[lynx]

There have been some recent threads relating to copying dvds.Can i ask you to be mindful of rule 5 before posting. Thanks.
http://www.avforums.com/forum_guidelines.shtml

[Branxx]

Extract from rule 5: "We at the AV Forums do not condone piracy"!

However, you may have been to quick in removing 'Ripped DVD's ' thread as it was about backing up DVDs. This is legal activity as the software to do that is legally sold in the UK.

Check PC World SHOP or their on-line store. For example:

• Pinnacle Instant CD/DVD[/url] for £44.99, [edit: does not copy CSS protected disks]
• Pinnacle Instant Copy for £29.99 [edit: does not copy CSS protected disks]
• E-Promo Movie Jack 2 for £29.99 [edit: does not say if there is restriction]

It was not about piracy but preserving the legally owned DVD for private purpose.

Couple of months ago we had a large thread about dvdxcopy program that was alowed to proceed.

However, if this causes concern that we shall stop.

[StooMonster]

You does not own the content of a DVD; only a licence to use it in DVD format, and then only for use in home, etc., etc.

If you damage a DVD, the copyright owner will replace it for a minimal cost (postage and materials) if you can provide proof of purchase -- i.e. a damaged DVD and case -- as with games/software/music CDs/etc.

AFAIK many British/EU citizens are under the impression that you are "allowed" to make one copy of DVD/game/software/music CDs/etc for "backup" purposes; from what I understand this is USA only, and is a very grey area indeed.

All of those packages listed by Branxx will have a disclaimer saying "Do not use to copy copright material." which is their caveat to allow them to be sold. This is because it is illegal, even one copy.

IMHO AVforums are very wise to not allow discussion of stealing intellectual property, media companies have very agressive lawyers!

StooMonster

[Branxx]

"If you damage a DVD, the copyright owner will replace it for a minimal cost (postage and materials) if you can provide proof of purchase -- i.e. a damaged DVD and case -- as with games/software/music CDs/etc."

Has anyone ever used this method to get a DVD replaced?

Again, discussion was not about stilling but backing up ones own DVD's.

I also think AVForums are wise not to allow discussion about stealing copyrighted material. But this was not the case.

There is a wider issue about asking for our rights as consumers to be protected and clearly defined (not a grey area) within fair private use policy. AVForums is site where primary consumers of copyrighted work congregate in large numbers and it (within its own limits) should be a champion for consumer rights.


Moderator, if my links to PC World is questionable, please remove.

[StooMonster]

One of my friends had a scratched DVD replaced the other week, last week someone else had a PC game disk replaced when child broke it; both for cost of materials and postage (i.e. couple of quid).

I have a copy of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 and amendments (don't ask) and there is a clause about clearly-defined purposes of safety backup, but this relates to "computer software" only.

Are you allowed to backup books or magazines? Nope.

AFAIK it's a very grey area, but I'm not an Intellectual Property lawyer; I've just spent a great deal of money using their services in the past.

Fair point about consumer rights, but as copyright owners replaced damaged media without problems I don't see that there's much case for additional consumer protection.

StooMonster

[kelvin]

This is legal activity as the software to do that is legally sold in the UK

This does not necessarily mean that the activity is legal. Bear in mind that software like the one's you detail above can, and do have legitimate purposes too. Take the scenario of an individual who has copied video footage off of a digital camera to DVD - should he wish to make copies for friends/relatives/whoever - the above software would allow him to do this.

This aside, the thread in question was pulled as it was a reincarnation of a former thread which had been started by the same user regarding how to clone a DVD exactly. The former thread had been closed, leaving no option but to do the same with this one.

Discussion on piracy will be permitted in the forums, provided that the moderators are satisfied that it is not pertaining to illegitimate means.

If you wish to discuss the issue further, then please PM myself, or one of the forum moderators. Let's not discuss this particular thread anymore in this sticky please

Thanks,

K.

[Ian J]

Originally posted by StooMonster
I have a copy of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 and amendments (don't ask) and there is a clause about clearly-defined purposes of safety backup, but this relates to "computer software" only.

How can this act as it stands relate to DVD as it wasn't invented in 1988.

Aren't there laws covering unfair contract terms that are more applicable to cases like this.

My three year old son has a collection of a dozen DVDs many of which are scratched and unplayable and a backup would have been very sensible (I don't have a DVD Recorder though)

What it needs is a test case. Someone who is unemployed or a student (to get legal aid) should write to every interested party stating that he has been backing up all of the DVDs that he has bought to keep in case of damage to the originals and let's all watch the resulting farce.

Any volunteers

[StooMonster]

Originally posted by Ian J
How can this act as it stands relate to DVD as it wasn't invented in 1988.

The "and amendments" parts which are much more recent, and through phrases like "recorded media not yet invented" (paraphrasing, not quoting).

I once signed a waiver to a well-known television production company for a "talking head" interview thing, this waiver said that they owned the rights to said interview: in any medium invented or not, mechanical, electrical, optical, etc. or otherwise; in the UK, Europe, world, galaxy, known universe, unknown universe, and unknown universes (parallel worlds!); throughout time, future, present, past and any form as yet unknown (time travel!). Honestly!

Lawyers =

StooMonster

[encaser]

Now we know you to be, at the least, exaggerating Stoomonster as you used the word honestly and lawyers. Shame on you.

If it were popularised about this alleged replacement action, I wonder how soon that would disintegrate once the hoards of damaged dvds started?

I don't condone piracy. I enjoy reading the court cases against these firms in which lawyers change their attack from the obvious copyright removal to you have halitosis depending on the judge presiding. The female judges appear more aggressive for damages, funny that. Also amusing that you can murder someone and get away and stay free due to double jeopardy in the US but not copy a dvd and not be retried - I wonder if OJ's prosecution had only thought of a couple of plants. Oh well.

[StooMonster]

Originally posted by encaser
Now we know you to be, at the least, exaggerating Stoomonster as you used the word honestly and lawyers. Shame on you.

Mrs StooMonster is a lawyer of the wig wearing variety -- so I can't constantly diss them.

If it were popularised about this alleged replacement action, I wonder how soon that would disintegrate once the hoards of damaged dvds started?

Tis honest true. Although, have you noticed on latest Disney DVDs (well Treasure Planet region1) one has to "register" disc via internet to enable "free replacement in case of damage"?

Is this because of Disney's policy of deleting videos/discs to keep their content at a premium -- or is it the start of a wider trend from studios?

StooMonster

[encaser]

More likely a wider, that is continual, trend for control over ownership and 'rental' to the member of public who (hopefully in the studios greedy fixed eye) bought the rights for disc usage. Registration is a considerable fear at the moment with regard to it becoming commonplace for buyers to need to register a disc just to be able to use it. Dvd players are surfacing with net access and this would be a licencing holy grail for Hollywood. MS are making buyers of the T2 disc, set for release next month, get licencing approval to run their encoded version on a HTPC.
Disney's replacement issue will probably be an anomolie with regard to most, if not all, other studios as I really can't see all of them adding the fact. It's troublesome too for the honest consumer who is expected to keep all receipts for all dvds in case of damage - the God fearing words Tax Return come to mind.

[taimur]

If we're just buying a licence to watch a DVD when we buy a DVD, are we allowed to sell on that licence to anyone else? IOW, is it illegal to trade or sell DVD's?

Taimur

[Paul D]

Here we go again!
I didn't know there was so many "saints" around.
Piracy is the copyright owners problem not this forums.
I agree this forum should not allow "open" discussions on how pirate films etc, but we should have a more relaxed approach about any form of discussion about copying/backup.
It's just that i wonder how many of the "saints" sorry people who are saying copying DVDs is wrong, have ever made a tape recording of a "record" they own or radio program for playback in a car?
Or taped a film/program off ITV/BBC/SKY in the last few months?

There used to be loads of discussion amongst members on which were the best quality tape cassettes or video tapes. Now your not telling me that all those members used that media to make personal voice recordings or wedding videos!
No they were more likely for making the highest quality copies of their favourite records, or for taping the christmas Bond film etc!
Come on, admit it, we've all done this!

I have backup CDRs of some of my CDs for use in my cars head unit/CD Changer.
I have converted some old records to CD form as i no longer have a record deck.
The wife has a few tapes that she made by taping off the radio for use in the kitchen.
I have just started making backups of some of my "most used" DVD films, for use on my laptop.
And wait for it..... yes i even taped the simpsons from sky the other day without getting the copyright owners permission! COME LOCK ME UP!

So does the above make me a criminal?

Am i now condoning piracy?

I would class the above as "acceptable" normal use.

Now if i was making many duplicates and selling them down at the flea market, then yes i would be in breach of the law.

And just as the forums would allow discussions about the best tapes to use for making a "record" recording, then whats the difference if we discussed different ways to make stable backups of DVDs?

Flame away!

[vonhosen]

My understanding is that the recording/backing up for personal use is not the problem. Circumnavigating copy protection (however weak it is) is where you are going to be in problems.

[lynx]

@ fulabeer
Asking people to be mindfull of the rules is all that is suggested. Nothing more.

[Paul D]

lynx, the post was in no way aimed at you .

It was aimed at the people who come across all inocent when DVD copying is mentioned, but have probably been making VHS copies of TV programs for years!

It's like all the fuss over MP3 "shairing" sites.
The record companys weren't bothered about people shairing files, just how could they make money from it!

DVD films could be very cheap if the studios wanted, as the actual disc cost is very small.

But no, they decided let's charge them more than VHS.
They explain this is due to the extra content.

Then they come out with ultimate insult "Superbit".
They explain these are slightly dearer as they have a higher bit rate at the expense of the extras!

Since most DVDs now come with two discs, why not have a "Superbit" AND and extras disc?

As for comments that it's the "breaking of the copyright system" thats wrong, well were do we stand when we have multi region DVD players playing R1 discs?
These discs have copyright permission for use in Region 1 areas only?.
Terminator2s HD content being a case in point, you have to be on a american proxy to activate the film!

The best way to stop pirating is to make it uneconomical or not worth the hassle.
I tend to wait for certain films to appear on "play" etc around the tenner mark, and then buy ten at a time etc.
I only buy at £15-£20 pound when it's a "must have" film.

Now if DVDs were released at £7-£10 in the first place, i would probably buy far more films, spending more than i do at present!

[Karma]

There have been a lot of comments about copying / backing up being a "grey area".....it isn't!

It's illegal. Covered by various copyright protection acts, of varying dates.

I'll jump in both feet first. The tone of the person who refer to "the saints" - obviously sarcastically - is a bit off.

I'll nail my colours to the mast.

I don't condone any copying. If you want to play a CD in the car, then take the CD to the car!

I fervently hope that a workable copy protection system is invented soon, as I can see the film industry going the way of the music industry, where there isn't the money to develop proper talent, with a touring and musical history. All we get are quick fix, second rate, manufactured, cover artists.

Yes, I have recorded CD's onto CD. but only using an Hi Fi Audio CD player where you pay a royalty on the blank disc.

And I have also recorded music from LP onto cassette, but there again, i was one of the few who paid the annual fee to the MCPS for a licence to do so.

Copying to VHS - nope, always thought it was lousy quality and not worth the hassle. Laser Disc (remember that) came out at the same time as VHS, and there was never a problem getting material from the States. (Have you tried getting hold of The Beatles film "Let It Be" - it was available on laser in 1983)

"A saint" - no - just someone who realises that if you want something you ought to pay for it, to enable things to move forward and develop.

Sadly we are living in an age, with MP3 and music sharing sites, with people believing it is their right to copy music for free, and are not concerned about the audio quality whatsoever.

Copying = theft

And I, for one, am pleased that any references condoning it, or promoting it, are removed from this site.

As you may have guessed, this is the one topic I DO feel strongly about.

Steps off soapbox and goes to lie down in a darkened room.

Karma

Karma, say you buy a dual layer DVD film and 16 months later it refuses to play because of disc rot?

Would you go out and buy another version?

Why should I have to fork out for a replacement due to poor manufacturing?

At least if I make a single backup in case of disc rot (if) one disc fails in 100, not only is it piece of mind but some DVD's go out of print (ie Toy Story), but also saving me buying it again.

[StooMonster]

Say your DVD player refuses to play any discs after 16 months.

Would you go out and buy another version?

Why should I have to fork out for a replacement due to poor manufacturing?

At least if I steal one, incase mine fails, not only is it piece of mind but some DVD players go out of manufacture, but also saving me buying it again.

StooMonster

***?

If my DVD player does pop, I'll go and buy another one. I bought a DVD player when Region 1 only had about 100 titles, and the player was expensive. I don't mind forking out for another one.

Maybe once you get a few faulty DVD's you'll change your mind. I though DVD rot was rare, but after having two discs I would like to backup the dual layered discs.

Your comments are stupid and irreverent. When you buy software, you are paying for the licence. You are entitled to make a single backup.

And even if they change the law and make a single backup illegal- I'll still do it anyway.

If a law comes out that you must kill yourself when reaching 65 years old will you obey it?

Wasn't so long ago that Microsoft actively encouraged buyers to backup their precious floppies containing Windows, and DOS I think, as presumably the medium was so fragile that there was every chance that mishaps would result in a deluge of requests for replacements. What's changed?

[MartinImber]

I agree with copying for personal reasons but definately anti piracy.

I don't copy DVDs if one goes wrong I will complain to the producers eg Fifth Element first batch problem - and get a free replacement.

However I have no problem copying CDs to MD for the car, or doing a CD copy for my daughter who is liable to break one, or to get round non Red Book CDs (which don't play on my DVD player)

Martin,

You probably speak for 90% of the contributors to these forums, including the uniform, and that includes me.

Originally posted by CENSORED
What's changed?

Nothing. Your master is still prone to failure, and these idiots who side with the studios need a reality check.

On second thought, all these "you can't do that" crowd- go ahead and buy another copy. It's not my money.

Whilst I enjoy my backup copy in case of original failure.

It's pretty amusing when you read about Contact, Terminator disc rot problems and these fools still harp on about a single backup "it's illegal"

No wonder our country is down the spout. Political correct civil workers with less backbone than a slug.

[lynx]

Originally posted by nathan_silly
. You are entitled to make a single backup.

And even if they change the law and make a single backup illegal- I'll still do it anyway.

Nathan, before you joined the board there was a large and at times heated discussion on this subject.Someone ended up contacting some of the copyright holders (Sony etc) to get the official line on this. It appeared that it was indeed unlawfull to make even a single back up for the car, however in the scale of things the weight of the law would not be used against an individual making a back up of a couple of cd's.

[hornydragon]

Originally posted by CENSORED
Martin,

You probably speak for 90% of the contributors to these forums, including the uniform, and that includes me.

Mee too I have made compilation CD's from my liscenced CD's a large number of which wont play unless i use soft ware to remove the scratches etc on the disk I then burn to a fresh disk.Illegal but so is a lot of stuff (illegal and immoral are different!) I do hate morons who download every film, single song, etc under the sun.
THis debate has been around since home cassette records were first sold!!!! Wasn't tape supposed to be the death of the music industry???
Hasn't MP3 stopped any new bands breaking through????
NO

Live with it 4FS

[Paul D]

Karma, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. And i actually commend you for your efforts to pay for your copying.

I think you have mis-understood me. I'm not saying pirating is ok. It's the people who have jumped on people for even mentioning "backing up" DVDs.
When truth is these people don't think twice about taping/copying a CD or TV program etc.

I know you won't believe it considering my previous posts, but i absolutely refuse to copy a disc for anybody else.

I do have copies of CDs i own in the cars CD changer.
I have made compilation discs of my CDs.
I don't use MP3 yet, but may put a CD jukebox on my HTPC.

Illegal?

I don't care, as i don't consider myself a criminal as i own the original CDs. I have the rights to listen to the music only, not what media it plays from.

Borrowing CDs/DVDs to make copies of, or selling copies down the market is a different matter all together.

I hate thieves, and since the age of 8 have never intentionally stole something.
I refuse to buy stolen goods, no matter what the price.
I was brought up in a very rough part of Manchester, and trust me i got a lot of stick for my views.

I just don't like the idea of being labelled a thief, for doing something i class as fair use...


Ps
Since this is a hobby site i will not make any further comments. This is so i don't upset anybody, including myself!

[Karma]

In any debate, there are usually two extreme views, which after discussion usually leads to an acceptable, middle ground, compromise.

I just thought i'd put forward my views. Not 'cos i'm a wierd goody goody, but do have genuine reasons to fear for the demise of the film industry. (I think it's too late to save the music business)

And for the record (whether you believe it to be right or wrong) you do not own a licence to make one copy of the disc. You own the disc. Period. Your rights are clearly laid out usually at the start of the disc.

Yes, i'd love every release of DVD to be top notch quality and all be THX certified, and it ought to be mandatory for the best producers, studio equipment etc to be used for full frequency, non compressed audio recording.

However, these innovations cost, and the money has to come from somewhere.

On a more serious note, those who are suffering DVD rot should get your discs changed.

This is something that affected a swathe of CD's in the early 90's. Tracked down to a specific formulation of polycarbonate that reacted badly to air. Manufactured by Dupont Optical, the helpline is still open, whereby if you send in a disc that is suffering CD rot, they will send you a replacement, free of charge.

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer?

Not withstanding that, if you are in the UK, the consumer law is on your side. It is reasonable to assume (as decided in a test case) that a DVD should last for longer than a year, and be free of defects, and fit for it's purpose. If not you can, repeat CAN ask for a replacement from your retailer.

This of course assumes that it hasn't been used as a coaster, had sandpaper applied to it, or been nailed to a wall by some "Changing Rooms" presenter going for a glam rock, mirror finish look.

Interesting thread though!!

Karma

Karma,

You make some valid points and perhaps the example of disc rot is not a good one as I personally have yet to come across it but instances of accidental damage happen all the time. The lovely people at Techtronics modified a Pioneer DVD player for me which produced an intermittent fault whereby the blockies appeared during playback of dvd's and skipping during playback of cd's. On removal of the discs I found abrasion marks which ruined some expensive stuff. Once the mod was disabled via the remote everything was cool again. Unfortunately I hadn't made any backups and had a substantial bill for replacement when I finally found the real cause of the problem.

As far as the right of ownership of the disc goes, last time I looked Microsoft owned the software you bought, you in effect only bought a licence to use the software, at no time did you own it. That's hard to swallow at £90 or so for XP which I have to say I have needed to reload on many occasions.

There is a moral imperative here, pirating is morally wrong and highly illegal. Backing up expensive software is not imoral and arguably not illegal. Protecting an investment from costly replacement and the consequences of loss is a legal requirement when owning a motor vehicle. Crazy then that in certain circumstances proactive measures to avoid those costs should be considered illegal when it comes to our valuable dvd and cd collections.

[Branxx]

Nathan, before you joined the board there was a large and at times heated discussion on this subject. Someone ended up contacting some of the copyright holders (Sony etc) to get the official line on this. It appeared that it was indeed unlawfull to make even a single back up for the car, however in the scale of things the weight of the law would not be used against an individual making a back up of a couple of cd's.

Lynx,

You are referring to the thread look at this: dvdxcopy. I was the person who actually contacted the records company to ask them if it is OK to copy the CD for personal use.

However, your recollection is incorrect. When we buy CD/DVD/MC/etc. record companies would grant us the license for ‘personal use’. Within that license most companies will include right to make copies to personal use (for example Sony and Virgin).

I have recently contacted EMI via e-mail with the same question but they never replied.

In conclusion, we are licensed to enjoy the music any way we like as long as it is within personal/private use. Any other use requires additional license.

It would be extremelly counter intuitive is Sony is at the same time selling portable MP3/MiniDisc players as well as CD's and is insisting that their own CD cannot be copies to their own MP3 player!

What we need is to get a list a all those record companies that include 'fair personal use' license with the original purchase and those who insist on additional authorisation.