[McKinley]

Having recently bought a 42" Pioneer plasma, I'm interested to see if the picture quality of my Pioneer DV585 currently connected via component can be improved upon. The Pure Cinema deinterlacing of the plasma is fantastic, removing all traces of 3:2 pulldown that I could see. Note: This is a different (better) version of Pure Cinema than found in the Pioneer DV696 etc.

I have a budget of around £250.

I was considering getting an Oppo 981 as this seemed the most likely to offer picture improvements over my 585 at this price level. HOWEVER, the 981 does not allow 480i/576i output via HDMI, which means that I couldn't use the Pure Cinema deinterlacing in the plasma if I wanted to. It does have Faroudja DCDi though.

Please can anyone tell me:

1. How Faroujda DCDi and Pioneer Pure Cinema (plasma) compare as deinterlacing solutions?

2. Is Pure Cinema (plasma) good for 2:2 deinterlacing?

3. Does Faroudja have the macroblocking bug on 480p/576p resolutions?

4. If there's no real difference between the two solutions, what are the best players for use as a transport (i.e. outputting 480i/576i over HDMI). I'm only aware of the Oppo 970 or the Pioneer 696 both of which use a mediatek mpeg decoder. Are there any better options at this price level?

Thanks

[blkgti16v]

hey I too am curious to see responces on this thread, I am a very happy Pio DV-575 owner. Personaly I wouldnt buy anything DVD player that has a faroudja chip in it, read far too many posts etc about macro-blocking problems with them. I was looking at the Denon DVD-1930 but wont buy one because of this. Im hanging on for the next gen of Pioneer players myself

[Powelly131]

I have a 696 and a 427, pure cinema is switched off on the plasma, (and will always be). For my money, the dvd picture output at 720p is fantastic, very difficult to criticise it at all. I'm no dvd geek, so I have no idea what 3:2 pulldown is, but I get one hell of a good picture!

[McKinley]

Originally Posted by Powelly131

I have no idea what 3:2 pulldown is, but I get one hell of a good picture!

3:2 pulldown is motion judder introduced into NTSC movies as result of converting the 24 frame film to 60 frames (frames are repeated).

The plasma features a deinterlacing system that can eliminate this by combining it with a 72hz refresh rate. The Pioneer 696 cannot do this.
Outputting 720p means that the deinterlacer in the plasma is bypassed, and the one in the DVD player (not as good) gets used instead.

My DV585 (which is basically the 696 without HDMI) looks worse when outputting progressive into the plasma than if I output interlaced into the plasma and switch on pure cinema.

The pure cinema badge on the DVD player is misleading as it is not the same technology as in the plasma.

[Nic Rhodes]

Originally Posted by McKinley

Please can anyone tell me:

1. How Faroujda DCDi and Pioneer Pure Cinema (plasma) compare as deinterlacing solutions?

They are both impressive solutions for deinterlacing but have different strengths and weaknesses.

Originally Posted by McKinley

2. Is Pure Cinema (plasma) good for 2:2 deinterlacing?

Not really spent a huge amount of time with it.

Originally Posted by McKinley

3. Does Faroudja have the macroblocking bug on 480p/576p resolutions?

MB is at all resolution and is a 'chip' thing, however with proper calibration it is not really an issue here with Oppos. Other players, it has been.

Originally Posted by McKinley

4. If there's no real difference between the two solutions, what are the best players for use as a transport (i.e. outputting 480i/576i over HDMI). I'm only aware of the Oppo 970 or the Pioneer 696 both of which use a mediatek mpeg decoder. Are there any better options at this price level?

Not that I have found. Given your budget however I think I would buy a 981 as a proven performer unless you can get you plasma to regenerate a 48Hz signal from a 480i input.

[McKinley]

Thanks Nic.
I don't really understand your last answer I'm afraid.

I thought the plasma (when set to 75hz mode and pure cinema) will take an incoming interlaced ntsc 60hz/pal 50hz signal and inverse telecine it to a multiple of the refresh rate (I realise that ntsc would be 24*3=72hz, rather than 75hz). Is this not the case? - I thought this was why Pure Cinema ntsc was so smooth.

Why would I need to regenerate a 48hz signal?

[peri]

Originally Posted by McKinley

My DV585 (which is basically the 696 without HDMI) looks worse when outputting progressive into the plasma than if I output interlaced into the plasma and switch on pure cinema.

The DV-585 is not 696 without HDMI. The DV-585 uses the MediaTek 1389EE, just as the DV-575, whereas the DV-696 is based on the newer and improved Mediatek MT1389EXE and includes an additional MT1392E HDMI upscaler. See http://pioneerfaq.info for more detailed information.

[McKinley]

Originally Posted by peri

The DV-585 is not 696 without HDMI. The DV-585 uses the MediaTek 1389EE, just as the DV-575, whereas the DV-696 is based on the newer and improved Mediatek MT1389EXE and includes an additional MT1392E HDMI upscaler. See http://pioneerfaq.info for more detailed information.

I'm aware that the 696 includes an upscaling chip. However, can you tell me what the difference is in MPEG decoding performance between the MT1389EE and MT1389EXE? I'm not interested in upscaling via the player - my plasma will still have to scale 720p to 768p and it will not be as good.

[blkgti16v]

I am also curious as to the difference between the Mediatek MT1389EE and MT1389EXE chips. If anyone knows it'l sure be appreciated?

[Nic Rhodes]

Originally Posted by McKinley

Thanks Nic.
I don't really understand your last answer I'm afraid.

I thought the plasma (when set to 75hz mode and pure cinema) will take an incoming interlaced ntsc 60hz/pal 50hz signal and inverse telecine it to a multiple of the refresh rate (I realise that ntsc would be 24*3=72hz, rather than 75hz). Is this not the case? - I thought this was why Pure Cinema ntsc was so smooth.

Why would I need to regenerate a 48hz signal?

I don't have a Pioneer here but as far as I am concerned whether it displays at 48 or 72 is irrelevant, they are essentiall the same thing as far as what we are talking about here but I know this is not always possible to do this on all progressive signals hence the comments above.

[peri]

Originally Posted by McKinley

However, can you tell me what the difference is in MPEG decoding performance between the MT1389EE and MT1389EXE? I'm not interested in upscaling via the player - my plasma will still have to scale 720p to 768p and it will not be as good.

One important difference is that the MT1389EXE is the first MTK chip that deinterlaces PAL content correctly (the MT1389EE in the DV-470/575/585 and the MT1389FE in the DV-490 could not do this, for a description of the problem in the DV-490, see http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=61831). In addition to this, the MT1389EXE is DivX Ultra certified, while the MT1389EE and MT1389FE are only DivX Home Theater certified. This last suggests that the MT1389EXE has more raw processing power than its predecessors and should perform better in more demanding situations.

Visually, I cannot find much difference between the MT1389EE-based DV-470 and the MT1389EXE-based DV-696 (I have both) when connected over component at 480p/576p, but then I do not have the PAL DVDs mentioned in http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=61831 for which the PAL deinterlacing of the DV-490 has been observed to be particularly bad. HDMI at 480p/576p is very similar to component (I have the DV-696 connected to a Sony 32v2500). However, HDMI at 720p provides a very noticeable improvement, especially on lower-quaility material which the DV-696 seems to upscale and clean up much better than the Sony. The difference between the DV-470 and DV-696 on DivX is literally night and day.

[blkgti16v]

Hi Peri thx for your input! I have read that link on the DV-490 before, althought I did wonder if that particular model was designed specificly for NTSC because if you notice in the players menu you have options for 720 x 480i and 720 x 480p.

480 is the horizontal resolution of NTSC PAL is 576 so I wondered why in the players menu there was no option for 720 x 576? This makes me wonder if the player reviewed was designed just for NTSC?

[peri]

Originally Posted by blkgti16v

I have read that link on the DV-490 before, althought I did wonder if that particular model was designed specificly for NTSC because if you notice in the players menu you have options for 720 x 480i and 720 x 480p.

480 is the horizontal resolution of NTSC PAL is 576 so I wondered why in the players menu there was no option for 720 x 576? This makes me wonder if the player reviewed was designed just for NTSC?

This is from the first page of Lyris's review of the DV-490, the DV-696 behaves identically:

(Note that the resolution option in the player's menu changes to reflect the last disc you had in - 480 for NTSC, 576 for PAL.)

[blkgti16v]

ahh right I see the player "see's" the resolution of the disk, I understand. So I understand that the DV-490 then uses the 1389EE chip and therfore cannot deinterlace PAL correctly but the DV-696 has the new 1389EXE which can? Is that about the sum of it?

[peri]

Originally Posted by blkgti16v

ahh right I see the player "see's" the resolution of the disk, I understand. So I understand that the DV-490 then uses the 1389EE chip and therfore cannot deinterlace PAL correctly but the DV-696 has the new 1389EXE which can? Is that about the sum of it?

On the surface, yes. Finer differences between the MT1389EE/FE and the EXE would be more difficult to quantify, apart from the pronounced improvement in DivX decoding. One interesting observation is that in the States the DV-696 is marketed as one of the 'premium' Pioneer DVD players, Pioneer Elite DV-46AV, the first of the Elite series to carry a MTK chip.

By the way, the highly regarded Oppo 971H uses MT1389FE for MPEG decoding (see the pictures in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9&page=6&pp=30), and I assume that the newer 981HD that many people are raving about is based on the same chip. So, the 'budget' Pioneer DV-696 does seem to have an ace up its sleeve...

[sieade245]

I have the Pio 436xde. Up until yesterday, i too was using the Pio 585 DVD player. I agree that the Plasma De-interlacer is much better than the DVD. My DVDs also looked relatively poor when the DVD player was set to progressive mode. I'm not a techie, all I can tell you is what they looked like! In interlaced mode i was pretty happy with the quality

Today i took the plunge and bought a Denon AV 1930+ HDMI cable. All i can say is WOW!! I cannot believe what a difference this new player has made. I set it to 720P output and put Star Wars 3 on. I started to think ("Hang on, my brain's probably telling me because i just spent 200 quid on this thing it must be better"), so i swapped the PIO back in to make sure. Sure enough, it looked nowhere near as good. I suppose it is about 2 years? old now though.

I've read various articles on here about Fara DCDi (not really understanding most of them) and macro-blocking and other problems etc. To be honest, if you just like watching movies and you're not gunna sit 2 inches in front of ur tv trying to find things wrong with your system, I can't recommend this thing enough! In fact, anyone who still has a 585, find a bin and go shopping!!

[blkgti16v]

Hey Peri yer Iv seen these Pioneer "Elite" Players only recently but have never really known what their about? Are they an American thing or can you get them here to?

[McKinley]

Originally Posted by peri

By the way, the highly regarded Oppo 971H uses MT1389FE for MPEG decoding (see the pictures in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9&page=6&pp=30), and I assume that the newer 981HD that many people are raving about is based on the same chip. So, the 'budget' Pioneer DV-696 does seem to have an ace up its sleeve...

I suspect that the only thing that the EXE chip brings the Pioneer over the Oppo is better DIVX playback, and even then it may only *possibly* be better.

I still haven't heard anything to suggest that core mpeg2 decoding performance (for DVD playback, DIVX doesn't interest me) is better in the 696 than the 585 or the Oppo.

The Oppo uses Faroudja for de-interlacing and this will floor the 696.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Oppo for it's superior de-interlacing and excellent support/firmware updates. Pioneer tech support (as with most major manufacturers) is almost non-existent.
The only advantage I can see for the Pioneer is the ability to output 480i/576i.

The Denon 1930 has no lip-sync correction and for me is therefore out of the question as this is still very much an issue with that player.

[blkgti16v]

the well known faurodja macroblocking problem is what stops me buying any player with it in

[McKinley]

Originally Posted by blkgti16v

the well known faurodja macroblocking problem is what stops me buying any player with it in

Have you seen it on a properly calibrated display though? Apparently it shouldn't be a problem. My (albeit short) experience with the Denon 1930 showed up no macro-blocking at all and that uses Faroudja.
It's extremely display dependant.

[David Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by blkgti16v

Hey Peri yer Iv seen these Pioneer "Elite" Players only recently but have never really known what their about? Are they an American thing or can you get them here to?

The "Elite" line isn't something Pioneer have ever acknowledged in Europe, to the best of my knowledge. Often you'll find players over here, that have equivalent models in America with the "Elite" branding, but they're nearly (or maybe even completely?) functionally identical. I used to own a Pioneer DV-668AV and seem to remember the US model being called the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi which apparently only had minor differences.

I do prefer the black casing of the US players, though. But I've heard a few people from over there who wish they were silver like ours.

[Stone Free]

Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes

MB is at all resolution and is a 'chip' thing, however with proper calibration it is not really an issue here with Oppos. Other players, it has been.

Originally Posted by McKinley

Have you seen it on a properly calibrated display though? Apparently it shouldn't be a problem. My (albeit short) experience with the Denon 1930 showed up no macro-blocking at all and that uses Faroudja.
It's extremely display dependant.

How does an properly calibrated display sort this out? You were originally asking Nic if it had macroblocking bug on 480p/576p. Are you saying that since then you have seen it on a properly calibrated display?

[David Mackenzie]

Nic, I'd like your input on that as well - would I be right in saying that proper calibration can prevent emphasising the MBE error further, but not totally cure it? I've had no luck with my own Panasonic DVD-S97 - every time I adjust the player and TV Brightness, Contrast and Saturation, I can get rid of the MBE in some scenes, but it pops up again in others.

[McKinley]

Originally Posted by Stone Free

How does an properly calibrated display sort this out? You were originally asking Nic if it had macroblocking bug on 480p/576p. Are you saying that since then you have seen it on a properly calibrated display?

No, but in the quote you posted Nic clearly states that it isn't really an issue with most properly calibrated set-ups, and I don't own a Panasonic display (the most badly affected). For a player like the Oppo that I'll stuggle to demo, an opinion like Nic's is most welcome, and persuasive.

And I also mentioned that I'd tried the Denon 1930 which uses Faroudja too and not seen any macroblocking. The Denons have always displayed the bug to a greater or lesser extent.

[Nic Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Lyris

Nic, I'd like your input on that as well - would I be right in saying that proper calibration can prevent emphasising the MBE error further, but not totally cure it? I've had no luck with my own Panasonic DVD-S97 - every time I adjust the player and TV Brightness, Contrast and Saturation, I can get rid of the MBE in some scenes, but it pops up again in others.

Pretty much as I see it. With my kit I don't have an issue to be worried about though I have seen some combinations that I think are truely awful. The partnering equipment is also all important here so lot's more than the player needs to be considered. Calibration minimises the effect but does not remove it. Just like Cue, it can be filtered but not removed. To remove Cue you need a good MPEG decoder to start with, to remover MB you need other deinterlacing chips but the Faroudja is popular with many for it's jaggie free stuff on video. Persoanlly I would put this chip is displays and not players and put other more film based deinterlacing solutions in the players as this better suits what they are most used for.

The 97 was bad for MB but I think most Oppo users are much less concerned in reality.

[blkgti16v]

Im still using a CRT anyway. So Il be in the market for a Plasma sooner or later, its bad enough finding a TV ya happy with I wouldnt want the extra hassle of finding out if its compatable with a Faurodja based player too