HD camcorders - 60Hz (US models) vs 50Hz (UK models)

[andrewilley]

Just debating on buying a decent-spec HD camcorder, either here or from the USA (maybe the Panasonic HS300, or Sony equivalent?). The bad old days of PAL vs. NTSC now being a thing of the past as far as high-def display devices are concerned, can anyone think of a compelling technical reason to buy a UK model rather than a US one? (I would check that the power supply was multi-voltage)

It would be a hard drive model, and only used for HD recordings and probably not down-converted to standard definition. Also needs to be viewed/edited on a PC, most of which have 60Hz screens these days anyway.

Given that the pixel resolutions are the same, I can't see any real reason not to go for the better frame rates of 60i/30p/24p on a USA model vs. 50i/25p on a UK model... So have I missed considering anything important?

Andre

[A n d r e w]

There are only one and a half reasons, by my reckoning. The half reason is that 24p is only retrievable from a 60i stream if you have editing software capable of doing the pulldown and the time to do it. I say this is half a reason, because you still have 30p, which doesn't require pulldown. But to my mind, 30p and 25p are a bit pointless. 24p is where the fabled "cinema look" lies, but it's holy grail stuff most people don't have time for.

The other reason (i realise you've said you're not going to, so I'm just putting this out there for other observers of the thread) would be if you're intending to downscale to standard definition for DVD, say, to send family members or friends your videos. Not all DVD players will play both NTSC and PAL, and converting from 30fps to 25fps in software can have a degrading effect on quality.

Weigh those minor niggles up against the money you're saving and you should be in a position to make the right decision.

[glesgaguyav]

Would you buy a left hand drive car for use in the UK?

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

Higher frame rates don't produce better video IMHO.

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

As I said, in high-def terms PAL and NTSC no longer exisit, and all UK HD devices (LCD/plasma TVs, Blu-ray players, etc) will happily cope with either 50Hz or 60Hz. And PC screens are all 60Hz (or more).

So the question remains, why should I go with 50Hz just because that's what my local shop happens to have always stocked in the standard def PAL days? Apart from the one possible issue of downscaling to standard DVD (if I ever wanted to do so) I just can't see any other complelling reasons to go for 50Hz over 60Hz now. Oh, mains lighting freqencies not withstanding - but I think I shoot more in the USA than I do in the UK looking at this stack of DV tapes, LOL.

Andrew: Yes, I know what you mean about the 24p 'filmic' look, I would probably rarely use it (I assume Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 will process it if I wanted to?). However 30p might well be appealing for slow-moving, landscape type material? Oh, and if I do trascode and downscale to PAL DVD for the family, I rather doubt they'll notice the difference...

Andre

[A n d r e w]

30p might well be appealing for slow-moving, landscape type material?

Perhaps. It depends on the camcorder. On most consumer camcorders the way progressive is implemented makes it a bit of a gimmick, in my opinion. One of the few exceptions would be Canon's HDV camcorders (e.g., HV40).

A taxation rather than a technical point and one you may well be aware of: take care if you're ordering on the web and taking delivery in the UK, as there's always the chance you'll be sprung for import duties which will depressingly erode the financial benefits of buying 60Hz.

[andrewilley]

Yeah, I'm aware of the VAT/Duty issues which might be applicable (even if I bring it back myself from a trip to the states). I'm thinking more in terms of whether a US or a UK model would be technically preferable to own, rather than just the purchasing cost. I'd need to check the T&Cs of the manufacturers warantee too.

Andre

[A n d r e w]

I'm on the fence as to whether either is preferable to the other from a technical perspective. There's as much moaning about the technical limitations of consumer HD over the pond as there is here: the recording frequency doesn't seem to make much impact on that! Personally, the only reason I'd buy a US model is with the hope of saving some dough.

[yant]

Actually, some USA shops will sell you a PAL version they might even be cheaper than the local models. E.g.

HDRXR500V Sony HDR-XR500V 120GB HDD High Definition Handycam Camcorder, 1/2.88" Exmor R CMOS sensor 12x Optical/150x Digital Zoom Lens, 3.2" Touch Panel LCD,With Built-in GPS Receiver

HDRXR500E Sony HDR-XR500E "PAL" 120GB HDD High Definition Handycam Camcorder, 1/2.88" Exmor R CMOS sensor 12x Optical/150x Digital Zoom Lens, 3.2" Touch Panel LCD, with Built-in GPS Receiver

[mmace]

I see no reason to get a 50hz one.
I have one but all my footage is converted to 60hz due to Blu-ray compatability (Blu-ray only accepts 1080i at 50hz and that won't work in the US). All HD Ready TV's MUST accept 60hz signals so there is no issue

It's about time someone else said that PAL and NTSC don't exist in HD land as I've been saying it for a LONG time but no one else seems to agree!

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Would you buy a left hand drive car for use in the UK?

this is stupid, UK's HD Ready TV's MUST support 50 & 60hz so yes, you'd buy a left hand drive car if the roads allowed you to drive on either side with the majority of them driving on the right

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

NTSC and PAL aren't the HD broadcasting standards anywhere in the world. They OP is talking HD so why would he want a camera that records in PAL?

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Higher frame rates don't produce better video IMHO.

maybe not, but 60hz is compatible with all HD TVs whereas 50hz isn't.

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by mmace

It's about time someone else said that PAL and NTSC don't exist in HD land as I've been saying it for a LONG time but no one else seems to agree!

You'll find plenty of people here who agree if you dig deep enough! PAL and NTSC are standard definition video standards: that much is a given. However, as suggested in this thread, the PAL-NTSC dilemma rears its barnacled head whenever you want to make standard definition DVDs for friends and family from an HD source. At a time when people's homes are often still a mixture of SD and HD technology, the issue is still worth considering. That's the great thing about standards: there are so many to choose from . . .

[ade4all]

also worth noting that 60hz cameras can struggle with flickering image under certain lights in 50 hz frequency

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by ade4all

also worth noting that 60hz cameras can struggle with flickering image under certain lights in 50 hz frequency

Already noted in #4 above, but thanks for the reminder anyway.

Andre

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by mmace

NTSC and PAL aren't the HD broadcasting standards anywhere in the world. They OP is talking HD so why would he want a camera that records in PAL?

but 60hz is compatible with all HD TVs whereas 50hz isn't.

No matter whether it's HD or SD the standards still apply, PAL HD cams record at 25fps and NTSC record at 30fps no matter what format AVCHD or HDV the two formats don't mix and never will.

If HD broadcasting standards don't apply why do cam makers still produce PAL and NTSC cams?

You can watch both formats equally on UK HD TV's but if you ever want to edit or use the cam to it's full capability's (eg. plug it in to a DVD recorder for a quick copy) you may have problems

From my reading there's many NTSC videographers who would prefer to use PAL HD cams for the reason it's easier to achieve the film look (24p) without having to go through the pulldown process

It's only NTSC TV's that aren't compatible with 50Hz another reason why HD isn't a universal broadcast standard

Here's a link discussing the subject from the other side of the pond, check post 80
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3580

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

It's only NTSC TV's that aren't compatible with 50Hz another reason why HD isn't a universal broadcast standard

So to paraphrase, a US HD camcorder is compatible with pretty much everything HD worldwide, while a UK one won't work with many US TVs (which has largely been the case for many years, even back to tube PAL TVs). A very good reason for going with US equipment methinks.

The idea of shooting in 25p and then run-rate converting it to 24p is silly, everything would be running at the wrong speed (rather like movies do on PAL TV). Not in any way a desirable solution!

I am a little concerned that the specs for the Panasonic HS300 (US version) only include 60i and 24p - can it not do 30p too?

Andre

[Adama]

I've just bought a Japanese import Canon HF S10 and saved nearly £300! - I watch and make Bluray in 24p and 30p it plays on everything! £300!