[Paulo Abreu]

Hi guys,

If you could choose between one of these (they cost the same price to me), wich one would you pick? I know Pioneer is one year newer but the guy at the shop guarantees me that concerning image/sound quality, Denon beats Pioneer.

He mainly sells Denon so I guess his opinion is biased, wanted to know from the experts here.

Thanks and Regards

If they cost the same, my rule of thumb is to get the unit that weighs more

[MaxFischer]

I went for the Pio 989 over the Denon 3910 becasuse the Pio will do 480i/576i over HDMI, so provides a better upgrade path if I want to buy a video processor down the line, and because of the horror stories on here about MBE on the Denon.

However, the player has not yet been delivered, so I can't really tell you whether I made a good decision.

[Paulo Abreu]

[QUOTE=MaxFischer]I went for the Pio 989 over the Denon 3910 becasuse the Pio will do 480i/576i over HDMI, so provides a better upgrade path if I want to buy a video processor down the line, and because of the horror stories on here about MBE on the Denon.

Thanks for feedback Max! One thing I have many doubts is about the upscaling ... AFAIK Denon uses Faroudja DCDi technology fot his and Pioneer has "its own" way of doing it - I never saw a comparison but in general, how far is Faroudja better than "proprertary alghoritms" like the ones used by Pioneer or Sony in DVP-NS92V as example? if the question makes sense ...

I saw today a Denon 3910 playing (HDMI) and liked very much the image - AFAIK, the 2910 is very like 3910 concerning video, don't know how it would perform on my new Sony Bravia 40 inch LCD. any thougths?

Regards
Paulo Abreu

[Timbo21]

Although the Faroudja can be great, it also can be the cause of Macroblocking. It really depends on the TV/display you are using it with. My Denon 3910 doesn't suffer from MB via HDMI when paired with my projector, however it does via component; and many have had lots of MB problems with 2910/3910.

The 2910 is a mid range Denon product, whereas the 989 is Pioneer's top of the range. I have heard from two different sources that via HDMI the Pioneer beats the 3910, but it can depend on your display, as I mentioned.

If you can get an extensive demo with your screen, that would be the best bet.

[gandley]

the pioneer scaling is very good with fine detail resolved very clearly. There is also less video noise, and i mean less.

funny thing is DCDI actually is for video based deinterlacing and does not really benefit film based stuff. look it up for yourself. but the film based deinterlacing of the faroudja chip is pretty good as well and is a little better than the pioneer though in normal viewing i doubt you would really notice.

MBE was covered, but it is a serious issue.

Like the 3910 CUE is still an issue but here i would say the 3910 is better becuse the faroudja chipset does an excellent job of masking it, though you can tell its masked.
The 989 on very rare occasions has issues but to put into perspective i have seen 1 film with it in. and it is only very slight (even with the PJ sreen i have to focus hard to see it).

Personaly i much prefer the pioneer, but thats also because it features interlaced out via HDMI.
the price of the pioneer has just gone up as well, it was £799 which was pretty good but i think its gone up to £850+, but there may some places at the cheaper price.
where the 989 cant be touched is noise surpression, and fine detail clarity.

Theres a nifty setting in the HDMI menu called HDMI detail, with this you really can get a defined image without adding any ringing or increasing artifacts.

I think the Denon 3920 (and i guess 2920)is also due soon but have no concrete info. Would be great if they stuck HQV in there to surprise every one?

[Joe Fernand]

Hello Paulo

I think your dealer is wearing blinkers

Good as the DVD-2910 is its not entirely flawless and some of its shortcomings are more obvious than any shortfalls in the Pioneer DV-868AVi and DV-989AVi.

The Denon DVD-2910 and DVD-3910 use a Faroudja DCDi FLI-2310 Deinterlacer - the video up-conversion on these player is (I believe) provided by 'in-house' processing rather than a 'bought in' branded chip set.

The Pioneer DV-989AVi uses Pioneers own VQE9 Deinterlacer again combined with an 'in-house' video up conversion processor.

I'd have to say I've seen less unwanted artefacts using the Pioneer players over the Denon players and as others have pointed out Pioneer also provide the ability to Output Interlaced non scaled YUV and RGB via HDMI on the DV-989AVi which is very handy if you do ever want to investigate the extra performance available to you using an external Video Processor.

Best regards

Joe

PS And I don't have to get to know the Pioneer service/returns procedures as often as I do with Denon!!!

You were right to go for the 989 now insofar as it is a brand new model. The 2910 and 3910 are to be superceeded next year by the 2920 and 3920. Early in the year too, from what I hear. And by the sound of things, no-one that has posted views on the 989 seems disappointed (rather the opposite).

[Thekop]

Originally Posted by MaxFischer

I went for the Pio 989 over the Denon 3910 becasuse the Pio will do 480i/576i over HDMI, so provides a better upgrade path if I want to buy a video processor down the line, and because of the horror stories on here about MBE on the Denon.

However, the player has not yet been delivered, so I can't really tell you whether I made a good decision.

I can't understand why anyone would buy something like a Pioneer 989 in hoping to improve it further with an upscaler ? What do you think you're paying for in the 989 then ? ... You're making most of it redundant !

I can rest assure you that MBE is non-existent on a Denon DVD3910 through my set up..The DCDi chip it uses is a classy upscaler in its own right... Read the reviews, then trust your own eyes.

To buy something without auditioning it is a recipe for disaster as well. But then that's what happens when you let other people on here spend your hard earned money for you

[Will Scarlet]

Originally Posted by colin2305

You were right to go for the 989 now insofar as it is a brand new model. The 2910 and 3910 are to be superceeded next year by the 2920 and 3920. Early in the year too, from what I hear. And by the sound of things, no-one that has posted views on the 989 seems disappointed (rather the opposite).

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this line of reasoning at all. Since when has being a brand new model been a guarantee of anything, other than being the most recent? And what has the fact that the 2910 and 3910 are slated for replacement next year, got to do with their ability to perform?
Anyway, good luck in whatever you choose to do Paulo.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello Thekop

Using an external Video Processor brings so much more to the party than simply re scaling the pixels; plus how many folk have a Display that's an exact match to the up-scaled formats available in most up-sampling DVD players.

I bet too that 99% of folk with a DVD player and AV Receiver use a 5:1 Coaxial or Optical Out on the DVD player - seems mad don't you think when the DVD payer has a built in surround decoder and analogue Outs

The Faroudja DCDi technology is about deinterlacing not scaling - as before you have to combine the DCDi with a Scaling chip set if you want to convert 480i and 576i to 720P and 1080i; on its own the DCDi technology will convert to 480P and 576P.

See http://gnss.com/technology.phtml

If you want the best combine a well built DVD player (Outputting interlaced non scaled YUV over Analogue or Digital) with an External Video processor configured to give you best results with your Display or Displays.

Best regards

Joe

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by Thekop

To buy something without auditioning it is a recipe for disaster as well. But then that's what happens when you let other people on here spend your hard earned money for you

The advice given on this forum is proven over and over again to be the best anywhere. Better than magazines, owners, shops or even personnal auditions. And I would say it is sometimes good enough to buy unseen, as I have just done today.

Nick

Originally Posted by Will Scarlet

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this line of reasoning at all. Since when has being a brand new model been a guarantee of anything, other than being the most recent? And what has the fact that the 2910 and 3910 are slated for replacement next year, got to do with their ability to perform?
Anyway, good luck in whatever you choose to do Paulo.

I was a bit too lazy to expand properly on my post. I looked at the 3910 myself three weeks ago with a view to purchasing, and tested it fairly thoroughly. I thought the player was excellent, but though I was happy with its performance, I was pretty concerned to hear that it was going to be replaced at around March next year. That didn't seem like long to wait, and I prefer a bit less built-in obsolescence in my equipment - particularly when it's expensive. At around the same time that I was viewing the 3910 and other players, people in this forum were starting to take delivery of the Pioneer 989. Some of these people had already seen, tested or owned 3910s, and the verdict seemed to be that the Pioneer was a better performer. Gandley in particular, even did some back to back testing in his Pioneer 989 thread, posting a few screen shots to boot.

Now I don't know about you, but I think that going out to buy a 3910 now would probably lead to some regret in 2 or 3 months time, if it turns out that the 3920 is introduced with a bunch of worthwhile improvements over the 3910.

That said, the imminent replacement of the 2910 and 3910 has nothing to do with their current ability to perform. So go ahead and buy one by all means.

[MaxFischer]

Originally Posted by Thekop

I can't understand why anyone would buy something like a Pioneer 989 in hoping to improve it further with an upscaler ? What do you think you're paying for in the 989 then ? ... You're making most of it redundant !

I can rest assure you that MBE is non-existent on a Denon DVD3910 through my set up..The DCDi chip it uses is a classy upscaler in its own right... Read the reviews, then trust your own eyes.

To buy something without auditioning it is a recipe for disaster as well. But then that's what happens when you let other people on here spend your hard earned money for you

What Joe Fernand said. Also, an external processor would handle my other sources. Rest assured I wouldn't buy Hi-Fi without auditioning, but PQ is a reasonably objective criterion, so if there is a consensus on here, I feel comfortable following it.

[gandley]

Originally Posted by Thekop

I can't understand why anyone would buy something like a Pioneer 989 in hoping to improve it further with an upscaler ? What do you think you're paying for in the 989 then ? ... You're making most of it redundant !

Well if you have ever seen a dvd player that has been SDI modded and passed through a video processor you would quickly realize that upscaling dvd players do quite a poorish job at the upscaling compared to a dedicated scaler/deinterlacer. The pioneer helps out because it will pass interlaced HDMI, which means if one ever goes for a video processor they wont have to add the cost of the expensive SDI mods.
Even your precious 3910 does an average job at scaling, but to benefit from a video processor you will have to use component or SDI mod.

Also there are MANY who have had problems with the 2910/3910 and MBE, and many who have not. If you fall into the latter camp thats great, but dont be so pushy as to hint there is not an issue when there absolutly is.

Upscaling is also hardly most of what you pay for, its just one feature of many and it is the most hyped feature.
The best standalone dvd player for upscaling is the Denon A1XV, but then they pulled in DVDO to do the job they cant do. if there is going to be a 3920 i bet you will see DVDO for the scaling engine and the poorer 3910 in house effort droped. (actually if you google Denon 3920 you come up with there new amp not a dvd player).

Alot of this is down to personal preference, but i found my 3910 added artifacts that i was just not happy with. You see i did actually own one and sold it because i was a bit dissapointed at the picture.

[Will Scarlet]

Fair points Colin. But all the 3910 being replaced in 2-3 months says to me, is possible price drop. Nice.

[Paulo Abreu]

Thanks Joe,

As far as I understood, the benefic of outputting interlaced signal by the HDMI interface is to use an external deinterlacer/upscaler? I guess there are many options but for a guy like me, for now I'll be plenty satisfied to get the best out of my DVD player without having to add much more equipment... then I'll only have to rethink my audio system and try keep it as simple as possible (like 2.1) - Pioneer seems to be quite good in audio and the i.link interface is a plus too...

Btw, yesterday, the same dealer I mentioned showed me something I got perfectly knocked out ... he has a demo room with a Krell home cinema system (the projector was a Sim2 or something like that) - The image was cool but the SOUND !!! He played a DVD from a Chinese film with a girl dancing and surrounded by drums, I've never heard anything near that on my life - it makes the real cinemas looking like a FM Radio compared with my HIFI

I didn't ask the price of such a system but not surely for my pockets - and I would have to buy a house with 1 km free all around.

Regards

[Will Scarlet]

Paulo the DVD you are referring to is 'House of Flying Daggers' and the chapter he demonstrated was 'Echo Game'. Just in case you want to buy it to demo your new setup to your friends.

To hell with the neighbours. Let them eat cake.

In any event, provided you have it all cranked up to 11, you won't be bothered by the hammering at the door.

[Paulo Abreu]

Thanks Gandley,

I am definitively more interested in the Pioneer that I was yesterday, will give a re-read on your thread again...

The local representative for Pioneer said he would receive a DV-989Avi next week - I asked him the price and he throwed € 1200,00 but that we would get to a "2nd price" .... hmmm...

The funny thing is that the shop that showed me the Denons will order me a Pio DV989Avi if I want and when I asked him the price he said € 1025 and still with more 10% discount ????!!!!! that would make Pio around € 900,00!!! I asked twice " - Are you sure thats the DV-989AVi price?" wich he confirmed.

Regards

Pioneer 989 for 600 pounds? QED.

[Paulo Abreu]

Originally Posted by Will Scarlet

Paulo the DVD you are referring to is 'House of Flying Daggers' and the chapter he demonstrated was 'Echo Game'. Just in case you want to buy it to demo your new setup to your friends.

Exactly Will - I googled it and there are the images I saw!

Man, that was an impressive demo.

Regards

[Will Scarlet]

Yep, full-bitrate DTS soundtrack. Has friends ducking pebbles in my sitting room every time I show it. Scary stuff.

[Paulo Abreu]

Originally Posted by colin2305

Pioneer 989 for 600 pounds? QED.

I am also intriguished but as a reference, he also asked € 900,00 for the Denon 2910 ... what to you think about the Denon price, does it look to short too?

Regards

The Pioneer 989 and 3910 normally cost around the same. The 2910 should be 2 or 300 pounds cheaper. If he's giving the Pioneer away, but the Denons are still at a premium, I'd definitely be more interested in the Pioneer. For it to be a similar bargain, the 2910 should be costing more like 5 or 600 Euro, and the 3910 900 Euro.

That's how I figure it, anyway. Plus, as mentioned before, the 3910 is being replaced shortly.


Not that that doesn't meant that the 2910/3910 isn't fantastic etc etc etc

[gandley]

I must admit, id all these dvd players were playng on the same projector and i had not seen them before, i dont think i could pic one from another, unless i saw MBE, which would be the main give away but if no display showed that it would be tuff, as most of the differences are subjective, personnel preference, feature set, etc. I suspect a good ISF calibration would get them very very close together in terms of overall picture performance, we are after all stuck with the same resolution dvd outputs.

I paid £799 for my pio with a free £40 HDMI lead.

[baldybonce]

Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

If you want the best combine a well built DVD player (Outputting interlaced non scaled YUV over Analogue or Digital) with an External Video processor configured to give you best results with your Display or Displays.



Joe

Joe, which DVD unit would you recommend to work with 3806, 505XDE and LumagenPROHDP?

Brian

[Welwynnick]

Well, in all probability that would be the Arcam DV79 or Pioneer DV989AVi, then.

However, if you have a Lumagen VisionPro HDP, perhaps the obvious answer might be something with SDI output. Perhaps even an Arcam DVD without HDMI, which are much cheaper.

Nick

[Joe Fernand]

Hello Baldybonce

Depending on where your audio requirements lie I'd consider:

Arcam DV29 (HDMI)
Arcam DV27 (with SDI)
Arcam DV79 (HDMI)
Pioneer DV-989AVi (HDMI)

And the Wild card:

SnaZio SZ1350 (YUV) - if you want the ability to view HD content.

Best regards

Joe

[Paulo Abreu]

Hi guys again,

I just phoned the local Pioneer Representative - He HAS the DV-989AVi in stock - I read no more, I'll go there and get it now!

I am so thrilled, maybe there were other options but I am sure I won't get wrong, considering all the feedback I got here - thanks again.

Regards