[andrewilley]

Just debating on buying a decent-spec HD camcorder, either here or from the USA (maybe the Panasonic HS300, or Sony equivalent?). The bad old days of PAL vs. NTSC now being a thing of the past as far as high-def display devices are concerned, can anyone think of a compelling technical reason to buy a UK model rather than a US one? (I would check that the power supply was multi-voltage)

It would be a hard drive model, and only used for HD recordings and probably not down-converted to standard definition. Also needs to be viewed/edited on a PC, most of which have 60Hz screens these days anyway.

Given that the pixel resolutions are the same, I can't see any real reason not to go for the better frame rates of 60i/30p/24p on a USA model vs. 50i/25p on a UK model... So have I missed considering anything important?

Andre

[A n d r e w]

There are only one and a half reasons, by my reckoning. The half reason is that 24p is only retrievable from a 60i stream if you have editing software capable of doing the pulldown and the time to do it. I say this is half a reason, because you still have 30p, which doesn't require pulldown. But to my mind, 30p and 25p are a bit pointless. 24p is where the fabled "cinema look" lies, but it's holy grail stuff most people don't have time for.

The other reason (i realise you've said you're not going to, so I'm just putting this out there for other observers of the thread) would be if you're intending to downscale to standard definition for DVD, say, to send family members or friends your videos. Not all DVD players will play both NTSC and PAL, and converting from 30fps to 25fps in software can have a degrading effect on quality.

Weigh those minor niggles up against the money you're saving and you should be in a position to make the right decision.

[glesgaguyav]

Would you buy a left hand drive car for use in the UK?

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

Higher frame rates don't produce better video IMHO.

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

As I said, in high-def terms PAL and NTSC no longer exisit, and all UK HD devices (LCD/plasma TVs, Blu-ray players, etc) will happily cope with either 50Hz or 60Hz. And PC screens are all 60Hz (or more).

So the question remains, why should I go with 50Hz just because that's what my local shop happens to have always stocked in the standard def PAL days? Apart from the one possible issue of downscaling to standard DVD (if I ever wanted to do so) I just can't see any other complelling reasons to go for 50Hz over 60Hz now. Oh, mains lighting freqencies not withstanding - but I think I shoot more in the USA than I do in the UK looking at this stack of DV tapes, LOL.

Andrew: Yes, I know what you mean about the 24p 'filmic' look, I would probably rarely use it (I assume Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 will process it if I wanted to?). However 30p might well be appealing for slow-moving, landscape type material? Oh, and if I do trascode and downscale to PAL DVD for the family, I rather doubt they'll notice the difference...

Andre

[A n d r e w]

30p might well be appealing for slow-moving, landscape type material?

Perhaps. It depends on the camcorder. On most consumer camcorders the way progressive is implemented makes it a bit of a gimmick, in my opinion. One of the few exceptions would be Canon's HDV camcorders (e.g., HV40).

A taxation rather than a technical point and one you may well be aware of: take care if you're ordering on the web and taking delivery in the UK, as there's always the chance you'll be sprung for import duties which will depressingly erode the financial benefits of buying 60Hz.

[andrewilley]

Yeah, I'm aware of the VAT/Duty issues which might be applicable (even if I bring it back myself from a trip to the states). I'm thinking more in terms of whether a US or a UK model would be technically preferable to own, rather than just the purchasing cost. I'd need to check the T&Cs of the manufacturers warantee too.

Andre

[A n d r e w]

I'm on the fence as to whether either is preferable to the other from a technical perspective. There's as much moaning about the technical limitations of consumer HD over the pond as there is here: the recording frequency doesn't seem to make much impact on that! Personally, the only reason I'd buy a US model is with the hope of saving some dough.

[yant]

Actually, some USA shops will sell you a PAL version they might even be cheaper than the local models. E.g.

HDRXR500V Sony HDR-XR500V 120GB HDD High Definition Handycam Camcorder, 1/2.88" Exmor R CMOS sensor 12x Optical/150x Digital Zoom Lens, 3.2" Touch Panel LCD,With Built-in GPS Receiver

HDRXR500E Sony HDR-XR500E "PAL" 120GB HDD High Definition Handycam Camcorder, 1/2.88" Exmor R CMOS sensor 12x Optical/150x Digital Zoom Lens, 3.2" Touch Panel LCD, with Built-in GPS Receiver

[mmace]

I see no reason to get a 50hz one.
I have one but all my footage is converted to 60hz due to Blu-ray compatability (Blu-ray only accepts 1080i at 50hz and that won't work in the US). All HD Ready TV's MUST accept 60hz signals so there is no issue

It's about time someone else said that PAL and NTSC don't exist in HD land as I've been saying it for a LONG time but no one else seems to agree!

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Would you buy a left hand drive car for use in the UK?

this is stupid, UK's HD Ready TV's MUST support 50 & 60hz so yes, you'd buy a left hand drive car if the roads allowed you to drive on either side with the majority of them driving on the right

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

NTSC is not the broadcast standard here in the UK, if you want your footage to be fully compatible now and in the future then stick with PAL standard cams.

NTSC and PAL aren't the HD broadcasting standards anywhere in the world. They OP is talking HD so why would he want a camera that records in PAL?

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Higher frame rates don't produce better video IMHO.

maybe not, but 60hz is compatible with all HD TVs whereas 50hz isn't.

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by mmace

It's about time someone else said that PAL and NTSC don't exist in HD land as I've been saying it for a LONG time but no one else seems to agree!

You'll find plenty of people here who agree if you dig deep enough! PAL and NTSC are standard definition video standards: that much is a given. However, as suggested in this thread, the PAL-NTSC dilemma rears its barnacled head whenever you want to make standard definition DVDs for friends and family from an HD source. At a time when people's homes are often still a mixture of SD and HD technology, the issue is still worth considering. That's the great thing about standards: there are so many to choose from . . .

[ade4all]

also worth noting that 60hz cameras can struggle with flickering image under certain lights in 50 hz frequency

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by ade4all

also worth noting that 60hz cameras can struggle with flickering image under certain lights in 50 hz frequency

Already noted in #4 above, but thanks for the reminder anyway.

Andre

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by mmace

NTSC and PAL aren't the HD broadcasting standards anywhere in the world. They OP is talking HD so why would he want a camera that records in PAL?

but 60hz is compatible with all HD TVs whereas 50hz isn't.

No matter whether it's HD or SD the standards still apply, PAL HD cams record at 25fps and NTSC record at 30fps no matter what format AVCHD or HDV the two formats don't mix and never will.

If HD broadcasting standards don't apply why do cam makers still produce PAL and NTSC cams?

You can watch both formats equally on UK HD TV's but if you ever want to edit or use the cam to it's full capability's (eg. plug it in to a DVD recorder for a quick copy) you may have problems

From my reading there's many NTSC videographers who would prefer to use PAL HD cams for the reason it's easier to achieve the film look (24p) without having to go through the pulldown process

It's only NTSC TV's that aren't compatible with 50Hz another reason why HD isn't a universal broadcast standard

Here's a link discussing the subject from the other side of the pond, check post 80
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3580

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

It's only NTSC TV's that aren't compatible with 50Hz another reason why HD isn't a universal broadcast standard

So to paraphrase, a US HD camcorder is compatible with pretty much everything HD worldwide, while a UK one won't work with many US TVs (which has largely been the case for many years, even back to tube PAL TVs). A very good reason for going with US equipment methinks.

The idea of shooting in 25p and then run-rate converting it to 24p is silly, everything would be running at the wrong speed (rather like movies do on PAL TV). Not in any way a desirable solution!

I am a little concerned that the specs for the Panasonic HS300 (US version) only include 60i and 24p - can it not do 30p too?

Andre

[Adama]

I've just bought a Japanese import Canon HF S10 and saved nearly £300! - I watch and make Bluray in 24p and 30p it plays on everything! £300!

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by andrewilley

The idea of shooting in 25p and then run-rate converting it to 24p is silly, everything would be running at the wrong speed (rather like movies do on PAL TV). Not in any way a desirable solution!

Andre

Sorry, but you seem confused, PAL cams don't capture 25p they capture 24p/50i/25fps, 24p is nearer to the cine film look than 30p

NTSC cams capture at 30P/60i/30fps, to obtain the "film" look (cine film which PAL cams do almost naturally) they have to convert down, hence the "pulldown"

Did you read my link?

[ade4all]

progressive pal cams do capture 25p

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by ade4all

progressive pal cams do capture 25p

Yeah, it's me that's confused

[A n d r e w]

I've said it before and I'll say it again (once) before leaving it for good: NTSC and PAL are standard definition formats, not high defintion formats. There is no PAL or NTSC in high definition - there are different standards (60i and 50i) which are divided up along the same geographical lines, but that's it. If the boxes that camcorders are shipped in have "PAL" or "NTSC" stamped on them, then they are either referring to the fact that the composite output from the camera will be in one or the other format, or because it's a shorthand to help the consumer.

The post on the thread you linked to contains misleading information, e.g.:

"the NTSC models have a "24P film" mode in a 60i wrapper" which requires post production processing for 3:2 pull-down" to show it on a 60-field per second NTSC display.

The reason 24p video is contained in a 60i stream is because that way you don't need to do anything to the video in order to view it on an "NTSC" (he means 1080i60) television. The pull-down is only required when true 24p is sought - when, for instance, the final product is destined for celluloid.

Incidentally, 24p is only "film like" because it runs at the same rate as film, which means no frames need to be dropped in the telecine process - not because setting a camcorder to record at 24p will magically turn video into film.

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

I've said it before and I'll say it again (once) before leaving it for good: NTSC and PAL are standard definition formats, not high defintion formats.

What he said.

PAL stands for Phase Alternating Line, it's a colour encoding system developed for use with interlaced analogue video signals to reduce broadcast colour interference (which, incidentally, is why PAL TVs didn't have a tint control like NTSC ones did). In fact, it actually has nothing to do with number of scan lines or frame rates, and there were (still are as far as I know) some PAL markets which don't use the traditional British 625/50i format.

The PAL and NTSC terms have become a sloppy and incorrect shorthand for 50Hz vs 60Hz broadcast markets.


Meanwhile, back at the point, there are no UK non-pro HD camcorders which support 1920x1080/24p as far as I'm aware, but there are some which support 25p - even if it's saved in a 50i encoding format.

I personally feel that 30p would be better for possible future computer encoding purposes, as that would better match 60Hz PC LCD screens, but anything progressive (24p, 25p or 30p) which avoids de-interlacing artefacts would be fine.

Andre

[mmace]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

No matter whether it's HD or SD the standards still apply, PAL HD cams record at 25fps and NTSC record at 30fps no matter what format AVCHD or HDV the two formats don't mix and never will.

I don't have a PAL or NTSC camera, mine shoots HD only at 50i but that doesn't make it PAL

I was shot down on here 3/4 years ago by a few people who didn't believe HD 25/50 wasn't PAL, luckily it seems people are more educated these days.

[glesgaguyav]

Ok so strickly speaking the term PAL and NTSC don't apply to HD but for some of us old timers it the terms we use for 25fps and 30fps.

here's a link:


Why NTSC and PAL Still Matter With HDTV - How Digital TV and HDTV Are Linked to Analog Television Standards

[A n d r e w]

Ah, I see you've finally come to your senses!

I suppose we can let you off this time . . .

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

Ah, I see you've finally come to your senses!

I suppose we can let you off this time . . .

I hope you don't mean my opinion, I suppose in this PC world I have to use the term 50Hz instead of PAL and 60Hz instead of NTSC.

But my opinion still stands that 60Hz is not the UK broadcast standard, it is not compatible with 50Hz, it may cause problems with UK sourced equipment, it is not easy to incorporate with any 50Hz/PAL footage in video editing, if users ever upgrade in the future and choose a 50Hz cam the footage will not be compatible with the 60Hz cam.
There may also be warranty issues

Yes, I agree it can be viewed easily on any HDTV and Bluray/media player but 60Hz cams are not made for use in the UK.

I may be wrong but it's my opinion

You'll all know/be aware by now but here's a link to UK broadcasting standards.
High Definition Television (HDTV) FAQ for the UK (Sky BBC Telewest)

[ade4all]

i agree with the above - technicalities aside, if you're in 50 hz pal land buy a 50hz camera, if in 60hz ntsc buy 60hz.... why limit yourself with potential problems - the light flicker issue alone is enough for me to be put off, let alone postage & other inconvenience costs if anything goes wrong under warranty, just to save (with the present exchange rate) a few quid.

[mmace]

why limit yourself?

you are limiting yourself with 50hz, not the other way around.
What if you have family abroad?
what if you want to make a Blu-ray with 1080p footage (de-interlace 1080i or footage from 1080p camera)?
the Blu-ray spec doesn't support 1080p @ 50hz, only 1080i. If you have family abroad in 60hz areas then there's no way their equipment will allow 50hz to be played

and it's stupidly easy to mix 25/50fps with 24/30/60/23.976fps with just about ANY video editor as nearly all support multiple formats and fps on the same timeline.

and what's "this PC world" got to do with anything?
PAL and NTSC don't exist in the HD world, you could have said apples and banana's and it would have meant just as little, it's nothing to do with being PC

[andrewilley]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

But my opinion still stands that 60Hz is not the UK broadcast standard, it is not compatible with 50Hz ... it is not easy to incorporate with any 50Hz/PAL footage in video editing.

Absolutely. That's not even your opinion, it's pure fact. As you say, editing 60Hz and 50Hz material together is a big no-no if you want to maintain the highest quality and not end up with interpolated frames.

My original question was more about going 60Hz/30fps completely and forgetting 50Hz. Not particularly for UK TV compatability (although that is really a non-issue with British HD-Ready products) but in terms of PC compatability where it might be better work with progressive material that is better suited to a 60Hz environment (i.e. shooting in 30p).

Andre

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by mmace

why limit yourself?

you are limiting yourself with 50hz, not the other way around.
What if you have family abroad?
what if you want to make a Blu-ray with 1080p footage (de-interlace 1080i or footage from 1080p camera)?
the Blu-ray spec doesn't support 1080p @ 50hz, only 1080i. If you have family abroad in 60hz areas then there's no way their equipment will allow 50hz to be played

and it's stupidly easy to mix 25/50fps with 24/30/60/23.976fps with just about ANY video editor as nearly all support multiple formats and fps on the same timeline.

and what's "this PC world" got to do with anything?
PAL and NTSC don't exist in the HD world, you could have said apples and banana's and it would have meant just as little, it's nothing to do with being PC

The purpose of my posts was to point out the pitfalls (my opinions) that may become apparant when buying 60Hz HD cams from the US, the OP asked for these opinions.

If your main reason for buying is to supply family and friends abroad with footage then it could be worthwhile, but others who read these threads may get the impression that there are no problems using these cams in the UK and it's a Universal Standard.

You say it's "stupidly easy" to mix the two standards in a Video Editor, yes you can mix them in a timeline but they will be rendered at either 25fps or 30fps, in all my attempts with different programs this produces jerky video/missed frames when rendering 60Hz/30fps to 50Hz/25fps especially when there's lots of movement, is not pleasant to watch, there's no problem with resolution or colour.

As far as my "PC world" comment, I was taking Andrews point and others, that the names PAL and NTSC do not have the same meaning in the HD World but as far as the frame rates go they still have relevance as my links point out.

[senu]

Out of interest, How many of you guys actually share video with folk abroad?

Half my family( actually more like 2/3rds) Live in the US, and are often happy to have Video for PC playback sourced from UK PAL or in the case of HD 50i ( not PAL as has been pointed out)

AS for Bluray .. I can count in one hand folk I know who make Blue ray discs.. and at any rate, software will often convert 50i material to 60i to make the AVCHD discs or BD discs playable universally

This is rather a case in which the world is bending over backwards to the US " standards"

AFAIK most if not all UK DVD players and TVs play native SD NTSC video but the converse does not apply:

[symbian]

Originally Posted by Adama

I've just bought a Japanese import Canon HF S10 and saved nearly £300! - I watch and make Bluray in 24p and 30p it plays on everything! £300!

Do you have any problem with that to use it here? I might also buy one from Japan as well if that is much cheaper.