[nero0410]

As title

Not a mistake 1080i is what I want to upscale to (highest my tv and projector can take)
I would like to achieve this via component (if possible)

MY budget is around £40-50, I would preferably like to buy online, and do not mind if it is second hand.

divx capability is a bonus but not essentional, must have optical out.

Please advise as I'd like to try to get one before christmas

Thanks

tris

EDIT:

My current player is the Pioneer 575A which has 576p but I'm not sure what the interlace is (1080i or not)

I guess I would have to be looking for aplayer that does 720p?

again please advise

[Liam @ Prog AV]

THe 575a has very good film deinterlacing to 576p.

Upscaling DOES NOT IMPROVE A PICTURE.

If your display is anything other than 576p resolution then it will down or upscale from 576p to whatever it's resolution is (e.g. 1366x768, 1280x720). The key is to find a DVD player that can do this process better than your display already can.

Whatever the matter, upscaling an image softens detail. Often the upscaling chip will add "edge enhancement" to try and balance this out. Unfortunately edge enhancement in itself is also an artefact! So, you must try to use the better upscaling solution, but really you only want to upscale at one point.

Unfortunately with LCDs and Plasmas, they all tend to be 1024x768 or 1366x768. So if you have a DVD which upscales to 720p, the plasma must upscale again to 768. In many cases, you would actually have been better off just leaving the DVD player at 576p.

1080i is an even worse idea!!! Because it is 1080i (not "p") the TV must deinterlace the signal all over again! So you are getting

576i to 576p deinterlacing in the DVD player
576p to 1080i reinterlacing, and scaling in the DVD player
1080i deinterlacing in the display
1080p down to whatever downscaling in the display

This loses quite some detail, and also is the highest risk of gaining deinterlacing artefacts such as resolution pumping, jaggies, detail loss, combing.

Long story short, for 50 quid I'd keep the 575!!

[badbob]

The picture from the Oppo 981 in 480p/576p was superior to that of 720p/1080i into a 50" Pioneer plasma (720p) Only one scaling process.

However on my Samsung 1080p, the picture is best at 1080p on the Oppo. At 480p/576p it's more blurry and lacking detail. I guess the Oppo de-interlacer/scaler is of higher quality than the Samsung. Only one scaling process.

On both displays, if sending 720p/1080i there's either upscaling, or downscaling involved.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

That would certainly mirror my experience - the PIoneer screens have excellent upscaling abilities, the Samsungs the complete opposite!

[groof]

El cheapo dvd player here

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...nd%2Bvideo.htm

[nero0410]

Liam @ Prog AV

Thanks for the in depth advice ( that even I can understand), so even if I did get a player with HDMI (for use with just the projector, a sharp xvz 3000) and set it to 720p, I would have no difference in image quality?

Is there anything above the pioneer thqat would improve on the picture quality? (although I think the pioneer is very good)

Originally Posted by groof

El cheapo dvd player here

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...nd%2Bvideo.htm

Cheers bud, I had a look at that this afternoon as it caught my eye. I thought about it as I would have only used that with my projector, but it doesnt have an optical out for the sound just a coaxal (which would require me investing in a coaxal cable of about 7.5-10m)

Out of interest, does anyone have any expierance with this player? divx maybe? (I know argos doesnt always list all the features)
As the last wharfedale I had was from ebuyer and it was great for quite a while, but the decided to start pausing/stuttering all most the time

tris

[TommyVecetti]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

THe 575a has very good film deinterlacing to 576p.

Upscaling DOES NOT IMPROVE A PICTURE.

If your display is anything other than 576p resolution then it will down or upscale from 576p to whatever it's resolution is (e.g. 1366x768, 1280x720). The key is to find a DVD player that can do this process better than your display already can.

Whatever the matter, upscaling an image softens detail. Often the upscaling chip will add "edge enhancement" to try and balance this out. Unfortunately edge enhancement in itself is also an artefact! So, you must try to use the better upscaling solution, but really you only want to upscale at one point.

Unfortunately with LCDs and Plasmas, they all tend to be 1024x768 or 1366x768. So if you have a DVD which upscales to 720p, the plasma must upscale again to 768. In many cases, you would actually have been better off just leaving the DVD player at 576p.

1080i is an even worse idea!!! Because it is 1080i (not "p") the TV must deinterlace the signal all over again! So you are getting

576i to 576p deinterlacing in the DVD player
576p to 1080i reinterlacing, and scaling in the DVD player
1080i deinterlacing in the display
1080p down to whatever downscaling in the display

This loses quite some detail, and also is the highest risk of gaining deinterlacing artefacts such as resolution pumping, jaggies, detail loss, combing.

Long story short, for 50 quid I'd keep the 575!!

None of what you say here tends to apply to my Denon player, where the picture becomes more detailed with each step up in resolution setting. If any artifacts are being introduced along the way, they are hardly noticeable and infinitely more preferable to letting my display do all the work.

[depot]

How about a cheap (maybe second hand) toshiba e1. Mine gives very good scaling at 1080i to a 42" plasma.
But only region 2

[Crocodile JD]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

THe 575a has very good film deinterlacing to 576p.

Upscaling DOES NOT IMPROVE A PICTURE.

If your display is anything other than 576p resolution then it will down or upscale from 576p to whatever it's resolution is (e.g. 1366x768, 1280x720). The key is to find a DVD player that can do this process better than your display already can.

Whatever the matter, upscaling an image softens detail. Often the upscaling chip will add "edge enhancement" to try and balance this out. Unfortunately edge enhancement in itself is also an artefact! So, you must try to use the better upscaling solution, but really you only want to upscale at one point.

Unfortunately with LCDs and Plasmas, they all tend to be 1024x768 or 1366x768. So if you have a DVD which upscales to 720p, the plasma must upscale again to 768. In many cases, you would actually have been better off just leaving the DVD player at 576p.

1080i is an even worse idea!!! Because it is 1080i (not "p") the TV must deinterlace the signal all over again! So you are getting

576i to 576p deinterlacing in the DVD player
576p to 1080i reinterlacing, and scaling in the DVD player
1080i deinterlacing in the display
1080p down to whatever downscaling in the display

This loses quite some detail, and also is the highest risk of gaining deinterlacing artefacts such as resolution pumping, jaggies, detail loss, combing.

Long story short, for 50 quid I'd keep the 575!!

nero0410 sorry to jump in but I like to ask Liam's advice on a similar upgrade matter if i may.

I have a Benq w100 PJ which is only 854x480. I currently connect via component Progressive 480p or 576p from a Yamaha s550 player but I want to connect using HDMI out, which the player doesn't have, to the DVI in on my PJ as I have heard on here from other w100 owners that this gives the best image (as does the manual). Again the question is what would be the best value for money DVD player to achieve this? Obviously from what Liam has said I don't need to do much (if any upscaling). I don't have any DVD-A or SACD discs although I would give it a go if the player had it but it is not essential. I do however want good DD/DTS and CD play back.

Can you suggest any good buys Liam. I don't mind considering a second hand bargain either BTW. I just want something that eeks out the best in my PJ for a while longer whilst I wait for HD to settle down a bit more.

Thanks Croc

[nero0410]

Originally Posted by Crocodile JD

nero0410 sorry to jump in but I like to ask Liam's advice on a similar upgrade matter if i may.

Thanks Croc

NP

Liam @ Prog AV

Thanks for the in depth advice ( that even I can understand), so even if I did get a player with HDMI (for use with just the projector, a sharp xvz 3000) and set it to 720p, I would have no difference in image quality?

Is there anything above the pioneer that would improve on the picture quality of my Pioneer? (say up to about £60 new or second hand) (although I think the pioneer is very good, I'm just getting fussy)

Or should I go back to my HTPC? (only the cpu fan noise that stopped me from using it, due to the low centre/too loud when in big action scenes as complained about with most av recievers)

tris

[TommyVecetti]

Originally Posted by nero0410

Thanks for the in depth advice ( that even I can understand), so even if I did get a player with HDMI (for use with just the projector, a sharp xvz 3000) and set it to 720p, I would have no difference in image quality?

Is there anything above the pioneer that would improve on the picture quality of my Pioneer? (say up to about £60 new or second hand) (although I think the pioneer is very good, I'm just getting fussy)

Yes there are DVDs players that will give you a better picture outputting at 720p or higher, but you will have to spend more than £60. You'll probably be looking to start at the £200 price point.

[BISHI]

Before I got my hdxe1 I bought the SONY DVPNS76H upscaling player for about £70. I was incredibly surprised at the improvement in quality over the previous Cambridge Audio progressive scan machine it replaced. It is now attatched to our HD bravia TV (its a couple of yrs old now) and it does produce a superb image ( not as good as the hdxe1 upscaler but it is a fifth of the price). I don't know if SONY still make this model or whether there is a more up to date equivalent but if your budget is less than £100 I would highly recommend this 1080i upscaling machine. Also be aware that it does not come with a HDMI cable that you will need to use the upscaling capabilities but you can now get these fairly cheaply. Good luck

[BISHI]

Forgot to mention that this is usually a single region machine but a hack is available and you will need a 4 in one remote to unlock it (I used a Kameleon)

[Crocodile JD]

Originally Posted by BISHI

Forgot to mention that this is usually a single region machine but a hack is available and you will need a 4 in one remote to unlock it (I used a Kameleon)

Unfortunately I don't have

[BrianPK]

Originally Posted by nero0410

As title

Not a mistake 1080i is what I want to upscale to (highest my tv and projector can take)
I would like to achieve this via component (if possible)

MY budget is around £40-50, I would preferably like to buy online, and do not mind if it is second hand.

divx capability is a bonus but not essentional, must have optical out.

Please advise as I'd like to try to get one before christmas

Thanks

tris

EDIT:

My current player is the Pioneer 575A which has 576p but I'm not sure what the interlace is (1080i or not)

I guess I would have to be looking for aplayer that does 720p?

again please advise

Don't wish to start an argument but as
I have reported on a no. of occasions here ,my experience with my Pana. 42PX60 1080i Plasma and my Pioneer 575a was that an upgrade to the Tosh.370E £50 approx., gave me a substantial boost to picture quality when upscaling.

[nicknj72]

My set up is;

TV: Panasonic PX70B
DVD: Pioneer 575
AMP: Denon AVC-A10SE
Speakers: Mission 773E

I was contemplating replacing my DVD, as i thought the picture was a bit soft - i was using RGB Scart at the time. After going into Sound and Vision (Farnworth), on Friday, they advised that upscalers were extremely over-rated, and that Component connection and using Progressive as the output would improve things considerably.

I bought the connectors and i'll give them their due, the picture is a hell of a lot better. If you haven't tried doing this, i'd do it before spending cash on another DVD player.

Sound and Vision did also recommend the move upto HD-DVD (Toshiba @ £170), but i didn't want to venture that way for the moment, as i don't want to buy a lame duck (if Blu-ray wins).

My advice - for the cash you are suggesting, stick with the DVD and purchase some component leads !

Cheers,
Nick

[nicknj72]

Brian - Whilst you had your Pioneer, did you try component ? I'm just curious as to how much improvement can still be made ?

Thanks,
Nick

[nero0410]

Originally Posted by nicknj72

My set up is;

TV: Panasonic PX70B
DVD: Pioneer 575
AMP: Denon AVC-A10SE
Speakers: Mission 773E

I was contemplating replacing my DVD, as i thought the picture was a bit soft - i was using RGB Scart at the time. After going into Sound and Vision (Farnworth), on Friday, they advised that upscalers were extremely over-rated, and that Component connection and using Progressive as the output would improve things considerably.

I bought the connectors and i'll give them their due, the picture is a hell of a lot better. If you haven't tried doing this, i'd do it before spending cash on another DVD player.

Sound and Vision did also recommend the move upto HD-DVD (Toshiba @ £170), but i didn't want to venture that way for the moment, as i don't want to buy a lame duck (if Blu-ray wins).

My advice - for the cash you are suggesting, stick with the DVD and purchase some component leads !

Cheers,
Nick

Thanks for the advice.

I am using a component connection to my LCD (samsung 32" somthing or another, and projector, sharp xvz3000)

I guess I'm being a bit fussy. Connecting by scart is very soft, which is why I opted for component. I was thinking of upgrading to try to match the kind of picture of my HTPC, but it seems that I might have to spend out a fair bit for that kind of improvement.
As for HD/bluray, I dont really want to jump on any of those bandwagons yet (if at all),as I would end up wanting to re buy all my fave films on that format, which would cost a bomb compared to paying only a £3-10 for a standard dvd.
It seems as though hd/bluray is just a jump for making that format look on a lcd/projector as a sd dvd did on a normal tv when first released. (just my opinion)

tris

[BrianPK]

Well that's the problem I had with the Pio.575 .....vey soft picture and lacking detail with scart and component( actually thought scart was marginally better).
The acid test is this; Ask yourself if you have a very good satisfying picture when watching your best dvds.If the answer is yes then upscaling budget players are a waste of money.If the answer is no then ,in my experience, a £50 upscaler will probably sharpen up and bring out the detail of the dvd much more than a 4 or 5 year old non HDMI player.

Of course one other thing ought to be considered,namely the merits of your flatscreen connections.From my reading of threads some technical people think that component and HDMI connections vary in quality on tvs and players and this may account for some people swearing by component and others(like me) prefering HDMI.

[tricky1974]

Hi Nero i've a Panny s52 region free (don't use it anymore)and a Marantz DV7600 and into my panny pv500 plasma it can hold its own with it i'll sell for £60 inc,if you fancy it i'll start a for sale thread,(and post pic's)i tried it against a panny s53 and the s52's better,I just don't use it any more LMK

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Sorry guys I really can't speak for every model DVD and model TV there is as I just don't have enough experience!!

On the Panny plasma comment - the Panasonics are pretty naff at film detection for PAL. So using progressive scan component rather than RGB scart (which is interlaced) could very easily give you immediate improvements.

The chap with the Benq - you only have 480 line resolution so upscaling gives you nothing. In fact worse, it will damage the image some as it will be scaled up (lossy) only to be scaled down again.

Nero - your 720p projector would be nicely matched to a 720p DVD player. All you need to do is go for a DVD player which is going to do this upscaling better than your projector would. So the El Cheapo from Argos isn't likely to be it!!!! I've got to say though, the upscaling in the Toshiba HD DVD players isn't half bad you know. Great excuse to get a HD-DVD player while you're at it!

Also second that comment on the budget Sony 76. Good little upscaler in that one.

Final point - any who suggests otherwise will have to agree to disagree.... I cannot understand how 1080i can possibly look better than all the other options. The only way I can see it, is that different noise reduction and filtering options can be being activiated when the display sees a new resolution. Best way to compare is to make sure for each different resolution setting that you have gone back through all the other settings and re-set blacks, whites, colour, sharpness etc. Unfortunately in some cases the TV won't give you the option to adjust these settings. It will just go ahead and do it!!!

[Crocodile JD]

The chap with the Benq - you only have 480 line resolution so upscaling gives you nothing. In fact worse, it will damage the image some as it will be scaled up (lossy) only to be scaled down again.

Hi Liam that's me, thanks for the reply. I realise the limitations of the projector. What I ment to say is that since I don't need to upscale (although I might eventually) I was after recomendations for bargain players that have good HDMI output/deinterlacing but that might due to the upscaling race be regarded as "old spec" already.

Croc

Originally Posted by nero0410

Liam @ Prog AV

Thanks for the in depth advice ( that even I can understand), so even if I did get a player with HDMI (for use with just the projector, a sharp xvz 3000) and set it to 720p, I would have no difference in image quality?

Is there anything above the pioneer thqat would improve on the picture quality? (although I think the pioneer is very good)



Cheers bud, I had a look at that this afternoon as it caught my eye. I thought about it as I would have only used that with my projector, but it doesnt have an optical out for the sound just a coaxal (which would require me investing in a coaxal cable of about 7.5-10m)

Out of interest, does anyone have any expierance with this player? divx maybe? (I know argos doesnt always list all the features)
As the last wharfedale I had was from ebuyer and it was great for quite a while, but the decided to start pausing/stuttering all most the time

tris

hi i have the wharfedale 3210hdmi £25 from argos .its not divx ,but nocks spots off the toshiba sd370 which i took back as picture kept freezeing . ive got a plasma 1024x768 and picture is at least 5 times better yours skin

I was the manufcturer abt DVD serires . If we sell to Tesco or Dixon abt HDMI DVD player , we just give them @US$35.00 . Which is true HDMI 1080P output . Actually if you want to wathch Hign defination DVD moives , You have a 42" TV at least . HDMI DVD player just upsaling the moives to 1080P . So for the better View Enjoyment , you'd better choose the HD DVD moives .

condering ur budget , you ;d better buy the second-hand one or not the famous brand

[nero0410]

Originally Posted by skin

hi i have the wharfedale 3210hdmi £25 from argos .its not divx ,but nocks spots off the toshiba sd370 which i took back as picture kept freezeing . ive got a plasma 1024x768 and picture is at least 5 times better yours skin

I did try the wharfedale from argos, and imoh through 720p on my samsung lcd and sharp projector, it was like watching a slowly vibrating bowl of fruit with a hint of lemon juice compared to my pioneer.

I think i may be sticking to my pioneer till I manage to silent my HTPC a bit more.
Again thanks for all the advice guys, and I hope this thread helps others too

tris

[Crocodile JD]

I borrowed my brother's Denon DVD 1920 last night and used in conjunction with my Benq w100 PJ via HDMI (480p/576p) and it blew me away. I never realised how much more the projector had to give until now. Previously I'd been using a HK2550 via component until it went t*ts up and laterly I've been using a Yamaha s550 (I got given it) also via component. I thought it was ok for a stop gap but I can see now that it had seriously lowered my expectations.

I would go with the Tosh EP35 if the SD multiregion issue was resolved but seeing the Denon last night made me realise that I would be happy to sit on the HD fence for some time. I'm gonna go with Denon, 1920 if I can get one cheap (didn't get any lip sync and if I saw macroblocking I don't know it) or a1930 if I can get one at a reasonable price or a 1940 if I have to but somethings going to give before xmas.

I'm off to the wanted thread

Croc