[IWC Dopplel]

Okay here goes ..........

First off, uncalibrated 3800 vs Oppo 983 on DVD replay

I have just spent and hour reviewing the same scene (no not irobot !!)

A film I love and very familiar with The Darjeeling Ltd. The first impression I had on Saturday night still holds true ;

Starting with video performance:

The Denon is sharper than the oppo and shows a fraction more detail. The reason I picked this film is it's very challenging but I really know it well. The colours on the Oppo are a little fuller and potentially the Oppo looks more over saturated by comparison.

Where does the Denon win :

Sharper with a touch more detail. But there is a depth to the softer Oppo image that has a draw and charm that is more filmic and appealing. The oppo looks more engaging. Very, very difficult to quantify, but to my eyes I simply prefer the image of the Oppo today. The comparison in hifi terms is musicality over detail. The Denon looks a little leaner and potentially higher gamma than the Oppo. But the over riding impression is more engagement and beauty from the Oppo. Scene 16 where the guys walk across the set to the Kinks soundtrack shows the artistic content of the scene far better on the Oppo. The depth is simply more compelling.

Talking marks out of 10 it is 9 vs 10 but more about the subtlety of the presentation. The Oppo is softer but has more image depth. This may be the different gamma settings. If it is it demonstrates the importance of calibration. I will keep you all posted here


Okay on to the audio............

Well first cut after a few glasses of wine was that the Denon was leaner and perhaps a little restricted in dynamics by comparison (ONLY digital in on DVD don't forget) This was late Saturday night

I left the player running during Sunday and Monday to burn things in a little. This appears to of improved. comparing the Denon to the Oppo there is very little between them. The Denon sounds slightly leaner and a little more detailed and the Oppo a little more fluid and warm. If I had to pick one on this film I would go for the Oppo. I suspect the Denon has a few more hours to burn the components in (I don't want to start a debate here, but IMO all new kit needs at least 30+ hours to settle down and burn in)

All in all no winners simply different on the Audio digital out on DVD. My gut on this is that using this set up on DVD the Denon will win ultimately.

In Summary:

Audio little to choose (digi out on DVD only) but the picture leaves the Oppo ahead in a very intangible way. This COULD be cailibration. I will keep you all posted

[IWC Dopplel]

Just spent another 20 minutes repeating on different scenes, the same conclusion.

[willharris10]

How much time did you spend calibrating the Oppo and how much have spent on the Denon?

Be interesting to hear your thoughts once you've set the Denon up. After all, you're not finding out what the player can do, if you haven't optimised it for your projector yet.

[IWC Dopplel]

I calibrated to the Oppo and simply set the Oppo to standard on all. I did experiement a little with sharpness and NR but I think I ended up with +1 on sharpnes on the Oppo and less on the JVC. Others run the JVC at +7 or 8 (bigger scale) I run on +2 on the JVC. Looke better than +7 on the JVC and 0 or -1 on the Oppo

The 100 is then calibrated to the Oppo. Tonight I will try and find time to pull out the eye 1 and setp them both up so they measure the same grey scale and colorimetry or as close as I can get

[tausifs]

Hi,

am I correct in thinking you are comparing NTSC (not PAL) playback ?

Could you compare PAL too ? Does the Oppo play region 2 PAL ?

The Oppo seems to be holding up very well against the Denon- interesting, because I didn't think anyone had looked at DVD playback comparison with an Oppo.

Do you know which audio DACs the Oppo uses ?

[kingfats]

The Oppo plays PAL.
Cirrus Logic DAC's.

[tausifs]

Thanks.

[HD Elvis]

Originally Posted by IWC Dopplel

I calibrated to the Oppo and simply set the Oppo to standard on all. I did experiement a little with sharpness and NR but I think I ended up with +1 on sharpnes on the Oppo and less on the JVC. Others run the JVC at +7 or 8 (bigger scale) I run on +2 on the JVC. Looke better than +7 on the JVC and 0 or -1 on the Oppo

The 100 is then calibrated to the Oppo. Tonight I will try and find time to pull out the eye 1 and setp them both up so they measure the same grey scale and colorimetry or as close as I can get

If you get time could you maybe set the 3800 up on the 428xd? Just curious

[IWC Dopplel]

Originally Posted by tausifs

Hi,

am I correct in thinking you are comparing NTSC (not PAL) playback ?

Could you compare PAL too ? Does the Oppo play region 2 PAL ?

The Oppo seems to be holding up very well against the Denon- interesting, because I didn't think anyone had looked at DVD playback comparison with an Oppo.

Do you know which audio DACs the Oppo uses ?

The disc in question was PAL

[IWC Dopplel]

Okay a little more progress ...............

I got home late last night so didn't get as much chance to play as I would like

But I did check the calibration of the DVD replay. First I checked the Oppo and made a few amendments. I paid more attention at the 10IRE and used the menu to show Delta E including luminescence.

When I was happy with the Oppo settings I plugged in the Denon and checked the calibration. Well on the grey scale the figures were identical, as close as you would get running a second test on one unit. Clearly both are set up well from the factory and the calibration applies to the JVC only (I run HMDI for video direct to the JVC)

I did not get time to check the primary and secondary colours but the RGB curves and grey scale are the same. Hmmm so where does this improvement in imag depth come form then with the softer pictured Oppo ?

I did finish the film I watched part of over the weekend on Bluray, Pineapple express. I was not impressed by the film, sorry. But the picture quality was interesting, razor sharp. But TBO the image looked a little flat and less filmic than I was hoping. I have not looked into any Denon settings yet. Anyone rate this film for PQ ?

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by IWC Dopplel

I did finish the film I watched part of over the weekend on Bluray, Pineapple express. I was not impressed by the film, sorry. But the picture quality was interesting, razor sharp. But TBO the image looked a little flat and less filmic than I was hoping. I have not looked into any Denon settings yet. Anyone rate this film for PQ ?

Pineapple express? good transfer for a comedy i thought no real "pop" as such but sharp and detailed.
All the best mate.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by IWC Dopplel

I did not get time to check the primary and secondary colours but the RGB curves and grey scale are the same. Hmmm so where does this improvement in imag depth come form then with the softer pictured Oppo ?

There's a dicussion on AVS re image enhancement and how this appears to manifest itself in some of the recent products. In the old days (still happens) enhancement usually meant adding crude halos/ringing to elements of the image to force perceived detail and add depth. The more recent products appear to change the brightness/darkness of pixels within the image to create greater contrast between some image elements at a localised level. The results is a small detail that maybe barely noticebale from the surrounding background pixels without enhancement become more noticeable creating a sense of overall image depth/more detail. However, the image using unenhanced values may be closer to encoded pixel values. It's also difficult to know what filtering and enhancing goes on by default even when we believe these settings are off.

AVI

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Originally Posted by IWC Dopplel

But TBO the image looked a little flat and less filmic than I was hoping. I have not looked into any Denon settings yet. Anyone rate this film for PQ ?

Before buying a BD I always go to Hi Def Digest as there are some truly terrible transfers out there, but if these guys recommend something I usually go with it, trouble is I now ending up buying disks like Sleeping Beauty just to see how the picture looks as its had great reviews for its transfer.

Heres what they say about Pineapple Express :-

Blu-ray Review: Pineapple Express | High-Def Digest

[IWC Dopplel]

Vipers thanks

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by vipers

Before buying a BD I always go to Hi Def Digest as there are some truly terrible transfers out there, but if these guys recommend something I usually go with it, trouble is I now ending up buying disks like Sleeping Beauty just to see how the picture looks as its had great reviews for its transfer.

Heres what they say about Pineapple Express :-

Blu-ray Review: Pineapple Express | High-Def Digest

Sleeping Beauty is a great disc. The score is superb and quality of the film in general is quite amazing for such an old film. The extras that detail what they used to do for such features and also some of the lengths they went to in the restoration were IMO actually very interesting. If the rest of the real Disney classics get the same treatment I can't wait.

[MeanDorris @ AV Aficionado]

Originally Posted by vipers

Before buying a BD I always go to Hi Def Digest as there are some truly terrible transfers out there, but if these guys recommend something I usually go with it, trouble is I now ending up buying disks like Sleeping Beauty just to see how the picture looks as its had great reviews for its transfer.

I didn't need to an excuse to buy Sleeping Beauty. Yeah, I have kids - but would have bought it anyway!

[willharris10]

God help us all.

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

It is amazing how good these old prints can look, bring on Snow White, for the wife of course

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by vipers

It is amazing how good these old prints can look, bring on Snow White, for the wife of course

For the wife yeah nice film.

[Avi]

Just to add some additional info to my earlier post re enhancement applied to create a perception of sharpness/detail here are a couple of photos based on SD DVD. It's the same image from the same player (a current reference model) however in one image the player is upscaling to 1080p in the other it's sending 576i which is upscaled to 1080p outside the player. In both shots detail enhancement setting is default.

Can you spot any difference ?

Please excuse the photos as they were taken by hand using a phone.

AVI

[Nic Rhodes]

so is that Pioneer processing?

[kingfats]

Left pic has more EE.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes

so is that Pioneer processing?

Image A (left) is the Pioneer LX91 using PAL DVD output at 1080p. Image B (right) is the same player and same material but set to output 576i and upscaled to 1080p elsewhere. This is using the LX91's "professional" display mode.

AVI

[kingfats]

Professional does add sharpening.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by kingfats

Professional does add sharpening.

I also tried Memory1 and turned all sharpness/detail settings to minimum level. It appears there is still some enhancement taking place.

AVI

[Ian_S]

What are the white pixels in the right hand one?

[Nic Rhodes]

important info I think

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

What are the white pixels in the right hand one?

Not sure but they change when using the memory1 with sharpness/detail set to soft.

AVI

[IWC Dopplel]

Interesting what is the external upscaler, looks better to me ?

[IWC Dopplel]

Back to the 3800 update

Well I have now viewed a number of titles on BR and DVD. I have continued to compare the DVD tot he Oppo. I still find the difference intriguing.

The Denon is sharper, and looks in some ways a little cleaner. The Oppo is a little softer BUT it has more depth and in comparison the Denon looks flatter. The ringing is similar on both, I have yet to play with the Denon to see if softening will help.

The Oppo looks marginally more filmic and is marginally more engaging.

Overall the Oppo is to me and others a preferable image on DVD, shame I can't have the benefit of both in one !

On to BR WOW............. I have seen lots of dems and seen BR on many occasions. However the Denon is the only player to date I have seen at home.

Here is the good news :

Greater image depth than anything I have seen at home (Even more odd that the SD is somewhat flat compared to the Oppo and even more so compared to BR). This is a quality that was very obvious at TLC using a 60" KRP Pioneer. I am looking forward to hooking up a cheap player to see a direct comparison at home.

This quality is a real sell for me. One thing I have always liked about BR is the detail, BUT on many an occasion in the dem rooms the image looks flat and digital.

The Denon at home is amazingly filmic and very very smooth. It looks like high quality 35mm film to my eyes on the right disc

I was truly in awe looking at Casino Royale. The action scenes were superb, no sense of smear or judder to my eyes. The fluidity and stability of the image coupled with the depth (on the right transfer) is very very engaging.

Another BR quality that the Denon exhibits at home is a lack of edge enhancement, it is sharp but not unrealistically so. When I look at a real life scene edges are not exaggerated and this is comparable to the Denon. There is real beauty to the presentation.

Now I have set up the analogue out and the player and new cables have had time to burn in (I don't want to start another debate, so if you don't accept that for whatever reason cables and equipment needs a number of hours to settle when new, just think of it as me waiting before passing judgement) I am very impressed with the audio side.

Compared to non HD processed through the AV8 there is an obvious increase in detail (As there is with SACD over CD in the world of 2 channel but I still prefer CD in most cases, some SACD recording to me sound strangely undynamic and a little bright) But coupled with this the weight and body to the recording is not reduced. The imaging is marginally improved (The AV8 is very good here) and there is a marginal improvement in realism.

It is also quite obvious that the recording quality on BR varies significantly. Timing and musicality is not reduced (Again a quality of the AV8). Dynamics are also very good. Certainly as good as the AV8 processing DD and DTS.

Overall a good HD recording is a genuine step forward over DTS, particularly around immersive surround scenes.

One thing I have confirmed is that using analogue out you do need the 10db lift. matching the AV8 settings for position and db adjustments on speakers (the Sonus Faber center is more sensitive than the fronts in my system) my DB meter showed perfect DB matching from all speakers at the listening position except the sub was 10db down until I lifted this with the 10db lift option.

More experimentation to do with the picture and the audio but at the moment I am very impressed with the BR picture and the audio. If I had seen the potential for the 'filmic-non digital' potential from players like this I would have ventured in to BR before waiting for disc prices to come down.

The audio is interesting as most HD sound tracks I have heard demoed before have tended towards the bright and harsh side. Maybe the higher quality audio processing was simply not available then. (I guess most dems were with sub £2k receivers)

I'll keep you all posted