[Greg Mandel]

Originally Posted by MrGadget77

This is not good news for me then. It indicates that unless the layer change is lightning fast, then the same problem will happen. Music dvds is where this would be of annoyance when you want to listen to a specific track.
Oops, just re-read your post, so going to next chapter doesn't have this audio issue?

Okay, I've just gone and done some testing for you. Next/Previous chapter is pretty instantaneous, with no sound dip.

I think I have found a layer change (Terminator 2 Special Edition, R2 81mins 6 seconds). The layer change is instantaneous, with no sound dip/pause, but there is as far as I can tell one skipped frame on the video that is completely repeatable (even in slo-mo) at exactly the same spot. If you blink or you're not sensitised you'll miss it, there's no sound dip cue for you to notice it. It is between dialogue, but I can't detect any dip in sound on the background noise.

Like I said though, there is a momentary dip at the beginning of a title. I've even heard it when you switch menus (for instance when you go from the main menu to the sound setup on the T2 disc). I think it's buffering or seeking, and it only happens for that one half a second right at the beginning of a new title.

[unique]

my 696 has turned up via city link from KKE, so i'll give it a bash tonight. just need to think of a first movie to test it with, and should it be pal to check for jaggies or ntsc. maybe donnie darko directors cut DTS, i think thats R2, i have the R1 normal cut. i haven't watched that in a while

[rickardl]

Originally Posted by unique

my 696 has turned up via city link from KKE, so i'll give it a bash tonight. just need to think of a first movie to test it with, and should it be pal to check for jaggies or ntsc. maybe donnie darko directors cut DTS, i think thats R2, i have the R1 normal cut. i haven't watched that in a while

Check out how this scene from Star Wars II Attack of the Clones looks:
For R1, chapter 11, at 31m.35s.
For R2, should be at 30m.19s or something close.

(pictures taken from an old projector review)

[kinja]

[QUOTE=rickardl]Check out how this scene from Star Wars II Attack of the Clones looks:

Rickardl

What equipment were you playing the movie on? Could you post a little more information on each shot, i.e: player, screen and resolution.

Thanks

[kinja]

OOps

Sorry just saw the edit you made...

[unique]

Originally Posted by rickardl

Check out how this scene from Star Wars II Attack of the Clones looks:




(pictures taken from an old projector review)

if you tell me the chapter/time i can do as i have the R2 copies of all the SW movies. i'm not in the mood to watch the whole movie tho

[rickardl]

Originally Posted by unique

if you tell me the chapter/time i can do as i have the R2 copies of all the SW movies. i'm not in the mood to watch the whole movie tho

For R1, chapter 11, at 31m.35s.
For R2, should be at 30m.19s or something close.

[unique]

Originally Posted by rickardl

For R1, chapter 11, at 31m.35s.
For R2, should be at 30m.19s or something close.

i just checked that bit, i had it on 720p on the pio505, you definately get the jaggies, when the thing lands, and sits and then goes back, its jaggies like crazy. altho i must say the PQ is a lot better than the sammy 950. ep2 was one of the discs i used for demoing

[Greg Mandel]

Originally Posted by unique

i just checked that bit, i had it on 720p on the pio505, you definately get the jaggies, when the thing lands, and sits and then goes back, its jaggies like crazy. altho i must say the PQ is a lot better than the sammy 950. ep2 was one of the discs i used for demoing

Is that an upscaling artifact? Can you check it at 576? I've seen very little to no jaggies on my CRT at standard res. Maybe I haven't found any worst case images yet.

[rickardl]

Originally Posted by unique

i just checked that bit, i had it on 720p on the pio505, you definately get the jaggies, when the thing lands, and sits and then goes back, its jaggies like crazy. altho i must say the PQ is a lot better than the sammy 950. ep2 was one of the discs i used for demoing

Did you try any other mode besides 720p?
by the way, at what chapter/time was that scene in the R2 version?

[Barzo]

Originally Posted by unique

altho i must say the PQ is a lot better than the sammy 950. ep2 was one of the discs i used for demoing

Eh? The 950 does not have any jaggies, although the pic probably is a bit softer than Pioneer pics (I'm judging against the Pio 575 which has the same jaggies problem). Also, in my experience, the Samsung also tracks motion more smoothly. Try the battle scenes in LOTR: ROTK or the opening sequence of LOTR: TTT (the snow capped mountain panning past) to see what I mean. It is VERY disappointing to see that the new 696 continues the Mediatek/Pioneer tradition of poor PAL Prog Scan pics. I found these jaggies impossible to live with in my main source, just as much as I found MB from the Faroudja chipset in my ex-Panasonic S97 distracting. To me, the Samsung is the best compromise between the two, even if it never really scales the best pic heights of either, due to a slightly soft look.

Pioneer (and others) do not really seem to care about the PAL market, otherwise they would find a fix (if possible) or use another off-the-shelf chipset.

Originally Posted by Greg Mandel

Okay, I've just gone and done some testing for you. Next/Previous chapter is pretty instantaneous, with no sound dip.

I think I have found a layer change (Terminator 2 Special Edition, R2 81mins 6 seconds). The layer change is instantaneous, with no sound dip/pause, but there is as far as I can tell one skipped frame on the video that is completely repeatable (even in slo-mo) at exactly the same spot. If you blink or you're not sensitised you'll miss it, there's no sound dip cue for you to notice it. It is between dialogue, but I can't detect any dip in sound on the background noise.

Like I said though, there is a momentary dip at the beginning of a title. I've even heard it when you switch menus (for instance when you go from the main menu to the sound setup on the T2 disc). I think it's buffering or seeking, and it only happens for that one half a second right at the beginning of a new title.

Thanks, sounds like it is worth buying.

[unique]

Originally Posted by rickardl

Did you try any other mode besides 720p?
by the way, at what chapter/time was that scene in the R2 version?

i didn't try other modes, will try later today. i didn't notice the time, i went to about chapter 10 or 11 and just fast forwarded, it was quite easy to spot it around the 30 minute mark. i just kept the settings to "standard" rather than "fine" as the higher mode didn't look good on the sammy 950 normally. i'll have a better play about with things today. that might just be a difficult scene. in watching donnie darko it looked good, i think better than the 950, but of course thats not real testing as i didn't do direct comparison, the dvd could potentially have looked just as good on another player

[unique]

Originally Posted by Barzo

Eh? The 950 does not have any jaggies, although the pic probably is a bit softer than Pioneer pics (I'm judging against the Pio 575 which has the same jaggies problem). Also, in my experience, the Samsung also tracks motion more smoothly. Try the battle scenes in LOTR: ROTK or the opening sequence of LOTR: TTT (the snow capped mountain panning past) to see what I mean. It is VERY disappointing to see that the new 696 continues the Mediatek/Pioneer tradition of poor PAL Prog Scan pics. I found these jaggies impossible to live with in my main source, just as much as I found MB from the Faroudja chipset in my ex-Panasonic S97 distracting. To me, the Samsung is the best compromise between the two, even if it never really scales the best pic heights of either, due to a slightly soft look.

Pioneer (and others) do not really seem to care about the PAL market, otherwise they would find a fix (if possible) or use another off-the-shelf chipset.

i didnt say the 950 had jaggies, i think as you say the 950 had a softer picture, and the 696 was noticably sharper, which at first look i personally preferred. i'll just see how i get on with it over the next few days. most of the discs i play are ntsc, so i don't watch pal discs that much

unfortunately i dont have a camera to take screen shorts, i had a loan of one for a while but gave it back the other week

[Barzo]

Originally Posted by unique

i didnt say the 950 had jaggies, i think as you say the 950 had a softer picture, and the 696 was noticably sharper, which at first look i personally preferred. i'll just see how i get on with it over the next few days. most of the discs i play are ntsc, so i don't watch pal discs that much

unfortunately i dont have a camera to take screen shorts, i had a loan of one for a while but gave it back the other week

If you use mostly NTSC material, then I'm sure the Pioneer is a steal. It seems to mimic the basic characteristics of the 575. In this case, there is no doubting the general excellence of the pic without the interlacing jaggies. If you do have PAL discs, the following three are VERY distracting on the poor deinterlacing/jaggies front:

- Star Wars Episode 4 - titles and opening chapter (jaggies on titles, top of imperial star destroyer and R2D2)
- Shaun of the Dead - third or fourth chapter, when Shaun leaves for work. Wall behind him and all cars suffer jaggies.
- Dawn of the Dead (2003) - chapter 7 or 8 - roof top shooting. There is a telephone wire between rooves which comes across as a stepped diagonal line.

I'd also be intrigued to know what the upscaling is like at 720p on something like, say, King Kong (2005) which is a good, modern transfer.

[Greg Mandel]

Originally Posted by Barzo

If you use mostly NTSC material, then I'm sure the Pioneer is a steal. It seems to mimic the basic characteristics of the 575. In this case, there is no doubting the general excellence of the pic without the interlacing jaggies. If you do have PAL discs, the following three are VERY distracting on the poor deinterlacing/jaggies front:

Those were criticisms of the 490 too, but the 696 uses a different chip, and doesn't seem to share these problems as far as I can tell. I'm really not seeing any jaggies, but then my setup is probably different from what a lot of other people here are using (no upscaling, no HDMI, CRT, etc). I have been looking out for high contrast diagonal edges to see if I can spot them and mostly on PAL material.

There was a massive difference between setting my TV to deinterlace, and allowing the 696 to do it, with the 696 being much better quality, so it's not like I'm just being dumb and not seeing a jaggy when it's there.

You keep talking about the 575 and saying the 696 has these problems but I think this isn't bourne out by people posting here who actually have the 696 and like it's picture quality.

[Spoonman2]

99% of my discs are NTSC, because I can`t live with PAL speedup. I don`t have any issues atall.

So-far the player is still getting a big thumbs up from me, and have left it at 720p

[Barzo]

Originally Posted by Greg Mandel

You keep talking about the 575 and saying the 696 has these problems but I think this isn't bourne out by people posting here who actually have the 696 and like it's picture quality.

There is evidence from others of the 'jaggies'. This is what I am basing my 'suppositions' on. Also, I'm not trying to ruin anyone's enjoyment of the product - if you are happy with it, then that is really all that matters. Just trying to determine whether the 696 avoids the 575 problems, which it appears it does not. There is, at least, conflicting evidence as to whether it does or not. Please don't feel that I am deliberately 'knocking' your player. As you say, I don't own one, just a 575, but from current postings (and postings from unique) I don't think I'll be adding the 696 to my AV equipment.

[unique]

Originally Posted by Barzo

There is evidence from others of the 'jaggies'. This is what I am basing my 'suppositions' on. Also, I'm not trying to ruin anyone's enjoyment of the product - if you are happy with it, then that is really all that matters. Just trying to determine whether the 696 avoids the 575 problems, which it appears it does not. There is, at least, conflicting evidence as to whether it does or not. Please don't feel that I am deliberately 'knocking' your player. As you say, I don't own one, just a 575, but from current postings (and postings from unique) I don't think I'll be adding the 696 to my AV equipment.

if your happy with the 950 and it's niggles don't bother you that much, theres probably no reason to go for the 696 as it has the same features. it's a matter of taste if you prefer the softer or sharper look (and the affects relating to each)

my reasons to buy were partly as i wanted a decent performing silver soloured pioneer player with hdmi and universal sacd/dvda and MR support to match my current pio setup, and as i wanted a similar performing hdmi/sacd/dvda second player for the bedroom. when i heard the 490 had the jaggies problem i was put off, but when the first reports seemed to suggest the 696 didn't have that problem i placed my order

when i set it up, the picture looked sharper than the 950 (when i was sitting about 18-24" in front of the screen) checking the SW ep2 dvd. whilst it still has jaggies, i never noticed any problems with the pic whilst watching donnie darko DC R2 pal, but that could be cuz i'm sitting far enough away not to notice (or i need my eyes tested/new glasses - no joke)

[Greg Mandel]

Originally Posted by Barzo

- Star Wars Episode 4 - titles and opening chapter (jaggies on titles, top of imperial star destroyer and R2D2)

Can you give me a few timecodes for worst case scenarios here (otherwise I can just guess)? This is the only DVD on your list that I have. If my ancient digital camera will hold a charge and can photograph a CRT, I'll see if I can get some stills in order to help the forum as a whole with more information.

I have noticed it is possible to find lines that look perfectly smooth in motion that look slightly jagged when paused, but I'm still not seeing very much of that. It looks to me like pausing is showing me an interlaced field, rather than a progressive frame, but I could be wrong there.

[Barzo]

Originally Posted by Greg Mandel

Can you give me a few timecodes for worst case scenarios here (otherwise I can just guess)? This is the only DVD on your list that I have. If my ancient digital camera will hold a charge and can photograph a CRT, I'll see if I can get some stills in order to help the forum as a whole with more information.

I have noticed it is possible to find lines that look perfectly smooth in motion that look slightly jagged when paused, but I'm still not seeing very much of that. It looks to me like pausing is showing me an interlaced field, rather than a progressive frame, but I could be wrong there.

Hi Greg,

Will post timings this evening when I get back from work. I'm not talking about paused pics, btw, and I think you are probably right in your assessment of why those might look jagged. From memory, the slanting titles in the first chapter are full of jaggies, as is the top of the star destroyer, etc on the second - opening sequence of the film. Will note exact timings, as I said.

[Dave Williamson]

Hi

I'm new to all of this home cinema malarky so please excuse my ignorance which will no doubt become apparant as this post develops... I have a few questions and also a few comments about the Pio 490V DVD player that I've just purchased and connected.

Having just recently had delivery of a Pioneer 506XDE plasma, DV-490V player, VSX-916K AV amp, plus B&W FPM speakers etc I was very keen to read this thread on the supplied DVD player but then very dissapointed to hear some of the comments about the PAL upscaling problems.

Even though my front room is still resembling a building site with wires hanging, walls chased, no carpet etc I was gagging to see the panel up and running, so after my brother and I had finished temporarily wall mounting the plasma I couldn't help but connect the media box and DVD just to see some moving pics on my lovely new screen.

I'd previously printed out a sticky thread about setting up and running-in the Pioneers plasma's from the plasma forum and used that to immediately change a lot of 'User' settings on the screen before I actually fired up the DVD.

The first DVD I used was Shrek 2, followed quickly by Black Hawk Down and then Sin City (the only DVD's I could get my hands on at short notice)... Now I don't know if I'm too much of a perfectionist but I wasn't actually 'blown away'... happy yes, but now Wow!!!!.

Of course I was also aware that the picture should improve over time, the settings have all been reduced for running in and that I'm also using a budget DVD but I kind of felt the picture appeared too soft at times, not the incredible detail I was expecting but worse than that I suffered some of the issues described in this thread.

For example I had the band of moving image at the top of the screen during Shrek, albiet a very thin strip it was there all the same, although I only noticed it on Shrek which seemed to be the only movie that actually filled the whole screen, the other two having the black bars top and bottom.

All 3 DVD's were PAL and so it would appear that this truly is a fault with this particular player, but other things I suffered were when Shrek and Donkey are walking through the forest forexample, the large palm fronds were kind of scrolling, not the best description I know but not sure what else to call it, is this also called 'crawling'??..

I found this happened on other scenes too, not everywhere, just certain colours and textures would seem to vibrate or scroll, I'm putting this firmly down to the problems with this DVD player and not the plasma itself, which is as far as I know is a highly regarded panel by most, especially if fed by a good source.

Other issues I noticed were on Sin City, for example when a lighter was lit the flame had small flickering horizontal black lines running through it as did a white shirt, whites in general appeared to be effected on this DVD. Generally I found on all 3 DVD's that scrolling text or text in general had a shimmer or some sort of wierd thing going on, maybe I'm wrong in expecting it all to look rock solid but as I say I'm new to this whole scene so not too sure what is regarded as acceptable.

So, i'm wondering, are there any settings or things that I could change that may help reduce or stop these problems (PAL upscaling aside) any suggestions that will improve matters please guys

I've ran the player at 720p and also 1080i and to tell the truth I couldn't really notice any difference so I'm leaving it at 720p for now.. the HDMI cable I used to connect to the Media box was a cheap £25 one given as part of the deal and this leads me to another question...

I've read differing opinions on the necessary quality of the HDMI cable... some say "It's a digital cable and therefore as long as it can deliver the 0's and 1's then it's doing its job and you don't have to pay for expensive cables"... but then others say that they have seen definite improvements after replacing with a quality (read expensive) cable.. After spending over five grand on this little lot I'd hate to think that I'm impacting quality because of a cheapo HDMI cable and would be more than willing to buy another as long as I was going to gain an improvement..... Although I'm aware that even the most expensive cable cannot make a budget player play like a top of the range one, but as explained this DVD player is intended as a short stop gap...

So, I'd be very interested in the general concensus, are all HDMI leads created equal and as such save my money to be spent elswhere or will I see an improvement? Thanks guys

Generally though, without the nitpicking, I was pleased with the initial outing, I'm thinking that if it looks this nice while having reduced running-in settings, while still being brand new and not had time to improve with age and while running a budget DVD player then there can only be good times to come. I'm now intending to contact the shop that I bought everything from and request a DVD player change, I'm keen to find if the other discussed player on this thread is going to be the one of choice until HD-DVD players arrive in full.

Thank you for your time and any advice you guys can give a complete noob

Regards
Dave.

[McKinley]

Originally Posted by Barzo

Hi Greg,

Will post timings this evening when I get back from work. I'm not talking about paused pics, btw, and I think you are probably right in your assessment of why those might look jagged. From memory, the slanting titles in the first chapter are full of jaggies, as is the top of the star destroyer, etc on the second - opening sequence of the film. Will note exact timings, as I said.

The issue hwere is possibly that Greg is running a CRT, rather than an LCD. It's quite possible that the jaggies (if they are there) don't show up as much on a CRT. Depends on the size of the CRT too.

[rickardl]

Originally Posted by Greg Mandel

I have noticed it is possible to find lines that look perfectly smooth in motion that look slightly jagged when paused, but I'm still not seeing very much of that. It looks to me like pausing is showing me an interlaced field, rather than a progressive frame, but I could be wrong there.

It will look jagged for sure, don't even bother with it.

[Greg Mandel]

Originally Posted by Barzo

Hi Greg,

Will post timings this evening when I get back from work. I'm not talking about paused pics, btw, and I think you are probably right in your assessment of why those might look jagged. From memory, the slanting titles in the first chapter are full of jaggies, as is the top of the star destroyer, etc on the second - opening sequence of the film. Will note exact timings, as I said.

Well don't knock youself out as my camera battery is knackered and won't hold a charge. As it's probably about ten years old, I doubt I'll be replacing it unless I can find one very cheap.

I did look at those two spots, and the subsequent points when we have closeups of R2D2's "head" in that opening scene, and there's no jaggyness, on R2D2 or the star destroyer, especially when the image is moving rather than paused. There's a few places where R2D2's head is rotating, and you can get a jaggy on some of the lines on his head when paused, but they disappear and turn into solid lines when playing normally.

The only place there is some jaggyness is on a few of the upright letters on the Star Wars scroller at the beginning. For instance, when the large letters "A New Hope" appear at the bottom and travel up the screen you can see slight jaggies on the upright of the "H" and a few of the other letters, but these manifest themselves more as a slight "crawling" on the edge of the letters when playing.

[Greg Mandel]

Originally Posted by Dave Williamson

I found this happened on other scenes too, not everywhere, just certain colours and textures would seem to vibrate or scroll, I'm putting this firmly down to the problems with this DVD player and not the plasma itself, which is as far as I know is a highly regarded panel by most, especially if fed by a good source.

I saw a little of this during the course of setting up my 696 (first time you see the corporation towerblocks in Bladerunner), but it's gone now, so switching to progressive, unplugging the scarts, etc or something I did during the setup has made it go away completely. You might find you can cure it by changing the settings to what you intend to use and see what happens.

IIRC it's almost like a texture shimmer or shake on a computer game.

BTW, does anyone knows if the 490 or 696 play mkv H264 files?

[David Mackenzie]

but I kind of felt the picture appeared too soft at times, not the incredible detail I was expecting but worse than that I suffered some of the issues described in this thread.

That's because most DVDs are intentionally blurred to stop them from flickering on standard interlaced CRT TVs. Time for you to order an HD DVD player I think

Shrek which seemed to be the only movie that actually filled the whole screen, the other two having the black bars top and bottom.

Not sure if you were asking, but that's correct. Some movies are wider than widescreen TVs so have black bands on screen.

is this also called 'crawling'??..

What cable are you using to connect to the TV?

on all 3 DVD's that scrolling text or text in general had a shimmer or some sort of wierd thing going on, maybe I'm wrong in expecting it all to look rock solid but as I say I'm new to this whole scene so not too sure what is regarded as acceptable.

That to me sounds like you're describing the PAL motion problem - the player isn't handling the Deinterlacing properly.

I have bought DV-696AV-S two days ago. It has firmware version: YDC6502C and Region 2.
I don't have hd tv so I can not say what PQ it has.

Can somebody tell if there is some tested firmware for it? Titles for divX movies are a little bit small for me so I would like to modify this with new firmware that supports Croatian language for titles.

[rickardl]

Originally Posted by Chome

I have bought DV-696AV-S two days ago. It has firmware version: YDC6502C and Region 2.
I don't have hd tv so I can not say what PQ it has.

Can somebody tell if there is some tested firmware for it? Titles for divX movies are a little bit small for me so I would like to modify this with new firmware that supports Croatian language for titles.

Try the bigfont variant here http://www.pioneerfaq.info/english/d...tion=Firmwares