[amason]

newbie here

I have a 50" samsung DLP which has 720p High Definition. Now I want to buy an upscaling dvd player to go with it. My question is do I need to ensure the player outputs at 720p or doesnt it matter if its 576/720/1080/I/p ?

thanks in advance

[rEVILospud]

It is best to output @ 720p as that is your display's native resolution.
This isn't a difficult requirement as most/all upscaling players have this option.
I have a Samsung SP50 fed by an Oppo 971 @ 720p.

[amason]

Thanks revilspud, appreciated. Apologies for the very basic question but this stuff is all new to me. I now get a feeling the whole forum is laughing at me

whats the DLP picture like playing 720p ? - I havent been able to see a demo as it appears no one does the sp50 anymore.

[rEVILospud]

It's ok, I'm sure no-one is laughing.
If you don't ask, you'll never know.

Sending a 720p signal just minimizes the processing that the TV has to do; the better the player, the better the picture.
I have an Xbox 360, a Toshiba HD DVD player and an Oppo 971 DVD player all sending 720p to my SP50.
The improvement on DVDs with the upscaling DVD player is noticeably better, although obviously nowhere a real HD source.

At the moment it's not much more expensive to get a Toshiba HD-E1 HD DVD player, which also upscales DVDs, they are currently selling for under £200.

[amason]

again thanks mate.

You've helped narrow a few of these players down for me.

All I need now is something to upscale my beetamax tapes with...

[Neil Hawkes]

Just to further muddy the waters, my DVD player already outputs at 720p & 1080i, it is clearly not an HD DVD, but is this classed as HD? I'm fairly certain if I bought an HD DVD it wouldn't play on my machine.

I've been under the assumption that HD is 1080p, although the Sky HD 1080i.

Well confused with the whole lot, tbh.

All the best,
Neil.

[Iain-]

Originally Posted by amason

.......

All I need now is something to upscale my beetamax tapes with...

The new generation of Onkyo A/V receivers will do this.

Seriously.

[damo110011]

Hi just got a samsung httxq120 which upscales to 1080p!!! but every dvd i insert the player wont upscale them there is no optoin in menu and samsung said it should upscale automatically when dvd is inserted.
Called shop where I purchased it from and they said you cant upscale normal dvds but can upscale dvds from usa So I have spent £765 on a dvd player that will only upscale dvds from the usa this cant be right. I feel conned and misled HELP.

[amason]

Originally Posted by Neil Hawkes

Just to further muddy the waters, my DVD player already outputs at 720p & 1080i, it is clearly not an HD DVD, but is this classed as HD? I'm fairly certain if I bought an HD DVD it wouldn't play on my machine.

I've been under the assumption that HD is 1080p, although the Sky HD 1080i.

Well confused with the whole lot, tbh.

All the best,
Neil.

I think we need a seperate forum entitled "The simple basics for very beginning beginners"

In answer to your questions, 1080p is HD but 720p and 1080i are also HD formats as well. To play a proper HD DVD you would need a dedicated real and proper HD DVD player is my understanding (I think... )

[Neil Hawkes]

Originally Posted by amason

I think we need a seperate forum entitled "The simple basics for very beginning beginners"

In answer to your questions, 1080p is HD but 720p and 1080i are also HD formats as well. To play a proper HD DVD you would need a dedicated real and proper HD DVD player is my understanding (I think... )

Thanks for that amason.

You see my confusion then, apparently I have a player that outputs at HD standard, but won't play HD DVDs?

So what output should I be using for my standard DVDs? I currently have the player set to 720p, but what's the point if the discs aren't that "detailed"?

[amason]

Originally Posted by damo110011

Hi just got a samsung httxq120 which upscales to 1080p!!! but every dvd i insert the player wont upscale them there is no optoin in menu and samsung said it should upscale automatically when dvd is inserted.
Called shop where I purchased it from and they said you cant upscale normal dvds but can upscale dvds from usa So I have spent £765 on a dvd player that will only upscale dvds from the usa this cant be right. I feel conned and misled HELP.

Damo, this sort of thing is exactly what i was afraid of. Wish I was more knowledgeable and could be of assistance to you. You go to these shops to buy their stuff and they pack you off with equipment that is no use to you.

The reason I posted this thread in the first place, was because I popped out for lunch to look at a couple of DVD "upscalers" and/or home cinema systems. Everyone was tripping over themselves to flog me this and that - Not one sales rep took a blind bit of interest in what TV and / or connections I had which can't be right.

[King Louis]

Originally Posted by amason

All I need now is something to upscale my beetamax tapes with...

[amason]

Originally Posted by Neil Hawkes

Thanks for that amason.

You see my confusion then, apparently I have a player that outputs at HD standard, but won't play HD DVDs?

So what output should I be using for my standard DVDs? I currently have the player set to 720p, but what's the point if the discs aren't that "detailed"?

Neil, I think you've got a DVD upscaler as opposed to a true HD DVD player.

I might be wrong, but my understanding from evilspud, is you set the player which is compatible with the native HD of your telly..

If your Tv is 1080i then I suppose you set the player to 1080i. If its a 1080p telly you set the player to 1080p. A 720p Tv with a 720p player etc

[amason]

Originally Posted by King Louis

I was gutted many moons ago when you couldnt get Debbie Does Dallas on Beetamax.

Its available on DVD now though. Cant wait to upscale Bambi Woods on my 50 inches

[rEVILospud]

PAL DVDs have a resolution of 576i with is SD.
An upscaling DVD player can extrapolate this to higher resolutions such as 720p, 1080i, 1080p etc., but the source of the video is still SD.
You only see a benefit with an upscaling DVD player if the player can upscale better than your TV can.
Using a non-upscaling DVD player means your TV is sent 576i (or 576p if it's progressive scan), if your TV has a native resolution of 1280x720 (720p) then it needs to scale the picture up (i.e. upscale) to fit the screen, otherwise you'd have a 720x576 (576p) picture in the middle of a 1280x720 (720p) TV with big black borders all around.
Upscaling DVD players just do this job before it reaches the TV; and if it does it better than the TV would, then it will look better.
Obviously it's a little more complicated than this, but gives you a good idea.

HD DVD is a "completely" different format and requires an HD DVD player, not a DVD player which upscales to HD resolutions.
HD DVDs are in 1080p (1920x1080), quite a big step up from 576i (720x576) DVDs.

An SD source (DVD) will never look as good as an HD source (e.g. HD DVD), simply because there is much less information there.

Hope this helps.

[mk-donald]

Don't forget that it isn't just WHERE the processing of data to create a 720p picture from your standard DVD source takes place but the ENTIRE life cycle of that data and all the opportunites for 'approximate' processing and coding/decoding/re-coding and data loss/corruption along the way that matter.

As I understand it for a 720p signal/display:

1) If you DONT use an upscaling DVD player with HDMI/DVI output...

* DVD digital data at 576 PAL ie 400 lines data (350 if NTSC US Disc)
* decoded to PAL analog data <<< approximations creep in
* transmitted as PAL analog signal over (hopefully RGB) SCART <<< potential loss/corruption/interference
* recoded back to PAL digital data <<< approximations creep in again
* UPSCALED in TV to 720p (1280x720) with interpolated data
* displayed as 1280x720 pixels

2) If you DO use an upscaling DVD player

* DVD digital data at 576 PAL ie 400 lines data (350 if NTSC US Disc)
* UPSCALED in DVD to 720p (1280x720) data with interpolated data
* transmitted as DIGITAL data over cable
* displayed as 1280x720 pixels

ie without a decoding/transfer/recoding which can/DO 'cloud' the picture

There are issues whether the chip/algorithms used in the DVD player versus the chip/algorithms in the TV display are the best, but you'll probably find your DVD player is more modern (better algorithms?) AND had three layers less of 'error' and hence better and/or its cheaper to upgrade your DVD player than it is your entire TV.

That's my understanding anyway - borne out after using a couple of upscaling players from a £30 cheapo to a £80 midrange with 720p and 1080i TVs - ie both players improved the picture significantly/noticably to all viewers.

[amason]

thanks mate and to revilospud for the post before. Its all starting to make sense at last ..

My tv is 720p with 3 scarts, s video and component but only 1 HDMI input. Was originally going to get an all in one cinema package which outputs 720p through the HDMI (philips 9800w). However reading other threads on this forum I'm starting being swayed to get a seperate av amp with a few HDMI inputs and then I can add and remove equipment as technology changes.

As revilospud says on a previous thread, I can get a combined dvd upscaler and HD DVD player from Toshiba and plug that into an amp. (As well as sky, cd player etc) Should Bluray win the day then I assume I just plug one of their Bluray players or playstation in. I can also get a turntable and plug that in for all those presently wasted vinyls Ive got I think

Next question - Am I on the right lines with these thoughts ?

[rEVILospud]

Yes.
Separates are the way to go.
The Toshiba HD-E1 and an AV Receiver that accepts PCM over HDMI (so you can listen to HD sound formats), would be a good combo.
I have the Sony STR-DA3200ES which does this, it also has a dedicated phono (MM) input for a turntable.

[Neil Hawkes]

Originally Posted by rEVILospud

PAL DVDs have a resolution of 576i with is SD.
An upscaling DVD player can extrapolate this to higher resolutions such as 720p, 1080i, 1080p etc., but the source of the video is still SD.
You only see a benefit with an upscaling DVD player if the player can upscale better than your TV can.
Using a non-upscaling DVD player means your TV is sent 576i (or 576p if it's progressive scan), if your TV has a native resolution of 1280x720 (720p) then it needs to scale the picture up (i.e. upscale) to fit the screen, otherwise you'd have a 720x576 (576p) picture in the middle of a 1280x720 (720p) TV with big black borders all around.
Upscaling DVD players just do this job before it reaches the TV; and if it does it better than the TV would, then it will look better.
Obviously it's a little more complicated than this, but gives you a good idea.

HD DVD is a "completely" different format and requires an HD DVD player, not a DVD player which upscales to HD resolutions.
HD DVDs are in 1080p (1920x1080), quite a big step up from 576i (720x576) DVDs.

An SD source (DVD) will never look as good as an HD source (e.g. HD DVD), simply because there is much less information there.

Hope this helps.

Excellent, thanks spuds.

I'll have a play when I get back home with a few different settings, it may well be beneficial setting my DVD player to 576i and let the telly do the upgrading from there.

[Neil Hawkes]

Originally Posted by mk-donald

Don't forget that it isn't just WHERE the processing of data to create a 720p picture from your standard DVD source takes place but the ENTIRE life cycle of that data and all the opportunites for 'approximate' processing and coding/decoding/re-coding and data loss/corruption along the way that matter.

As I understand it for a 720p signal/display:

1) If you DONT use an upscaling DVD player with HDMI/DVI output...

* DVD digital data at 576 PAL ie 400 lines data (350 if NTSC US Disc)
* decoded to PAL analog data <<< approximations creep in
* transmitted as PAL analog signal over (hopefully RGB) SCART <<< potential loss/corruption/interference
* recoded back to PAL digital data <<< approximations creep in again
* UPSCALED in TV to 720p (1280x720) with interpolated data
* displayed as 1280x720 pixels

2) If you DO use an upscaling DVD player

* DVD digital data at 576 PAL ie 400 lines data (350 if NTSC US Disc)
* UPSCALED in DVD to 720p (1280x720) data with interpolated data
* transmitted as DIGITAL data over cable
* displayed as 1280x720 pixels

ie without a decoding/transfer/recoding which can/DO 'cloud' the picture

There are issues whether the chip/algorithms used in the DVD player versus the chip/algorithms in the TV display are the best, but you'll probably find your DVD player is more modern (better algorithms?) AND had three layers less of 'error' and hence better and/or its cheaper to upgrade your DVD player than it is your entire TV.

That's my understanding anyway - borne out after using a couple of upscaling players from a £30 cheapo to a £80 midrange with 720p and 1080i TVs - ie both players improved the picture significantly/noticably to all viewers.

Thanks for that as well.

I'll definitely be playing with a few settings in a few weeks time.

[lochie]

Originally Posted by amason

However reading other threads on this forum I'm starting being swayed to get a seperate av amp with a few HDMI inputs and then I can add and remove equipment as technology changes.

It has a tendency to do this. I was only planning putting the plasma on the wall , ending up doing complete revamp of my simple all in one system (disguised as decorating job).

Nice explanations from MK-donald and rEVILospud, I learn somthing every day on here.

So what makes a good upscaling DVD player - and how much would you spend. I have seen them costing anything from £30 to £1500 ?

My current DVD player (Phillips all in one) is plugged in via the AV amp upscaled to componant to TV , is it worth replacing with cheap upscaling player with HDMI direct TV ?

Thanks

[Neil Hawkes]

Lochie,

If you're looking to replace, why not buy an HD player?

All the best, Neil.