[cygnusx04]

I come from a media center background, but my dad has finally decided to ditch his VCR and go digital. He has an old 21" sony CRT with 1 scart connection. I'd originally planned to get him a PVR with twin digital tuner. But he said he wants a DVD/HD based solution so he can archive good stuff to DVD.

Having looked at the DVD/HD recorder solutions I was horrified to find they only come with 1 digital tuner and 1 analogue tuner!! ***!!! So basically in 2 years time the device will be obsolete due to the digital switch over..... sounds crazy!

What are his options? He doesn't really want multiple remote controls for lots of different devices and only has 1 SCART connection on the TV.

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by cygnusx04

I come from a media center background, but my dad has finally decided to ditch his VCR and go digital. He has an old 21" sony CRT with 1 scart connection. I'd originally planned to get him a PVR with twin digital tuner. But he said he wants a DVD/HD based solution so he can archive good stuff to DVD.

Having looked at the DVD/HD recorder solutions I was horrified to find they only come with 1 digital tuner and 1 analogue tuner!! ***!!! So basically in 2 years time the device will be obsolete due to the digital switch over..... sounds crazy!

What are his options? He doesn't really want multiple remote controls for lots of different devices and only has 1 SCART connection on the TV.

There are few options.... unless he wants to consider getting a new TV which includes an integrated digital tuner.

DVDR's always have only one digital tuner [... and those with analogue and digital tuners can still be considered as having one tuner : They cannot be used independently ]

So if he wants to stick with his current TV... but wants DVD facilities and also wants record one channel / watch another facility then the only option is to also have another digital STB.... but that means another remote.


Another option which goes to what we tend to regard as the ideal is to have both a PVR and a DVDR ... It does mean having two remotes but is very flexible in use, providing 3 recordable channels and disc playing and archiving facilities.
Obviously there is expense in that .. but it could be a phased development... Getting one machine now and another later.

[ramjet]

no dvdr has twin tuners like a pvr , so if you want twin digital tuners then you need to buy a twin tuner pvr , simple as that

the dvdr recorders on the market usually have one digital tuner inside them , and the sony and pioneer models also have a single analogue tuner as well , so any of those units will not become obsolete in 2 years time , but the analogue tuner inside them will have little use , and if you bought one now you may not couple up the analogue tuner anyway so that part may be instantly redundant right now , and the panasonic are digital only anyway

so no these units wont become obsolete , but he wont have the option of watching one freeview channel while recording another , which is why he needs an alternative system on his tv , and so the ideal solution is a freeview tv and a dvdr , with a digital tuner in each

buying a twin tuner pvr solves the above issues but does not address the fact he hasnt got a dvd player/recorder , and the lack of scarts would hold him back there too. but that is a tv issue and not these recorders at fault

1 scart is 1 scart , period

so from the above you need to decide what to do next , and the best answer is a new freeview tv with multiple inputs and a dvdr freeview recorder, but its your choice based on budget

nb:- my region changes to digital in november this year , but I can assure you that my sony x70 recorder dual tuner dvdr`s wont be obsolete when that happens , only my analogue vcr and any analogue tv`s , unless I add a freeview stb to the mix

[Geofbob]

It's always very annoying when manufacturers & suppliers don't market goods as we personally want them, but according to their own assessment of the market.* Your dad's personal wishes seem to be (a) to archive programmes etc to DVD; and (b) to retain his analogue-only, one Scart TV.

Manufacturers/suppliers probably estimate that he is a rare breed, and most people will have switched to Freeview TVs (with 2 Scarts) by the time analogue is switched off, and those who haven't will probably NOT be interested in recording to DVDs, and will be content with Freeview/Freesat recorders with 2 tuners - or won't want to record at all, and will make do with a Freeview/sat box.

One way or another, your dad will probably have to compromise, either on the archiving issue (and get a PVR) or on retaining his CRT (and get a Freeview TV & a HDD/DVD recorder with digital tuner).

*Eg I would very much like to buy white Scart leads, but they seem to be as rare as hen's teeth!

[cygnusx04]

thanks for the quick informative responses.

I agree his setup is archaic - but I suspect there are many in his boat. Not sure he is ready for TV upgrade yet.

still very suprised there isn;t a PVR (dual dig tuner) + DVD combo available.

With the current DVD recorders with 1 analog and 1 digital tuner, does this enable you to record freeview and watch channels 1-5 on analog signal?

am i right in thinking due to 1 scart limit on TV he can't have DVD recorder + seperate PVR? Wasn't sure if PVR could connect to DVD recorder in some way.

will have a chat with him - thanks again.

[ramjet]

there are no dvdr recorders on the market with twin digital tuners , be nice if there were but there arent

as for these units like mine with one of each in them , no you cannot watch one thing and record another within the unit itself , it switches between the inputs and locks the others out , so it can only watch or record freeview , or watch or record analogue , not both at the same time , and neither can any other dvdr either

there are methods of daisy chaining the scarts and pressing buttons that can allow both to be connected to your tv , and other methods like a freeview stb with rf modulator built in so he can watch a different channel on a tuned in station ( say analogue channel 6 for instance ) not as good as scart but will work , or even a scart switcher

as I said earlier , its the lack of scarts and lack of a freeview tuner in his current tv causing your problems , not the dvdr recorders on the current market

with the current dvdr,s like my sony , you wouldnt actually try to watch analogue channels on it whilst recording digital , you would use the tuner in his current tv for that option. so if you added a sky box , freesat box , virgin box , or freeview stb , all with rf outputs on the coax , you could extend the life of his tv by having alternative viewing , but you then add more boxes and more remotes , which you didnt want

so the simplest answer is a dvdr with freeview , and a newer tv with freeview , job done

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by cygnusx04

am i right in thinking due to 1 scart limit on TV he can't have DVD recorder + seperate PVR? Wasn't sure if PVR could connect to DVD recorder in some way.

To an extent it depends on the equipment used and the kind of switching employed in the DVDR unit. Automatic switching is obviously more convenient for anyone aged.

My own father has used a PVR fed through a DVDR into one scart for some years now with no problems. [ Analogue only TV]

All units are accessible anytime.

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by cygnusx04

With the current DVD recorders with 1 analog and 1 digital tuner, does this enable you to record freeview and watch channels 1-5 on analog signal?

Further clarification on this point.

He could not use the DVD recorders tuner to do this as the analogue section is never independently accessible... however he would be able to watch analogue using the TV's tuner as always , whilst the digital tuner in the DVDR was recording... but only up to the analogue switch-off of course.

[Broadz]

Originally Posted by cygnusx04

Having looked at the DVD/HD recorder solutions I was horrified to find they only come with 1 digital tuner and 1 analogue tuner!! So basically in 2 years time the device will be obsolete due to the digital switch over..... sounds crazy!

How will it be obsolete if it has a digital tuner? Surely the presence of both a digital and an analogue tuner is perfect - it will work now for somebody who can't get Freeview, and it will work in the future after the digital switch over? Isn't that the best of both worlds - far better than only having a digital tuner (meaning you can't feed anything to it via RF except Freeview, which may not yet be accessible) and far better than only having an analogue tuner (which would mean that digital TV would have to be fed to it from an external box such as a PVR, STB, Sky box, cable etc etc etc)?

What exactly are you complaining about?

[cygnusx04]

ok calm down Broadz. My lack of understanding and requirement for 2 digital tuners + DVD archive combo was why I was complaining.

thanks for the information guys. Will need to look into this furthur.

[Kevo]

I think a lot of people upgrading from a VCR set up to a PVR set up don't always understand or realise the capabilities of the hdd. Some are big enough to act as a small 'archive' in itself and are more convenient than storing stuff onto DVDs.
I think because we were so used to putting stuff onto physical, portable VHS tapes for so long but it is no longer necessary these days, rather like not having the need for hard prints of photographs any more.

I know someone who has a PVR but STILL only uses it as a secondary recording device like a VCR rather than have it as their main viewing/recording source. They would rather use the TV's built in freeview instead

[stiffmeister]

I too have been looking for a DVD/HDD recorder with twin digital tuners. A bit strange that no-one makes them.

[bxd]

Originally Posted by stiffmeister

I too have been looking for a DVD/HDD recorder with twin digital tuners. A bit strange that no-one makes them.

It's not strange at all ... the dvd recorder can only record one thing at a time and you have another tv tuner in your tv (analog or digital) to watch. That's no different from a vhs machine. With a HDD-dvd recorder you can watch something from the HDD while you are recording something else ... you'd need a second vcr to do that.

Since you can only record one thing at a time, a second tuner on a dvd recorder would be a bit pointless. OK, you could use it to "pass thru" a signal to your tv, but you're just duplicating the tuner that's already on the tv (or Freeview box) and it would be an additional expense to the manufacturer.

Brian

[Geofbob]

Originally Posted by bxd

It's not strange at all ... the dvd recorder can only record one thing at a time and you have another tv tuner in your tv (analog or digital) to watch. That's no different from a vhs machine. With a HDD-dvd recorder you can watch something from the HDD while you are recording something else ... you'd need a second vcr to do that.

Since you can only record one thing at a time, a second tuner on a dvd recorder would be a bit pointless. OK, you could use it to "pass thru" a signal to your tv, but you're just duplicating the tuner that's already on the tv (or Freeview box) and it would be an additional expense to the manufacturer.

Brian

The point I think you're missing, Brian, is that people are simply comparing HDD/DVD recorders with PVRs. On your logic, there is also no reason for putting twin tuners in PVRs either. Imo the nub of the matter is that lots of people still have non-digital TVs, and quite understandably want to watch one Freeview programme while recording another and be able to record/dub onto DVDs, without needing three pieces of equipment.

[bxd]

Hi,

I was rather making the point that people don't actually understand the difference between a PVR and a DVD-recorder. It's not a simple matter of adding another tuner ... you'd need a second encoder section as well.

Many people wouldn't understand how to operate such a device properly, so let's not overcomplicate things.

From a manufacturers point of view, it's probably not expensive to include a second tuner in a PVR. If you've only got an analog tv then a twin tuner PVR makes perfect sense as you can record one and watch another freeview channels at the same time. That 'duplicates' what you could do with your old vcr and gives you 'digital' tv on your old telly.

If you want to do anything else (play dvds/ record things from your pvr) then you need another device. If you're looking to record 3 or more things at the same time, then you're in the same (geeky) boat as the rest of us and you probably wouldn't be stuck with a single scart crt tv anyway.

Brian

[Geofbob]

Brian, Sorry but I don't see why a twin tuner HDD/DVD recorder would necessarily need two encoders, any more than older version twin tuner PVRs needed two encoders. It isn't that people like the OP want to do lots of things at the same time, simply that they want to avoid too many pieces of equipment & remotes (especially connecting them all up!) They may not even want the ability to record/dub onto DVDs, but they almost certainly want to play commercial DVDs.

Anyway, whatever our particular "wish lists" are, for the present the OP will have to accept the fact that there is no HDD/DVD recorder on the market with two tuners. Geoff

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by Geofbob

Brian, Sorry but I don't see why a twin tuner HDD/DVD recorder would necessarily need two encoders,

Hi Geoff

It would be necessary if the tuners were to be able to act independently [ and if they couldn't then obviously there is no point to them] ... because DVDR's do not record the incoming RAW stream but record and store an encoded stream.


As it happens, the next generation of HD recorders based on bluray, when they arrive, will have twin tuners because they are not bound by this limitation and will record the basic transmission stream.

[Geofbob]

Thanks for that, Gavtech, but I wonder whether the reason for there only being one tuner in HDD/DVD recorders isn't also commercial. It appears from their websites that both Sony & Panasonic have stopped making PVRs, and thus now make no twin-tuner recorders. This almost certainly boosts sales of their Freeview TVs, and ultimately will be far more profitable than putting a second tuner in the recorder. (NB I'm not intending to criticise them for this - after all, they're in business and times are hard!) Geoff

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by Geofbob

Thanks for that, Gavtech, but I wonder whether the reason for there only being one tuner in HDD/DVD recorders isn't also commercial. It appears from their websites that both Sony & Panasonic have stopped making PVRs, and thus now make no twin-tuner recorders. This almost certainly boosts sales of their Freeview TVs, and ultimately will be far more profitable than putting a second tuner in the recorder. (NB I'm not intending to criticise them for this - after all, they're in business and times are hard!) Geoff

Yes indeed. I agree.

I'm on record here as having made that point before.

It is an interesting coincidence that most of the makers of single tuner only devices also make large screen TV's... and those who produce dual tuner [PVR] units don't.

[ramjet]

there is no doubt in my mind that they could produce a dual tuner pvr with a dvd recorder incorporated into the same box , so say a "marriage" of a sony 890 and a humax 9200t , or something similar

the advantages of this are not necessarily to watch one channel and record another as your tv should be capable of doing its own tuning for watching purposes , more so when there is a clash of programmes on the tv and you want to record 2 different channels at the same time !!!

one way around it is to use 2 boxes , either a twin tuner pvr like a humax or topfield , and a sony 890 or panasonic etc

another way is to use 2 or more sony x70 , x90 , or pannys or whatever

so I have several sony x70 models and can sort out programme clashes by recording different channels on each one , and I have a humax 8000t pvr for recording too.

the ideal and holy grail is a twin tuner dvdr that behaves like the humax or topfields but can also play or record a dvd , but until blu ray appears I dont think this will happen

so forget all the why dont you , and what ifs , the fact is that such a marriage would go down well with different people for different reasons , and in some cases it would be the one box and the one tv , hopefully using one remote control , but until then its having more than one that does it for me ( at the right price of course )

[bxd]

Hi,

While I can agree with ramjet, I'm sure that most people wouldn't be able to operate the "marriage" of a dvd-recorder with a twin tuner pvr.

Such a device might require two HDD units (one for the pvr and one for the DVD-recorder side) as I'm not sure the manufacturer would want to mix the RAW stream and the encoded stream onto the one drive. (Although the Panasonic Blu-ray recorder seems to be able to mix "direct" (i.e RAW) recordings with encoded ones on a single HDD.)

The encoder would be a bit of a "bottleneck" so you'd probably be better with twin encoders (one to record directly to the HDD-DVD and another to transfer recordings from the PVR system to the HDD-DVD) to give you some recording flexibility.

Transfers between the "RAW" HDD and the "DVD-rec" HDD would be in real time, so your device would be pretty busy most of the time.

Ultimately, most manufacturers would probably find this a poor "sell" particularly when they can flog you a new tv with freeview onboard.

When I was in Japan last year, there were very few dvd players in the shops but there was a huge number of DVD-recorders instead. The major manufacturers (Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic) won't be interested in PVRs if they benefit from the scale of world wide HDD-DVD-recorder production.

You could also argue that the PVR is a product for the digital transition. Once everyone has a digital tv, you could argue that most people wouldn't need a twin tuner PVR. However, once the digital transition is over we'll all be buying Blu ray recorders anyway.

Considering the number of people who have problems with a regular dvd-recorder, I'm sure this would be a struggle for the average person to operate or understand.

Brian

[ramjet]

I think you missed my point about multiple programmes on at the same time needing two or more recording devices to record them , whilst sometimes watching a third or fourth programme , or being out or on holiday and needing more than 1 device in order to record more then 1 programme

for years I have had 3 or 4 vcr recorders to allow multiple recording , and in the last 2 to 3 years have used a humax 8000t as well as a sony 970b , and now I use the humax and also use two modified 770b , an 870b and the 970b

if we all sat down and watched one channel , or watched one channel and recorded another channel ( like we did with analogue and vcr ) I might agree with you , but the fact is that many people watch time shifted programmes and so the common practice would be to use a twin tuner pvr , a dvdr and a tv with freeview , although others would put forward the new humax hdr sat pvr , or sky plus , or virgin plus , all of which you have ignored

the fact is that you may have your tv switched off ( no matter if its a sat tv , a freeview tv or an analogue tv ) and may want to record a programme on itv and a programme on itv4 and another on bbc1 , all 2000 to 2100 pm and with no + options like on ch4 with ch4 +1. and some would want one machine to record all this , it may not happen but its what people on here keep asking for day after day

my solution was two modified 770b recorders on different command codes , and in another room a modified 770b with the humax 8000t , and the ability to fastdub on the x70`s to a +rw dvd allows watching in any room with a dvdr in it , or in my spare room on a sony vx410 combi

the debate here is not about watching tv , its about multiple recording of different programmes , like on the humax 9200t or sly plus or virgin plus , or the humax foxsat freesat hdr , using one box rather than several boxes

now add a dvd recorder to that box and that is what people are looking for , and it wouldnt have to have more than 1 hdd fitted , as the others dont

but it wont happen until the blu ray appears so its all wishful thinking

which is why most people advocate a twin tuner pvr of any of the above types of pvr , and add a dvdr recorder so you can have up to 3 or 4 recordings going and still watch something else , or be away from the tv completely and view the programmes at your leisure

these average people dont seem to have problems operating sky plus or virgin plus as well as their dvd players/recorders , a ps3 , and xbox360 , a nintendo wii , a digital tv and sundry other items like a vcr, so give them some credit

remember , this forum is not the tv forum , its the recording and media forum and so like the pvr forum its about recording tv and video , and watching it at some other point in time , or as an alternative to whatever you may be watching at the time , or to go away and leave multiple recordings happening whilst the tv is in the OFF position

[comnut]

Finally, this subject has been addressed properly!

cygnusx04, you will have to decide what your dad can afford.. and get a good way to house multiple units!
The expensive one is Sky/VM plus, to provide the fullest channel choice, with a good freeview HDD/DVDR for archiving, in case of transmission problems..

Cheaper(no subscription), is to get TWO Sonys - they are very cheap, considering the massive storage space!!! You can set up to 3 'command modes' for the remote, so you could even have 3 units happily co-existing! :

My setup has only one RGB scart, so I have Sky, Tosh hdd/dvdr(2 scarts, one for Sky), Sony HDD/DVDR, and VCR, all chained by VCR thru TV Scarts - I can watch the VCR at the end of the chain by selecting 'input' on the units..

[Geofbob]

comnut, I hope you're not being serious (though I suspect you are). Given that cygnusx04's dad currently has a small analogue CRT TV & VCR; and cygnusx04 stated at the outset that "He doesn't really want multiple remote controls for lots of different devices and only has 1 SCART connection on the TV.", I think the last thing his dad wants is 4 or 5 separate boxes attached to his TV with a spaghetti junction of cabling!

As it is, he wil possibly have to settle for a Freeview box (or PVR) and a HDD/DVD recorder attached to his TV, unless he decides either not to bother with the DVD element or to buy a Freeview TV as well as the recorder.

[comnut]

Geofbob: I'm sorry to say, that is the case, due to many in UK just not paying good money...

( 4 or 5 ?? no, just 2... 2 sony's, or a HDD/DVDR & a PVR - Sky+ is a PVR too! )

Spaghetti junction? no, just TWO scart leads.. one from the HDD/DVDR to PVR, one from that to TV..
- The 'TV/DVD' button will switch the scart over from PVR to DVD and back..

(I have an odd thing with my sky, though... once it has 'autoview' switched to a programme, it wont 'let go' of the scart! - a quick 'off/on' on the remote solves it though.. )

- There are many that have the same misunderstandings as the first post, and I'm sure IF the public would start buying, they would be confident to start making them!!

But all they seem to be interested in is getting their downloads to play on them!!!
That is the main reason Pioneer only sell a few models here, and they are not cheap... they sell well in Europe, where they will pay good money...

But do note that many recorders do have a section on the remote that can operate the TV.. SKY is the best, customer service will even help you fully set it up, so it will not only do the basic stuff, but also special functions as well! I have only 2 remotes needed for TV, sky & DVR..

You can get a lot of channels for only £16 a month, or just get a 'freesat' card.. you will have to be a bit pushy, and say you just want a 'plain' box though..

Another solution is get a 'one for all' type remote, to stop the clutter.. Maplin even do a 'big button' version for those with big fingers or bad eyes.