...

I have a budget of around £2,500 all suggestions welcome........Pete

I would give the Canon XH A1 a good look if you dont mind tape . It is" better""than the XM2.

PS. I use CyberLink PowerDirector for editing would that be a problem with any of the cameras that I have mentioned.

Does your version edit AVCHD or even HDV if not it wil be a Probem
therwise Im not too sure on the amount of control and output options you have with It . it sems to e user friendly but feature lean as well but YMMV

PS : I just see ade4all has mentioned the XH A1 too

[shezza]

Thanks for your replies, I have come down to a couple of cameras and I wonder if anyone could share their veiws on them. They are SonyHDR FX1000 (because of 20x zoom + 30x digital) and Canon XH A1.

[ade4all]

have not used the sony myself but a friend borrowed 1 &, was disapointed with its low light capabilities & lack of xlr audio inputs - if audio is important to you I would definitely recommend camera with xlr. it also has cmos chips so you should do a bit of research on possible skew & wobble problems that can affect the image
i really like the xha1, its the best hdv camera i've used but someone with experience of the sony may tell you different.
sorry not much help really

[senu]

Originally Posted by ade4all

have not used the sony myself but a friend borrowed 1 &, was disapointed with its low light capabilities & lack of xlr audio inputs - if audio is important to you I would definitely recommend camera with xlr.

At a cost;

it also has cmos chips so you should do a bit of research on possible skew & wobble problems that can affect the image

Im not sure that isnt more acaemic than it ued to be.. if it was so ba .. the Sony camcorders would never sell. I have Sony CCD and CMOS camcorders and like both

i really like the xha1, its the best hdv camera i've used but someone with experience of the sony may tell you different

.
I endorse the XH A1 similarly it is Fab but Im perhaps a little less troubled by the CMOS /CCD issue as you seem to be.. I notice you tend to stick with Panasonic .. and in this case Canon .(Incidentally Canon and Pasonic use CMOS for thier Higher end cosumer camcorders now)
In truth technology has advanced enough to blur that alone as the single deal breaker but I agree the XH A1 is great

[ade4all]

was expecting such a response - i know we've discussed this before but will try to elaborate a bit more -
regards cmos, i just think it is better for people to be informed so they can make an educated choice, it does seem to be getting better but all cmos cameras will exhibit skew & problems with flash photography to some degree, just the nature of it - if someone is willing to spend £2500 on a camera then obviously they are serious about getting the best image they can & i feel it is worth pointing out that in certain situations cmos can create problems - at least if you are aware of it you can then take care not to let it affect your footage or choose a differnet type of camera. i merely advised the op to do a bit of research to see if it was something that might affect them - i think that is better advice than to keep saying sony wouldn't sell cameras if it was a problem etc. for many this is not an issue, for others it is, better to know either way before you spend a lot of money on something
my favourite camera is actually the sony ex1 which has cmos chips, it creates an amazingly sharp image but i would not use it for events where i know flash photography may be used or for a lot of handheld stuff because its a bugger to hold ergonomically & i've had skewed footage which has upset a client before - but on a tripod its hard to beat
i'm not brand loyal i just happen to prefer the pana hmc151 image over anything else i've tried in its price range, the canon xha1 the best of the hdv cameras that i have used, the sony ex1 best of the sub £6k cameras
regarding xlr i say if audio is important then you will want to use decent microphones & they use balnced xlr cables - just something i thought worth mentioning given the op has a decent budget for a camera. i see people always willing to spend what it takes to get a good image but the audio side is often neglected & to me it is at least as important - i am far more forgiving of image quality than bad sound which can easily ruin nice visuals
sorry to go off subject just trying to give some advice that the op or whoever may not be aware of - its up to them then to choose whats important for their needs/budget
tis all good - its great to have so many choices, just feel i get jumped on a bit around here if i mention cmos issues that a person may not be aware of, or suggest that there is something better out there (in my opinion) than some of the sony hdv cameras

[shezza]

Well thanks for all the feed back which has narrowed down my choice. Just another thought on editing At the moment I use a Panasonic SDR-H60 which has a hard drive and downloads all the individual clips to my computer which makes for easy assembly and editing, fades etc. via Cyberlink PowerDirector. Now what happens with Mini dv tape as per the Canon, when shooting the the film is it one continuous tape as opposed to clips and does it download as a continuous film, if so how is the editing done ie fades ect. Plus with individual clips it's easy to move them to the order that one requires,and also use two the same clips in different places? I'm sorry if it seems that I dont know a deal, but all I remember is the old type of video 8 tape where you filmed in on long length and that was it, which I dont want to go back to. So basically is the editing of the hard drive clips that I have now completley different from the Mini dv tape.

[rogs]

Excellent advice from ade4all and Senu - as always!

If it was me with £2500 to spend, I think the Panasonic HMC 151 wins hands down in that price range, at the moment.

Although there are still many fans of tape based cameras, I can't help feeling we're on the last 'lap' of tape based video, so to speak.
Even at the pro level, many broadcasters are either going, or have already gone, solid state, and lower end tape based consumer cameras are becoming increasingly rare.

Also becoming rare are cameras with CCD sensors (apart from the very high end pro kit).
For certain types of filming- weddings for example - CMOS 'rolling shutter' issues can be a real problem. This article here: CMOS Rolling Shutter lists some of the different issues arising.

The problems with editing AVCHD footage can be very real, but if you are prepared, then it's not really very difficult at all.
You either need a powerful computer - quad core typically - or you can convert the AVCHD footage into an intermediate format that's much easier to edit , and is much less demanding of computer resources. Typical intermediate formats are Cineform Neo Scene, or Canopus HQ.

I think for my £2500, I would go for the HMC 151 camera, and EDIUS Neo 2 NLE Software for editing. That way I wouldn't need to upgrade my computer, just to deal with the AVCHD footage from the camera. Not sure if the budget would quite make it though!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Just noticed that maybe it would be in budget - Panasonic are bundling Neo2 software with the AHMC151 at the moment. Obviously great minds think alike!

See here: http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/e..._objectID=3713

[shezza]

This Cmos/Rolling Shutter seems a bit of a problem!
Which of the two cameras have this feature
XH-A1 or the HMC-151?

[rogs]

Both the XH A1 and the HMC 151 have CCD sensors, so no rolling shutter issues with either camera.
I should say that most people seem have no problem with rolling shutters, you just need to be aware of the issues, and shoot accordingly.
If the kind of thing you are going to shoot is likely to be affected by rolling shutters - like videoing where there is a lot of rapid movement, or where there is likely to be lots of flash photography, as in wedding videography, you would probably be better off selecting a camera with CCD sensors.

[ade4all]

nicely summed up rogs, for filming wildlife rolling shuter will probably not be an issue - just good to be aware of - i think a decent zoom would be a more important consideration, thats why i recommended the xha1 even though i prefer the image of the hmc151. i think you can get lens adaptors which will increase the zoom but to get 1 that will not compromise the quality will cost accordingly & bring you over your budget

[senu]

Originally Posted by ade4all

was expecting such a response - i know we've discussed this before but will try to elaborate a bit more -

That is what I was hoping you would do. not flaming you at all
I didnt even mention the EX 1 which I love to bits because it isnt that pocket friendly
And No , I also dont think Tape will last for ever. I do wish the brands would stop using " exotic" proprietary solid state cards which cost an arm and a leg
Red for instance does use Bog standard CF cards

. i merely advised the op to do a bit of research to see if it was something that might affect them - i think that is better advice than to keep saying sony wouldn't sell cameras if it was a problem etc. for many this is not an issue, for others it is, better to know either way before you spend a lot of money on something
my favourite camera is actually the sony ex1 which has cmos chips, it creates an amazingly sharp image but i would not use it for events where i know flash photography may be used or for a lot of handheld stuff because its a bugger to hold ergonomically & i've had skewed footage which has upset a client before - but on a tripod its hard to beat

My point there is that Sony has been flamed for using CMOS on it but maybe the implementation of CMOS has improved enough to no longer be that worried about it
I really honestly dont mind which camera employs which sensor as long as the job ets done: Camcorders are tools at the end of the day. My personal take learn to use them and know their strengths and weaknesses

i'm not brand loyal i just happen to prefer the pana hmc151 image over anything else i've tried in its price range,

The reference to Panasonic was a bit of leg pulling.. I couldnt help being mischievous ..
I have used 2 or 3 decent Panasonic models in the past and found them very praiseworthy

the canon xha1 the best of the hdv cameras that i have used, the sony ex1 best of the sub £6k cameras

Id have to agree on that without hesitation

tis all good - its great to have so many choices, just feel i get jumped on a bit around here if i mention cmos issues that a person may not be aware of, or suggest that there is something better out there (in my opinion) than some of the sony hdv cameras

I would lighen up on that .. Nobody works for Sony here and I do value your contribtions on here even if It isnt often said
That said.. CMOS is here to stay, tape will die and I just hope we will not be pushed into a one horse race of choice.. bad for the end user..

[A n d r e w]

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment: CCD has its own technical limitations. Highlight smear, anyone?

[rogs]

That's one of the reasons I thought that Barry Green's article I linked to above: CMOS Rolling Shutter was very fair. It doesn't (like some writings I've seen) just say that CMOS is rubbish, because of the rolling shutter issues, and CCD is wonderful, it does go on to mention the vertical smear problem inherent to CCD sensors for example.

I think CMOS is likely to dominate from now on -particularly in consumer cams - but there are some specific areas where rolling shutter issues can cause problems that are difficult to overcome.
I mentioned wedding videography above - the 'partial exposure' problem can be a nightmare if you're trying to video, say, the cake cutting ceremony, with lots of photo flashes going off from the guest's still cameras.

I can see wedding videographers sticking to CCD for a while yet!

Now, a CMOS sensor with a global shutter, that will be a world beater, I suspect. I believe it's already possible, but seriously expensive at the moment. How long before it becomes common.......????

[ade4all]

barry green knows his stuff thats for sure
no worries senu i respect your experience & the need to give a balance to discussions, just having been burned by rolling shutter before, i get this little urge (am seeking help) to advise anyone thinking of buying a cmos camera to at least find out about its charactristics then make an informed decision - in the op's case its probably a non issue. i will continue to flag it up though, can't resist, always gets things goin a bit & i do love a bit of deja vu
& now that i'm familiar with the smilies, the sony thing was just me being mischievous the uk does seem to be a sony zone in the world of cameras, just here to give a shout out to the other guys

Originally Posted by senu

That said.. CMOS is here to stay, tape will die and I just hope we will not be pushed into a one horse race of choice.. bad for the end user..

amen to that,
global shutter with a sensor the size of some of these recent dslr's would be nice, maybe not too far away..........

[shezza]

Hi all and thank you all for your advice,I have finnaly decided on the Canon XHA1 and also taken your advice to actually handle one before buying Well guess what,
my local proffesional shop told me that they cannot get one unless I pay first This shop has a few branches up and down the country and they can locate me an XHA1s
Now apart from the price being about £700 more
does anyone know what the differences are.
Anything major? Zoom for example.
One of their video men asked me if I'd considered the Canon EOS 5D MK2 although a DSLR, he said it takes good video Surley not the same thing
I will keep you posted...............Pete

[senu]

Originally Posted by shezza

One of their video men asked me if I'd considered the Canon EOS 5D MK2 although a DSLR, he said it takes good video
Surley not the same thing

It is not a camcorder and is not pretending to be one even though it does do very good HD video in ideal conditions ... Naughty advice..
PS >.It uses a CMOS chip too albeit one bigger than you will find in most camcorders and the rolling shutter you get with very fast moving object is there though not as pronounced as Nikons D90
http://s3.amazonaws.com/movies.dprev...D2_Panning.MOV
Also any control limited to video is very poor considering how good a stills camera it is

[rogs]

Originally Posted by shezza

This shop has a few branches up and down the country and they can locate me an XHA1s
Now apart from the price being about £700 more
does anyone know what the differences are.
Anything major? Zoom for example.

From what I've read, like here XH A1 vs. XH A1s - The Digital Video Information Network for example, the consensus seems to be that the 's' isn't worth the extra.

I'm wondering why you decided to go with a tape camera?

Did you decide that you prefer tape to solid state, or simply because HDV is easier to edit than AVCHD? Or do you simply prefer something about the Canon over the Panasonic?

Personally, especially with the bundled Grass Valley Neo2 editing software in the deal at the moment, I would have thought the Panasonic HMC 151 represented a better deal- remembering that the Neo2 software will allow you to easily convert the footage to Canopus HQ, which is a doddle to edit,even on older computers.

[senu]

I would agree. the XHA1 is very good and the "s" is costlier for not much more IMHO
However the lure of a top notch non tape camcorder has to be very "2009"
Certainly I would persoanlly still buy an XH A1 and indeed I haved hired one once or twice but if the Panasonic doesnt cost more and the edius software comes with it it becomes very difficult to ignore
In truth he main downside is that real time capture from tape but one can learn to live with that
In short I like the XH A1 , tape or not

OTOH even if AVCHD is hard to edit now , you wil change PCs eventually. An i7 system from dell may not set you back more than £670

You dont have to have the latest and best you know..
For any special project hiring isnt very costly

[shezza]

rogs, The reason for this particular camera, is it more or less matches my budget,It has the longest lens, AVCHD? I've heard a few negatives most of all about the power of computer thats required,The last thing I want to do right now is have to upgrade my computer as well.

[senu]

[rogs]

Originally Posted by shezza

rogs, The reason for this particular camera, is it more or less matches my budget,It has the longest lens, AVCHD? I've heard a few negatives most of all about the power of computer thats required,The last thing I want to do right now is have to upgrade my computer as well.

I think I must have been looking at the Panasonic prices without VAT! As you say, the Canon is quite a bit cheaper, and with a 650mm lens (35mm equivalent ) it seems an excellent choice for your wildlife filming. You're going to need one serious tripod with a lens that long though!!

Even the 368mm lens on the Panasonic (again 35mm equivalent length) is pretty impressive, and I like the idea of 3 x CCD 1/3" sensors against the Canon's single sensor, but it is more money, and the lens isn't as long!

Regarding upgrading your computer for AVCHD - as I say, the Grass Valley Neo2 software would stop you having to do that -- converting AVCHD to Canopus HQ makes it even easier to edit than HDV.

At the end of the day, I guess the long lens on the Canon might just tip the balance- particularly for wild life video.

[shezza]

Hi rogs you mention that

"I like the idea of 3 x CCD 1/3" sensors against the Canon's single sensor, but it is more money, and the lens isn't as long!

I thought the XH-A1 had also got 3 CCD's!

[senu]

Originally Posted by shezza

Hi rogs you mention that

"I like the idea of 3 x CCD 1/3" sensors against the Canon's single sensor, but it is more money, and the lens isn't as long!

I thought the XH-A1 had also got 3 CCD's!

It does...

[shezza]

Hi all, I am trying to track down a Canon XH-A1 when I search the WEB a company called HDEW comes up with a good price, Has anyone any experience with this Co.

[Kido44]

Originally Posted by senu

That is what I was hoping you would do. not flaming you at all
I didnt even mention the EX 1 which I love to bits because it isnt that pocket friendly
And No , I also dont think Tape will last for ever. I do wish the brands would stop using " exotic" proprietary solid state cards which cost an arm and a leg
Red for instance does use Bog standard CF cards


My point there is that Sony has been flamed for using CMOS on it but maybe the implementation of CMOS has improved enough to no longer be that worried about it
I really honestly dont mind which camera employs which sensor as long as the job ets done: Camcorders are tools at the end of the day. My personal take learn to use them and know their strengths and weaknesses

The reference to Panasonic was a bit of leg pulling.. I couldnt help being mischievous ..
I have used 2 or 3 decent Panasonic models in the past and found them very praiseworthy

Id have to agree on that without hesitation

I would lighen up on that .. Nobody works for Sony here and I do value your contribtions on here even if It isnt often said
That said.. CMOS is here to stay, tape will die and I just hope we will not be pushed into a one horse race of choice.. bad for the end user..

I'm looking at buying my 1st camcorder, would the JVC Everio GZ-HD10 Camcorder be ok? I need one just for home movies and want to burn to dvd via my laptop? i have seen this one for £224, which is way cheaper than most sites.
is it any good mate?

[senu]

Check your thread
Also the " just want to burn to DVD via laptop" may be easier said han doe . if your laptop is not a recent midrange model

[chrishull3]

No one on any site that have used the FX1000 and Z5 say they have used a better low light camcorder without going up to the EX3.