[Bumtious @ TPS]

Heres the pics

All three

Pioneer LX51

Denon 1800

Denon 3800

3800 HDMI Board

3800 2 channel ananlogue DAC just can see below that, barely visible is the 7 channel analogue DAC

3800 Power supply in 2 parts, note the ferrite cores around ALL cables (on the right

3800 close up of power supply (bridge rectifier I think, ferrite cores and INTERNAL fan behind which is the video processing

The 1800 and the BDP 51 have 3 boards, power, analogue and hdmi, note the cheaper circuit boards for analogue and power, the 3800 has... well I cant see them all but I at least 10 all using higher quality componants.


The size of the HDMI output board on the Denons is huge, different part no on the 1800 to the 3800, capacitors on the top have differnt voltage values for starters.

The quality of the circuit boards are far higher than the cheaper players and every board is isolated from each other.

From the experience of our OP you start to get an idea why there is a difference in the performance of players, this type of build is similar in all av products and hifi as you go up in price.

The power supply is in 2 parts with the 3800 against a single part with the 2500.

Still think all players are the same.

B

[willharris10]

Could you do the same to a Sony 5000es as it's the main competition for the Denon on these forums and it's be interesting to learn with what level of care it's been constructed.

Thanks for showing those pictures you have. Really explains what you meant about the meat!

[Bumtious @ TPS]

Originally Posted by willharris10

Could you do the same to a Sony 5000es as it's the main competition for the Denon on these forums and it's be interesting to learn with what level of care it's been constructed.

Thanks for showing those pictures you have. Really explains what you meant about the meat!

I had one to evaluate last week but must admit did not open it up, I dont want to be accused of anything so not going into detail about findings, but lets say some people will like its performance and again in the right system will perform well.

I dont have one now, maybe someone else would be prepared to open one up, but the weight of the unit is similar to the Denon and the Pio 91 is a wopping 3Kg heavier at 13.3KG, so trying to be sensible about this you may want to consider the 5000.

When you look inside these players you can see the attention to detail and that translates to the end result you see and hear, the 2500 is well built and but there is not so much detail in the power supply and elsewhere and I suspect thats the level you will see in the 5000 based on price.

The players are priced to reflect this attention to detail and this DOES translate to the final result, heaven only knows what the Denon A1UD will be like at approx £3300.

The fact that the chipset in the Denons seems to be a cause of concern to some people, Panasonic UniPher, well, so what, I suspect Denon looked at a number of chipsets and decides they could do more with that than someone elses, but ones thing is for certain, there is shed loads more than goes into these machines and just one small, but important componant, is a UniPher.

Same meat, different sauce and garnish, totally different result.

But as the op has stated, he compared amongst other things the LX91 with the 2500 and the 3800 and the first post and subsequent posts say it all.

He went for a less expensive projector than originally planned cuz he could not justify the difference, but went for the more expensive player because he could justify the difference.

What I can sum up with for sure from my own experience is people are coming in to see, and making their decisions based on what they see and hear. Before the original shootout, the results were the same, the shootout, confirmed it and now WHF say more or less the same thing.

The thing that was interesting yesterday is at one point we blind tested and the guys correctly identified the machines and both were dead sure and dead right. (no they did not see the machine graphics)

All we have ever tried to do is tell it how it is.

But the ONLY way to really be sure is to see them for yourself somewhere properly.

[IWC Dopplel]

Thanks for all this analysis, so how did the Sony compare with its clothes on

[Blu-rayx]

Originally Posted by sdm197

The only thing I would add is that I was doing the tests using a Denon 4308, so the result may have been different on a different AV Amp.

SDM197.

Thanks for pointing this out

Regarding the LX91 sounding a bit bright,i never really liked Denon AV amps,i fined them a bit harsh at the top end for my liking.
I previously owned a Denon AV 3808 for about a year but was never really happy with it,Then the Pioneer LX81 came along,i could not believe the difference,IMHO the LX81 gave a more noticeably smoother treble and open sound

That's my pennies worth


Blu-rayx

[mattg]

I'm off to demo the 71 and 91 today. Is there a big difference in CD sound (over HDMI) and DVD playback?

I'm worried that the extra money in the 91 is for the analogue out which I'm not expecting to use.

The amp we are looking to get is this one:

Pioneer - SC-LX71 - LX Series High Definition AV Receiver with

A lot of people seem to be pairing the 91 bluray with 81 amp, is there a reason for this over the 71 amp? We don't need 2 HDMI out as we are getting the pio KRP 500m.

[Perceval]

[quote=bumtious;8620286]............ suspect thats the level you will see in the 5000 based on price. [quote]

With all respect (and I know you are an expert). Perhaps this is not a fair assumption given that the Sony is priced higher in the US and Europe than the Denon 3800?

[sdm197]

Originally Posted by Blu-rayx

Thanks for pointing this out

Regarding the LX91 sounding a bit bright,i never really liked Denon AV amps,i fined them a bit harsh at the top end for my liking.
I previously owned a Denon AV 3808 for about a year but was never really happy with it,Then the Pioneer LX81 came along,i could not believe the difference,IMHO the LX81 gave a more noticeably smoother treble and open sound

That's my pennies worth


Blu-rayx

Hi Blu-Rayx,

Yes I would say that the Pioneer may well have sounded better than it did when linked with an lx81, its possible that high end brashness would have been smoothed out.

Which really makes a very important point that you must demo these things and if possible with the combination you intend to use

But I had pretty much decided on the 4308, and the combination was so good I stuck with it. I have to agree with you that previous Denon AV Receivers could sound bright, also as a seperate issue I owned a Denon 3530 many years ago that I had a problem with so was a little reluctant to go this route. I was really leaning towards Pioneer, but after listening and looking myself the Denon (To Me Anyway) was preferable.

The problem is we all like different things, which is actually very good otherwise we would all want to marry Megan Fox again a good reason for looking and listening with your own ears and eyes.

SDM197.

[Blu-rayx]

Originally Posted by sdm197

Hi Blu-Rayx,

Yes I would say that the Pioneer may well have sounded better than it did when linked with an lx81, its possible that high end brashness would have been smoothed out.

Which really makes a very important point that you must demo these things and if possible with the combination you intend to use

But I had pretty much decided on the 4308, and the combination was so good I stuck with it. I have to agree with you that previous Denon AV Receivers could sound bright, also as a seperate issue I owned a Denon 3530 many years ago that I had a problem with so was a little reluctant to go this route. I was really leaning towards Pioneer, but after listening and looking myself the Denon (To Me Anyway) was preferable.

The problem is we all like different things, which is actually very good otherwise we would all want to marry Megan Fox again a good reason for looking and listening with your own ears and eyes.

SDM197.

Hi SDM197

I forgot to say,great review BTW

Out of curiosity,do you know what HDMI cable was used?


Blu-rayx

[sdm197]

Hi Blu Rayx,

The cable that was used was TLC's standard HDMI Cable, to say its standard is actually an injustice, its not got a fancy brand name, its just a decent quality cable terminated with HDMI's which they have made locally.

We could obviously go into a separate debate about cables, i.e. the great Monster cable thing! But I, like Steve at TLC believe that if you get cable from a decent source (Broadcast Quality) you don't have to spend the earth.

I spent some time working on behalf of Nvidia graphics, and quickly learned that with cables you cannot pull the wool over the eyes of Dell/HP etc, they will only pay what they know is market rate. This cable thing can be a big con, not saying that there are not differences, of course there are, but you do not have to spend mega money to get decent cable.

The other thing to bear in mind, is all the Hardware was using the same set up so it was fair.

Thanks for the compliment on the review

SDM197.

[Bumtious @ TPS]

Originally Posted by Blu-rayx

Hi SDM197

I forgot to say,great review BTW

Out of curiosity,do you know what HDMI cable was used?


Blu-rayx

I will add to SDM197's response, cables in the domestic market is a bit of a "game" not one we play. We are in the heart of TV land in Elstree, there is a company that provides cables to the industry right in the middle of TV land and thats where we get ours from, they are a decent grade of cable (used in the studios all around us) and have ferrite cores molded into the cable at each end with a decent connector at each end. They are not on our web site and supply them only if people need them to complement their purchases at a fair price.

Same with speaker cable, this is the same cable again used in recording studios, nothing flash, just a good cable that is resistant to external influences as possible, we ran hundreds of metres of this stuff at last years Star Wars exhibition with no issues.

[YellowSphere]

Originally Posted by bumtious

Same with speaker cable, this is the same cable again used in recording studios, nothing flash, just a good cable that is resistant to external influences as possible, we ran hundreds of metres of this stuff at last years Star Wars exhibition with no issues.

Not VanDamme is it? That's usually what I see branded on cable in recording studios I've been to. Not that I've been to anything plush mind.

[Bumtious @ TPS]

Originally Posted by YellowSphere

Not VanDamme is it? That's usually what I see branded on cable in recording studios I've been to. Not that I've been to anything plush mind.

No its unbranded, dont need to waste money printing on the damn thing.

[Moray M]

I've rescanned this thread a couple of times now and maybe I've missed it anyway, but did anyone actually confirm for sure that this testing was conducted using bitstreamed audio over the HDMI?

If it was conducted using the players internal audio decoders (non-bitstreamed), then there is, I would expect, much more scope for the players to present a "different sound".

[willharris10]

Do TLC have the Sony 5000es in stock?

I'd be very interested in coming in over the weekend and testing the Sony against the Denon 3800 on analogues. Bumtious, is it you one needs to speak to?

Been reading these threads with great interest!

Will

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by willharris10

Do TLC have the Sony 5000es in stock?

They don't sell the Sony.
All the best mate.

[willharris10]

But that's crazy, they sound like such a knowledgeable and decent store, why wouldn't they stock all the main brands? I really wanted to give them my business. Spoke to HiFi Confidential today and they were about as unhelpful as it's possible to be, no demo unit to loan, no audition in the shop, buy it or don't. Some service!

Such a shame TLC don't do it. Grrrrrrrr.

Well thanks for the update KingFats, any ideas as to who does do all three (Sony, Denon and Pioneer) in West London and has good service!

[JonStatt]

Originally Posted by willharris10

But that's crazy, they sound like such a knowledgeable and decent store, why wouldn't they stock all the main brands? I really wanted to give them my business. Spoke to HiFi Confidential today and they were about as unhelpful as it's possible to be, no demo unit to loan, no audition in the shop, buy it or don't. Some service!

Such a shame TLC don't do it. Grrrrrrrr.

Well thanks for the update KingFats, any ideas as to who does do all three (Sony, Denon and Pioneer) in West London and has good service!

I believe TLC have the same issue with Sony that a number of other shops do. Basically Sony won't let you pick and choose what you sell. You need to take a variety of products across the range and this makes it unviable for some of the shops that are more specialist.

[malcolmk]

Originally Posted by JonStatt

I believe TLC have the same issue with Sony that a number of other shops do. Basically Sony won't let you pick and choose what you sell. You need to take a variety of products across the range and this makes it unviable for some of the shops that are more specialist.

Pioneer do that too which is why I can no longer buy my AV stuff from the shop 5 minutes walk away. Locally everyone wants cheap stuff - except me!

[willharris10]

I'm feeling you mate. I'm the only person I know remotely interested in hi-fi or av. Still, at least they come to me for movie nights

[willharris10]

Bumtious, thanks for taking the time to put your findings/views down in writing. Most grateful. As you can see the kit I'm using in my signature, (X7000 are bridged and bi-amping the front pair which is overkill, but seems to work, AVC A10SE amplifying all other channels) which BluRay would be your suggestion for the quality and synergy of its multichannel analogue audio outs?

One day I'll increase the screen quality but I'm really very happy with the Sammy at the moment, and as all my discs are SD right now, a 720p screen may be more forgiving. I'm most looking forward to a sharper image and a greatly enhanced sound quality through going BluRay.

I'd be happy to test a pair of machines against each other, I'm not a person who tends to take more than 30 mins to compare, and I'd love to pop up and see your store. What would be your recommendations?

[Ian_S]

Not Bumtious,

But the only player at this point in time that offers proper bass management in player is the Denon 3800BD.

[willharris10]

My only issue with the Denon is it's price. It's a bit more than I was hoping for. And in a recession as dire as this one, I'm rather loath to spend £1400 on a player. If it came down to £1200 I'd be tempted but with the Sony at £879, it's shortfalls could be overlooked.

Still, if I heard the Denon and loved it, I guess I'd be sold. Is it any good with CDs though? I favour not having to buy a CD player, and given my amplification will be as per the AV set-up, maybe I shouldn't worry about it!

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by willharris10

My only issue with the Denon is it's price. It's a bit more than I was hoping for. And in a recession as dire as this one, I'm rather loath to spend £1400 on a player. If it came down to £1200 I'd be tempted but with the Sony at £879, it's shortfalls could be overlooked.

I can't see the price of anything much dropping to be honest... even the low-end players have all gone up in price. It's rock and hard place time, the pound has dived in value, and we import all the players. People want cheaper players but the cost is rising of imports by substantial margins to match the currency devaluation. Retailers are caught in the middle between having to pay more and customers who want to pay less.

It's not a good outlook, and I would not expect big reductions. Remaining at current pricing would seem like a result in the mess we're in.

[willharris10]

I couldn't agree with you more. Good assessment of the situation! (Though not an assessment of a good situation LOL)

[Perceval]

Looking at the Denon owners forum, it seems that their prices are going up quite dramatically.

The pre-power combo is rising from 10K to 14K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As said above I really wouldn't wait for a reduction at all.

[Getinthehole!]

Looking at current prices I got a fantastic deal on my gear.

Pull the trigger time waits for no man

Originally Posted by sdm197

Hi All,

I felt the picture was superb, the main area which I felt the 3800 was better, was that it seemed to cope with fast motion slightly better. Otherwise I would rate the 91 equal on picture. The picture on both units 91 and 3800 had an edge in the depth of the image over the LX08, the difference between the 2500 and the 3800 was harder to see. But I felt the audio was better, and the colour and depth of the image were slightly better too.

All in all the machines all produced good results, but there are subtle differences, whether they are worth the money, only the individual can decide. I walked out with the 3800, plus some other bits


SDM197.

you didn' t see a difference in picture' s colours between the 16bit (48 bit )
of pioneer lx91 and the 10bit of denon 3800 ??

[sdm197]

Originally Posted by blueno

you didn' t see a difference in picture' s colours between the 16bit (48 bit )
of pioneer lx91 and the 10bit of denon 3800 ??

To be perfectly honest no, If I had of thought the Pioneer was better overall I would have bought it, don't get me wrong both were very good, but for me the Denon was superior.

I don't necessarily buy on Spec sheets, I go by what I can see and hear, and as I said earlier I also looked at 2 projectors the JVC 750 & 350, I could see a difference between the two, and sure the spec is better on the 750, but I simply could not justify the difference in cost.

But go and take a look for yourself, you may disagree, but thats the beauty of having a demo.

Cheers

SDM197.

[Tony Lazzerini]

Originally Posted by willharris10

My only issue with the Denon is it's price. It's a bit more than I was hoping for. And in a recession as dire as this one, I'm rather loath to spend £1400 on a player. If it came down to £1200 I'd be tempted but with the Sony at £879, it's shortfalls could be overlooked.

Still, if I heard the Denon and loved it, I guess I'd be sold. Is it any good with CDs though? I favour not having to buy a CD player, and given my amplification will be as per the AV set-up, maybe I shouldn't worry about it!

Well - its has come down to nearly what you want. But hurry, because all new stock from Denon is going up 30% from February.

Tony