[JustDavid]

In the throws of doing a major update to my home cinema gear.

Avland will do me a good deal on the Pioneer PDPLX508D screen and Denon 3808 AV amp as a bundle, but to get the deal I have to preorder the Denon Blu-ray player, for which there is no set price yet. I'm also a bit concerned because no one will verify whether it will send TrueHD audio via HDMI 1.3a for decoding in the Amp.

I know I should probably wait but then;

a) The deal on the table may go
b) I might have to wait longer for some or all of the stuff if there is more demand than supply.

Thoughts anyone?

[Bald Monkey]

I'm not commenting on the Denon specifically, but I wouldn't make a deal where I didn't know the final price, what I was getting for my money or when I would get it. How any deal with those unknows can be considered 'good' is beyond me

Make a deal for what they have and you want, if you can get them better elsewhere do so... IMHO

[JustDavid]

Good deal just refered to the combined price for the TV and amp. I'm not too worried about Avland's price on the player, their prices seem to be good in the market. More about whether pre-ordering is a good idea, or am I having a 'kid in a sweet shop' moment.

[Drongo]

Firstly I would never pre-order something unless there was a confirmed price for it- you might find your ‘savings’ more than outweighed by how much the player will cost you.

Also there has been talk that this machine will be delayed in Europe, so you could be waiting a very long time for it.

Whilst I’ve no doubt it will be a fine machine, I couldn’t bring myself to pay a premium price for a machine that is not fully featured. The Denon lacks profile 2.0 support. Of course that is a purely personal preference…

[JustDavid]

Showing my ignorance, Profile 2.0 is something to do with extras on the disc?

[Drongo]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

Showing my ignorance, Profile 2.0 is something to do with extras on the disc?

From Ian’s Blu-ray guide:

BD-Live (sometimes called BD-Video Profile 2.0)
1GB of persistent storage
SD/HD decoding of PiP video
Secondary audio stream decoding
Internet connectivity required

Essentially this means that you can access extra material/ down load stuff off the net to compliment a particular disc.

Of course this may be of no interest to you at all. But if you do get this machine and want to take advantage of BD live you cannot.

This machine should have no problems with any extra’s on the disc as it should be 1.1 compliant.

[JustDavid]

Thanks, I'm still coming up to speed on whats new.

Havind read a lot about Blu-ray verses HD DVD I'm putting my money on Blu-ray. Consequently I have to decide which machine, I like the idea of the AV amps decoding the True HD sound from the player, so I'm going for the Denon3808 over the Onkyo options. But having read various threads on here about the ups and downs of this I'm just trying to future proof (as much as you ever can) by buying a player that outputs True HD sound via HDMI. I guess the only sensible thing to do is put the plastic back in the wallet and wait until its all resolved.

[Drongo]

If you do want to future proof, you need both formats..

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by Drongo

If you do want to future proof, you need both formats..

Y'pay yer money, y'take yer chance.

He who dares wins Rodney.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

Thanks, I'm still coming up to speed on whats new.

Havind read a lot about Blu-ray verses HD DVD I'm putting my money on Blu-ray. Consequently I have to decide which machine, I like the idea of the AV amps decoding the True HD sound from the player, so I'm going for the Denon3808 over the Onkyo options. But having read various threads on here about the ups and downs of this I'm just trying to future proof (as much as you ever can) by buying a player that outputs True HD sound via HDMI. I guess the only sensible thing to do is put the plastic back in the wallet and wait until its all resolved.

I think we will see several Blu-ray players with HDMI 1.3a that will support HD audio bitstream as standard or via FW upgrade. Also IIRC the Onkyo amps also decodes Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD MA and lossy codec audio bitstream.

I would also put my plastic back at least for a couple of months and I agree with Drongo that dual format is the only way forward if you are serious about watching movies.

AVI

[JustDavid]

The only thing with the Onkyo is I'm told by my local Sevenoaks dealer that they won't work well with my Kef 3005.1 speakers, it will make them sound bright. Thats the principle reason behind choosing the Denon over the Onkyo. I should probably audition both before trying but I'd have to make sure the dealer had some Kef's on demo.

Aren't there always going to be compromises in performance with dual players? Also, how long do you wait until the ultimate machine comes along? At some point you bite the bullet and take the plunge.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

The only thing with the Onkyo is I'm told by my local Sevenoaks dealer that they won't work well with my Kef 3005.1 speakers, it will make them sound bright. Thats the principle reason behind choosing the Denon over the Onkyo. I should probably audition both before trying but I'd have to make sure the dealer had some Kef's on demo.

Aren't there always going to be compromises in performance with dual players? Also, how long do you wait until the ultimate machine comes along? At some point you bite the bullet and take the plunge.

Sorry I can't comment on the Onkyo/KEF marriage and I don't use Sevenoaks.

What's the compromise ?

AVI

[Pecker]

The Denon is delayed until "Q2 2008", meaning you have a wait of between 7 and 10 months.

Ask yourself how much cheaper the A/V amp and TV will be by then anyway. You may get as good a deal, or better, with the amp & TV for less, even without the Denon.

Meanwhile, Denon have rumoured a dual-format player. With a delay that long, I'm far from convinced that a dual-format job may well come along at the same time, or not long thereafter.

Also, please consider (and this is not a format-war comment as such - I'd offer the same advice on both sides, in other words I'd say the same about a similarly priced HD DVD-only player due to launch in Q2 2008) paying £1,000+ for a player up to 10 months in advance simply can't be recommended. We have no idea where we'll be by the end of CEDIA this week, let alone in 10 months' time.

Committing yourself to spending this sort of money, in such an uncertain market, that far in advance, has got to be a big no-no.

Finally, and I'm not going to make a lot of friends with this, I'd wait for reviews here at these forums, and I'd get a demo. Put simply, I am not convinced that paying hundreds extra on a high end Denon BD (or Meridian HD DVD) will be worth it.

I think that high definition pictures from either format are so good to begin with, that you are not going to see the same improvement by buying a Denon/Meridian as you would in the SD arena.

I'll be letting others shell out a fortune on this sort of thing first, and look for a demo myself, before deciding.

Steve W

[grey torq]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

The only thing with the Onkyo is I'm told by my local Sevenoaks dealer that they won't work well with my Kef 3005.1 speakers, it will make them sound bright. Thats the principle reason behind choosing the Denon over the Onkyo. I should probably audition both before trying but I'd have to make sure the dealer had some Kef's on demo.

Aren't there always going to be compromises in performance with dual players? Also, how long do you wait until the ultimate machine comes along? At some point you bite the bullet and take the plunge.

I don't mean to sound like a wet blanket but...

KEF 3005.1 speakers are a big, big compromise, if these really are the speakers you intend to use long term then budget equipment all round would be the way to go. you may as well have a DENON 2807, PS3, HD-DVD E1 type setup.

[dr no]

I myself am interested in the Denon BD player.

But I also agree with the general idea to wait until these specs are fully implemented in the machines here and now. This is't too far. Don't be surprised if the same player isn't updated very quickly to be fully compliant with profile 2.0 (maybe even dual format?)

I disagree that HD PQ negates need for high end machines. The tech is very immature/early in it's life cyle. At least wait till the higher end is released.

Similarly a combo player shouldn't be as good as if the same equivalent is spent on a seperate.

EVERY technology to mind has benefitted from higher end machines. This HD format is no different. I don't know why anyone can think any different Bizarre.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by waled

I myself am interested in the Denon BD player.

But I also agree with the general idea to wait until these specs are fully implemented in the machines here and now. This is't too far. Don't be surprised if the same player isn't updated very quickly to be fully compliant with profile 2.0 (maybe even dual format?)

I disagree that HD PQ negates need for high end machines. The tech is very immature/early in it's life cyle. At least wait till the higher end is released.

Similarly a combo player shouldn't be as good as if the same equivalent is spent on a seperate.

EVERY technology to mind has benefitted from higher end machines. This HD format is no different. I don't know why anyone can think any different Bizarre.

I think there are many factors to consider and it's interesting how many people appear to agonise over the player to get the last ounce of performance when other elements of their setup i.e. display may be a limiting factor.

In the analogue world a high quality interconnect cable may make a significant difference to AQ or PQ but it makes less difference in the HDMI digital world. Yet people are still prepared to spend 10-100 times more on a 1-2m HDMI cable because it's "high end".

Personally I want to see and hear the difference before I decide.

AVI

[dr no]

Originally Posted by Avi

I think there are many factors to consider.........

In the analogue world.......... HDMI digital world......

Personally I want to see and hear the difference before I decide.

AVI

The HD player is a complicated machine with multiple components and their variable quality and quantity.

There will no doubt be many undiscovered techniques to exploit and accessory tech to help push boundaries further and faster.

Without doubt the high end will offer more. It always has done with every product at the appropriate stage in their life cycle.

Whether these incoming players are ready to offer the next stage will need to be seen to be believed. But this would apply with any players anytime. but probably more so later in the life cycle.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by waled

The HD player is a complicated machine with multiple components and their variable quality and quantity.

There will no doubt be many undiscovered techniques to exploit and accessory tech to help push boundaries further and faster.

Without doubt the high end will offer more. It always has done with every product at the appropriate stage in their life cycle.

Whether these incoming players are ready to offer the next stage will need to be seen to be believed. But this would apply with any players anytime. but probably more so later in the life cycle.

Your comment above describe product development in general not just "high end". At each stage of the lifecycle there will be what is considered a high end product. I guess today in Blu-ray the closest thing is the Pioneer LX70 but it appears to have performance issues.

I don't think anyone doubts that things should get better but as I said in an earlier post personally I want to see and hear the difference if I paying a premium.

AVI

[dr no]

Originally Posted by Avi

I want to see and hear the difference if I paying a premium.

AVI

you're absolutely right

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by waled

EVERY technology to mind has benefitted from higher end machines. This HD format is no different. I don't know why anyone can think any different Bizarre.

I'm not saying there'd be no difference, just that the differences will be smaller.

In ye olde days a Denon SD DVD player would resolve far more detail than a budget model. But now there's so much detail in the spec of high def that it's difficult to do it badly.

Example - there is genuine debate over whether or not humans can tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at a normal seating distance.

If that is the case, then any player that can output 1080p is already outputting more detail than is necessary. To try and squeeze the most out of 1080p is therefore not going to bring much noticeable benefit.

Look at high def audio. We're now sampling rates at up to 192khz. But most speakers only resolve up to 20khz, so we have the invention of the 'super tweeter' which can go higher.

Any yet the human ear can only hear up to c.20khz. So what's the next step? A high end machine that can resolve audio up to 3,000 Khz? What good is that to human beings?

Steve W

[dbs2]

Originally Posted by Pecker

I'm not saying there'd be no difference, just that the differences will be smaller.

In ye olde days a Denon SD DVD player would resolve far more detail than a budget model. But now there's so much detail in the spec of high def that it's difficult to do it badly.

Example - there is genuine debate over whether or not humans can tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at a normal seating distance.

If that is the case, then any player that can output 1080p is already outputting more detail than is necessary. To try and squeeze the most out of 1080p is therefore not going to bring much noticeable benefit.

Look at high def audio. We're now sampling rates at up to 192khz. But most speakers only resolve up to 20khz, so we have the invention of the 'super tweeter' which can go higher.

Any yet the human ear can only hear up to c.20khz. So what's the next step? A high end machine that can resolve audio up to 3,000 Khz? What good is that to human beings?

Steve W

PROJECTORS !!

[Pecker]

Dean, see:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767929

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

The point is, if we struggle to resolve anything much over 720p, then the difference between a reasonable 1080p machine costing £300 and a super-high-end 1080p machine costing thousands is going to be imperceivable.

The reason SD DVD players could produce such differing results was that they had so much room to play with. The closer the format gets to the limits of what we can see, the less room you have to play with, and the less difference you can make.

Steve W

[dbs2]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Dean, see:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767929

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

The point is, if we struggle to resolve anything much over 720p, then the difference between a reasonable 1080p machine costing £300 and a super-high-end 1080p machine costing thousands is going to be imperceivable.

The reason SD DVD players could produce such differing results was that they had so much room to play with. The closer the format gets to the limits of what we can see, the less room you have to play with, and the less difference you can make.

Steve W

GREAT LINKS..... Thanks Steve

On there you are well right....... Maybe my comparisons are at the wrong end of the deal.... You see my old HS60 720p was the dogs till i got the VW50 Pearl... the difference IS Amazing.... on the same screen..... with my lonely ps3.....that is the only comparison i personally have... should the source be 720p for this comparison or the Delivery machine ??

[peterweg]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Dean, see:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767929

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

The point is, if we struggle to resolve anything much over 720p, then the difference between a reasonable 1080p machine costing £300 and a super-high-end 1080p machine costing thousands is going to be imperceivable.

The reason SD DVD players could produce such differing results was that they had so much room to play with. The closer the format gets to the limits of what we can see, the less room you have to play with, and the less difference you can make.

Steve W

Why not sit even further away and you can get away with 480p?

I size my screen and sit close enough so that I can see the benefit of 1080p, isn't that the point?

[meltonboy]

Back to the OP - I think that we can agree that 'value for money' on all things AV will continue to get better and better, so you'll get a beter deal when the denon is out, as that looks like a few months away.

However, if you have that 'buzz' to start buying new gadgets now (and goodness knows most of us have been there...), could you not just go for this deal and then cancel the pre-order in a couple of weeks ?

How would they actually do this pre-order ? If they are not taking a deposit and there's no price, would it just be a verbal promise ?

Is this sort of thing common practice ? it sounds pretty dodgy to me, in my opinion.

Finally, if you do go for it, make sure that you pay with a credit card. if you have any arguments with the retailer, the credit card company can be on your side, giving much better protection for you than paying by maestro etc.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by Avi

Sorry I can't comment on the Onkyo/KEF marriage and I don't use Sevenoaks.

What's the compromise ?

AVI

No I probably won't next time, although in fairness they are closing down the particular franchise so the sales guys are probably not feeling at their most helpful.

Showing my ignorance but I would just assume that a player having to cope with two different formats will not produce the same level of quality as a dedicated player. Unless its double the price and then you'd probably just buy one of each anyway.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by peterweg

Why not sit even further away and you can get away with 480p?

I size my screen and sit close enough so that I can see the benefit of 1080p, isn't that the point?

Absolutely not!

If they released a player/projector that was 10,000p, would you sit 2 inches away to get all the detail? Of course not.

Choosing your seating distance by sitting where you can see most detail is a ridiculous way to go about things.

You sit where you feel comfortable with the image. For most people, for most home cinemas, this is between 1.5x and 2x screen widths.

The second test of the two was carried out at up to as close as 1.4x screen widths - in other words, closer than 95% of home cinema set ups.

BTW, I raised a smile at: "Why not sit even further away and you can get away with 480p?". My point exactly! Many of us did have SD projecters and SD DVDs, and no-one ever suggested knocking a hole through the back wall so we could sit further away.

We sat at a comfortable distance, and the picture was a bit soft. No-one ever suggested sitting further away - it negates the idea of watching on a projector!

Steve W

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by dean1474

GREAT LINKS..... Thanks Steve

On there you are well right....... Maybe my comparisons are at the wrong end of the deal.... You see my old HS60 720p was the dogs till i got the VW50 Pearl... the difference IS Amazing.... on the same screen..... with my lonely ps3.....that is the only comparison i personally have... should the source be 720p for this comparison or the Delivery machine ??

No. It's interesting to note in those two tests that, even though projectors had different resolutions, the source was 1080.

BTW, the reason your Pearl is better than your old HS60 is probably more to do with a lot of other aspects of the projector than the difference in resolution.

That's why those 2 tests are important. They used projectors which were all but identical, other than the resolution.

Steve W

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by meltonboy

Back to the OP - I think that we can agree that 'value for money' on all things AV will continue to get better and better, so you'll get a beter deal when the denon is out, as that looks like a few months away.

However, if you have that 'buzz' to start buying new gadgets now (and goodness knows most of us have been there...), could you not just go for this deal and then cancel the pre-order in a couple of weeks ?

How would they actually do this pre-order ? If they are not taking a deposit and there's no price, would it just be a verbal promise ?

Is this sort of thing common practice ? it sounds pretty dodgy to me, in my opinion.

Finally, if you do go for it, make sure that you pay with a credit card. if you have any arguments with the retailer, the credit card company can be on your side, giving much better protection for you than paying by maestro etc.

Or you could just say "I'll have the TV and amp at the reduced price, but I don't want to order the Denon. If you refuse to sell the TV/amp to me at that price, that's fine. I'm out of the door and I'll spend my money elsewhere".

Always remember. They want your money.

Steve W

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by grey torq

I don't mean to sound like a wet blanket but...

KEF 3005.1 speakers are a big, big compromise, if these really are the speakers you intend to use long term then budget equipment all round would be the way to go. you may as well have a DENON 2807, PS3, HD-DVD E1 type setup.

In the size room they are in and with the potential for kids stabbing them with all manor of plastic toys, they were the best choice. I auditioned them at Sevenoaks in a room 3 times the size of mine and they managed to fill the room with detailed sound. I won't be using these for normal CD listening they're only for TV and films. Correct me if I wrong but the better Amp driving them the better sound you can expect (to the limit of their ability granted) I'd be interested to hear if anyone else agrees that I'm perhaps wasting money buying an Denon 3808 with the Kef 3005.1 speakers.