Poor contrast with Philips 963SA

Jonny1973 · 25-01-2003, 8:12 PM

Is anyone else disappointed with the contrast from their Philips 963SA?

Watching DVDs on TV, the contrast is fine but watching on a projector (via PS component) gives a very unvibrant pic. DVDs like Monsters Inc are fine but dark films are very drab looking.

When using component most of the colour settings are disabled except for gamma but this either gives great black but no shadow detail or shadow detail but rubbish blacks and rubbish skintones.

Looks like the Pro-V might get some work after all.

It's a shame because the pic is nice and sharp if it wasn't so dull. Just updated to the new firmware but its no better.

Timh · 26-01-2003, 12:19 AM

Hi Jonny

Have you calibrated your projector? you could use the THX Optimode which is available on all the Star Wars disc's, it may just want the Contrast and Brightness cranking up slightly.
Are you using the Hoya FLD filter? this will help with dark films, slightly.

I was watching the Mummy Returns (R2) recently and noticed how bad the shaddow detail was in the dark scene's, I had to adjust the PJ settings for pal to match the NTSC one's, because I calibrated with a R1 disc.
This seemed to help quite a lot.

Jonny1973 · 26-01-2003, 12:25 AM

Hi Tim,

I used to use a hoya filter but don't any more. The AE100 just isn't bright enough.

Jonny1973 · 26-01-2003, 1:38 AM

Skin tones are awful. Eveyone looks pink rather than flesh colour and using component, there are no colour changes you can make.

To make things worse, in component mode i can't adjust colours on my AE100 only the tint/hue.

I'm afraid that buying after hearing the recomendations of others on here has backfired on me.

I'm wishing I got my Sony 735 repaired now. :-(

Jonny1973 · 26-01-2003, 3:01 AM

I think i'll go back to my HCPC.

Rookies · 26-01-2003, 3:08 AM

Why not send the DVD player back and say you not happy with it? Or is it not possible?

Then get a new sony DVD player. My mate got the Sony 735 like you had and he never ever had a problem with his. I remeber you saying you had there error code on your dvd player unless I am getting you mixed up with somone else. But my mate had his 735 for more than 2 years now he says and he never ever had a problem.

I am still thinking of getting a Sony 905. But my pioneer 636 is still doing very well at the moment.

Timh · 26-01-2003, 3:50 AM

Quote:

Looks like the Pro-V might get some work after all

I was surprised to read this, I also have the ProV and I find it very poor in comparison to my Toshiba sd-510 in interlaced and progressive.
I think Richard Plumb also has the 963 with the AE100, maybe you could ask him what his opinion is, like you said though, the AE100 is limeted in its adjustments via componant

*MartinCo* · 26-01-2003, 5:22 AM

Jonny1973 - if you were watching NTSC dvds with the problems, did you try altering the black level settings at all on the 963?

magking · 26-01-2003, 5:22 PM

You could get one of these and use the VGA input on the Panny, that way you can adjust the colors on the Panny.

I belive Gordon, Convergent AV can get you that converter.

I use this with my Panny with a Hoya FLD filter with great results, but I use the Denon DVD3800.

Timh · 26-01-2003, 10:09 PM

Magking

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you cannot get 625p via the VGA port on the AE100, with the Key Digital.

*MartinCo* · 26-01-2003, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny1973
Skin tones are awful. Eveyone looks pink rather than flesh colour and using component, there are no colour changes you can make.

are there no colour or contrast changes you can make whilst in progressive mode then?
according to the 963 manual there should be DCDi and True Life adjustments at least.. (which affect gamma, contrast & other areas).

magking · 26-01-2003, 11:22 PM

Timh

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you cannot get 625p via the VGA port on the AE100, with the Key Digital.

You're correct, PAL-P is shown as SVGA.
There are two solutions to this, watch it as SVGA.
Or set the DVDplayer to output NTSC only.

I use SVGA, but can't see much difference between the two and I have something like 80% NTSC movies.

WSquared · 26-01-2003, 11:56 PM

You can adjust the colour settings in the 963 if your PJ wont allow you to while using the component input. Go to the 963's Video setup menu, then into "Colour settings" select "Personal Colour". You can then go into "Personal Colour" and adjust Saturation, Brightness, & contrast. You should use Personal Colours and you should either zero it out and tweak the color, brightness, etc on your projector... or tweak the settings on the 963 if your PJ wont let you.

In order to get optimum contrast for PAL material and NTSC material, you should set up your cinema using test discs in those formats. One memory for PAL, another for NTSC. The reason is that "black" in NTSC is 7.5IRE(not completely black) while in PAL it is 0IRE(theoretically no light). As TimH mentioned, you can use the THX video setup on Starwars. Most people reading this thread will have Starwars. If you also have a R1 THX disc, use it to set up a NTSC memory on your projector. Oh, and make sure you use that memory when you watch a NTSC film.

BTW, the Black Level shift is used while calibrating contrast in NTSC with pluge test patterns that pass "below black" in NTSC(lower than 7.5 IRE).

When fully calibrated, the contrast from the 963 looks quite good in my system. But, it does take some work.
Cheers,

Gordon @ Convergent AV · 27-01-2003, 12:57 AM

You should make the adjustments in the DVD player first as it's quite likely that the factory settings are not accurate. If the black or white levels are being crushed/clipped or if the component video decodoing is innacurate coming out of the player, you are not going to be able to fix it at the projector.

I have not had time to play with one of these so can't comment on possible accurate settings. Wsquared is the man for that.

Gordon

Jonny1973 · 27-01-2003, 3:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MartinCo
are there no colour or contrast changes you can make whilst in progressive mode then?
according to the 963 manual there should be DCDi and True Life adjustments at least.. (which affect gamma, contrast & other areas).

The personal colour settings are for S-Video they have no effect in Component.

DCDi is either on or off and makes little difference. It supposed to be for slow-mo shots. It removes jaggies.

True Life to adds edge enhancement and artifacts.

Gamma improves the blacks at the expense of the whites (and the vibrance of all colours).

Black level shift only has on or off. In the manual it mentions lots of black level settings but i only see on or off. It doesn't make much difference.

The only way i have found to get good black and vibrant colours is through the Pro-V. Kinda defeats the point of having the Faroudja chip. Isn't as clean and has more artifacts with the Pro-V.

Jonny1973 · 27-01-2003, 3:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSquared
You can adjust the colour settings in the 963 if your PJ wont allow you to while using the component input. Go to the 963's Video setup menu, then into "Colour settings" select "Personal Colour". You can then go into "Personal Colour" and adjust Saturation, Brightness, & contrast.

Hi WSquared,

The personal colour settings are for S-Video, they don't do anything in Component Prog. Scan.

*MartinCo* · 27-01-2003, 5:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny1973
The personal colour settings are for S-Video they have no effect in Component.

never said it did, its all disabled on component out.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny1973
DCDi is either on or off and makes little difference. It supposed to be for slow-mo shots. It removes jaggies.
True Life to adds edge enhancement and artifacts.

someone will probably correct me, but isnt' the DCDi function just for de-interlacing video material and nothing else?...

I've seen truelife causing problems for others though so no suprise there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonny1973
Gamma improves the blacks at the expense of the whites (and the vibrance of all colours).

Black level shift only has on or off. In the manual it mentions lots of black level settings but i only see on or off. It doesn't make much difference.

yes, its already been mentioned that the black level settings are incorrect in the manual, only on/off, not 3 separate settings... these settings will only affect NTSC dvds though - nothing else, but would definitely make a difference.

surprised the gamma settings didn't help though.

jonny, what region discs did you use to test and try calibrating your pj?

you mention having control of just hue and tint, was this only in NTSC mode or do you get more options on PAL 625p?

Jonny1973 · 27-01-2003, 6:24 AM

I have 105 R1's and 5 R2's

Been using Episode 2 and LOTR (both R1). I'm not that bothered about R2 stuff.

Jonny1973 · 27-01-2003, 6:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MartinCo

you mention having control of just hue and tint, was this only in NTSC mode or do you get more options on PAL 625p?

On the Projector there is only a Tint adjustment in component mode which alters the hue. I don't have separate RGB controls like in SVGA mode.

On the DVD player I have no colour controls at all just gamma. Gamma either makes everything too dark or too light.

Jonny1973 · 27-01-2003, 6:29 AM

I have 105 R1's and 5 R2's

Been using Star Wars : Episode 2, LOTR, Monsters Inc (all R1). I'm not that bothered about R2 stuff.

richard plumb · 27-01-2003, 1:17 PM

I used Avia to set up my projector, which is clearly NTSC. I've had no real problems with it, even viewing PAL material - but I can see the point for calibrating in PAL too.

Does anyone know if the AE100 differentiates between Pal component and NTSC component in terms of image memories? Or is there just one setting for the component inputs?

I found that I didn't have to change much, but what I changed was on the PJ. I do find it odd that component disables colour setup on the DVD player, and calibrating could be tricky with the AE100, as it too has limited controls.

z5461313 · 27-01-2003, 1:19 PM

Hi Jonny

I had the same problem with my PAL progressive 962sa from China hooked upto my projector

I could not get the black levels correct. As you say you just have a gamma setting. I had to set it to -2 for normal viewing but still my black detail was bad. Plus my colours were muted and grainy scenes were made practically unwatchable

Really disappointed with it also as the spec sounds good with things like gold plated connectors etc

So I got a Limit now which has a brightness setting!

And now my picture is great with fine colours and black detail

Watched the 'Count of Monte Cristo' and the picture has never looked so good. I had to really sit up watching it because the picture was so good

WSquared · 28-01-2003, 1:06 AM

Jonny,
You are right about the contrast when Gamma (in the Crystal Clear menu) is set to 0. I just watched a few dark scenes from Unbreakable R1 that I know quite well for testing contrast and most of the detail was missing. (I wish I had done that before.) After dropping gamma to -3 and quickly readjusting contrast and brightness in my PJ's NTSC/night memory, it looks a lot better but still not as good as I have seen on a well calibrated CRT PJ and HTPC. It shouldn't be as far off as it is.
I will have to go back and re-ISF the system.

Good catch. What do you have your gamma set at?

Cheers,
William

Jonny1973 · 28-01-2003, 1:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSquared
You are right about the contrast when Gamma (in the Crystal Clear menu) is set to 0. I just watched a few dark scenes from Unbreakable R1 that I know quite well for testing contrast and most of the detail was missing. (I wish I had done that before.) After dropping gamma to -4 and quickly readjusting contrast and brightness in my PJ's NTSC/night memory, it looks a lot better but still not as good as I have seen on a well calibrated CRT PJ and HTPC. It shouldn't be as far off as it is.
I will have to go back and re-ISF the system.

Tried lots of settings. At the moment, I have Gamma on +3 with the brightness and contrast way up on the projector.

Is it just me or can i see macro blocks on peoples faces???

Jonny1973 · 28-01-2003, 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richard plumb
I used Avia to set up my projector, which is clearly NTSC. I've had no real problems with it, even viewing PAL material - but I can see the point for calibrating in PAL too.

Richard, what are your settings for the 963 and the AE100???

Jonny1973 · 28-01-2003, 4:24 AM

I've decided to return the player to Robertsons Online.

I'm within the 7 working days of receipt so I can get a full refund.

28-01-2003, 4:52 AM

Jonny

There is no chance that your player is faulty is there?

Its just that the contrast is excellent on my set up using the player with a Panny 100.

I find the blacks excellent and the colours vibrant - more so than the arcam dv88+ that I have had on demo at home and way better than my old Sony 900 and Tosh 520

This seems like a fine player to me when partnered with the panny.

I use a hoya fld filter in a completely blacked out room
- lowered true life setting to 1
- Panny on +1 contrast and +3 brightness using THX tests on SW - AOTC (low lamp mode)

Cheers

WSquared · 28-01-2003, 12:39 PM

Jonny, gamma of +3? Going positive was greatly reducing low light detail when I was adjusting it. You would never be able to get the detail back at the projector because the black details in the signal will already be gone.

TimF, what is your gamma setting? I assume you are connected via component.

I am still trying to get my head round Philips implementation of their gamma setting, ie figure out exactly how it affects the gamma curve. In any case, they need to sort it out.

Cheers, William

28-01-2003, 1:55 PM

William

Gamma is set at +1.

Tell you what else is good about this player - Progressive scan output from component connections and RGB from Scart concurrently.

i.e. I have my player connected to a crt tv and pj - no messing changing menu options it just works on both unlike Tosh 520 for example.

Cheers

28-01-2003, 4:52 AM	#27
TimF Guest Posts: n/a	Jonny There is no chance that your player is faulty is there? Its just that the contrast is excellent on my set up using the player with a Panny 100. I find the blacks excellent and the colours vibrant - more so than the arcam dv88+ that I have had on demo at home and way better than my old Sony 900 and Tosh 520 This seems like a fine player to me when partnered with the panny. I use a hoya fld filter in a completely blacked out room - lowered true life setting to 1 - Panny on +1 contrast and +3 brightness using THX tests on SW - AOTC (low lamp mode) Cheers
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28-01-2003, 1:55 PM	#29
TimF Guest Posts: n/a	William Gamma is set at +1. Tell you what else is good about this player - Progressive scan output from component connections and RGB from Scart concurrently. i.e. I have my player connected to a crt tv and pj - no messing changing menu options it just works on both unlike Tosh 520 for example. Cheers
	Quote