Am off on Monday next to order a Denon 3910 to go with a 42" Philips 7830 LCD. In terms of connecting the two, am I correct in assuming the best results will be achieved by simply hooking the two to eachother via HDMI?

I noticed yesterday whilst at the AV shop, that there was a lovely ex-demo Denon DVD A11, and wondered if anyone has a view on whether gettting a little bargain on the DVD A11 would represent any sort of alternative? It comes with full warranty etc, so all things being equal, is the 3910 a better video performer?

[Nic Rhodes]

Certainly worth looking at A11 is a very nine player and if you can cut a deal....

[gandley]

be aware though that it shows macroblocking at a worse extent than any over DVD player. I sold my A11 because of this reason.

PQ wise i felt it did better with component, very very nice as long as you dont see the macroblocking bug. with DVI it did exagerate pic noise although gave a slight sharper picture.

In truth i would avoid it and the 3910 (ive had both). (the A11 is good audio wise though, so is a good machine to SDI mod)

[Nic Rhodes]

I won't disagree with the last statement, I think there is better out there, especially the 3910. A11 is better in my book though.

[gandley]

if MBE is not an issue then yeah, i would agree Nic.

[Cable Monkey]

Hook 'em up and take a look. If you are happy with the results then buy the one you want. Throw in a third 'wildcard' though like a suitably equipped Arcam just to get away from any Denon only bias.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I went with the A11, though they are going to loan me a 3910 to bring home on Friday to try them back to back before I have to commit. I figured with the 3920 on its way next year, and given that they gave me a new A11 for as near as dammit the price of the 3910, it was either something obsolete or something nearly obsolete. They even part-exed my old Denon 2800MkII.

Regarding the Arcam that was suggested, I just haven't seen any around. It was tough enough finding somewhere reasonably nearby with a good selection of top-end Denons.

Regarding the Denon players in general, they seem to get fantastic reviews, and to be honest, unless the diferences in performance are cataclysmic, I'm really happy not to have to agonise over whether I should be buying an Arcam, a Pioneer, an Onkyo or a Marantz (all machines that I would consider). I found it tough enough to decide which Denon to buy!

As an aside, I connected the A11 to my Philips PF37 9986 using DVI. At 720P I get an excellent picture (though it can appear a bit 'jerky' in some sequences - I noticed it whilst testing with the opening sequence in Sahara where the camera pans around Dirk Pitts cabin/office) but the picture doesn't take up much of the screen. The borders both left and right are cut, and finish around 2 inches from the left and right screen borders. At 1080i the picture takes up the entire width of the screen, but the picture quality isn't quite as good.

There's nothing I can adjust on the TV itself to improve this. With DVI selected, the Philips goes straight into wide-screen mode (as it should) and I can't play with the picture dimensions. Is this normal?

I'll be interested to see how these Denons fare against my Sony 999ES - IMO, an underrated machine.

Gandley, was reading your last post again. Two things...

1) What is an SDI mod?
2) Regarding what I posted above, do you think I will get better results with component connection to my TV? How much fuzzier will the picture be vs the DVI output?

Also, are there any other mods/updates I should ask/insist on whilst I have these guys fussing over me at the AV shop?

I'm posting for myself at the moment - sorry. Just wanted to throw into the mix that I may ask for the loan of a DVD A1XV while I'm at it. Is this nuts? I'd probably swing one at 2k sterling. Is this lunacy? Does anyone out there have one of these things, and is it worth the premium? I'd love to buy something that I just felt would never need replacing or be topped. At least until the new format players hit the market. Though I am using LCD displays at the moment, the player will ultimately spend pretty much all of its time driving a DLP projector, so on a screen a couple of metres wide, I may well notice improvements not so visible on a 37 or 42" LCD display. I have DVDs in a quantity that requires measurement in hundredweight (a consequence of living in Germany - have you SEEN German TV??), so no Blu-Ray arguments are relevant to me yet.

And in case anyone is wondering, I don't fling money around like this lightly. Spending this money is going to hurt. A lot. I don't want to spoil the boat for the last ha'pence worth of tar, though. And if my system (incl. amp, speakers and projector) is going to cost 15 grand in total, or whatever, the extra grand for the A1XV may not be lunacy after all. Or...

Anyone with an opinion?

[rdt123]

Hi mate,

Having owned both i would say..........

By something like an arcam, for no other reason than the MB. Sure its great in many respects but you don't want to spend £1600 (in my case) only to have friends ask what those funny patches are!

I've said it before and i'll say it again, i have never seen an image as solid as my old D88+ by component

My two peneth

Rob

[Cable Monkey]

Originally Posted by colin2305

I don't want to spoil the boat for the last ha'pence worth of tar, though. And if my system (incl. amp, speakers and projector) is going to cost 15 grand in total, or whatever, the extra grand for the A1XV may not be lunacy after all. Or...

Anyone with an opinion?

I have an opinion, but no experience beyond an Arcam DV79 and Denon DVD 2910/3910. Spending that kind of cash should afford you the right to demo players for as long as you feel is necessary. There is a tendancy to blame dvd players for problems seen when said player works fine with another manufacturers display. The only way to eliminate factors like this is to delay purchase of your player until the rest of the kit is in and demo different players until you find the one you want. It is about finding the right combination, not focusing on one component...

Probably right. I'll keep demo'ing for a bit. Though I am likely to stick with Denon. He has plenty of it, and I like the brick sh**house build quality of their equipment

[gandley]

Originally Posted by colin2305

Gandley, was reading your last post again. Two things...

1) What is an SDI mod?
2) Regarding what I posted above, do you think I will get better results with component connection to my TV? How much fuzzier will the picture be vs the DVI output?

Also, are there any other mods/updates I should ask/insist on whilst I have these guys fussing over me at the AV shop?

SDi is a pure digital connection taken straight from the Mpeg decoder.

you then send this to an external scaler for scaling and deinterlacing. This will bypass any macroblocking issues and in truth give a much better picture than any expensive DVD player. A similar thing is like sending an interlaced HDMI signal to an external processer (which seems to be gaining popularity).

Just make sure the A11`s firmware is up to date(same goes for the 3910)

As for the A1xv, it is very good, i had one on loan but if you are thinking of blowing 2K, i would go the external scaler route which i found to be better overall and your other sources will benefit as well (sky,vhs. etc etc).

personally i did not find the A1xv worth the asking price IMHO, but i did like it

DVI will be sharper depending on your display, but it does not always give a better picture than component. DVI and HDMI do tend to exaggerate image noise and artefacts but its not the same for every dvd player and the display will play its part also.
Component can still produce excellent images that tend to be free of the above issues and no they wont look fuzzy (depending on dvd player). Infact the A11 component out was pin sharp and very detailed.
you will just have to experiment

[fyonn]

Originally Posted by colin2305

and given that they gave me a new A11 for as near as dammit the price of the 3910

wow, I must have got a hell of a deal then. several months ago, I spotted an unloved (dusty, but good condition) denon a11 in sevenoaks which they sold to me for £500. been quite happy with it so far and it's just been upgraded to the -G firmware.

now, as I'm thinking about buying a tosh 37wlt58 lcd screen, I suppose i ought to find that long thread about MB on the a11 to see if I'm at risk. what does MB look like anyways?

actually, I remember plugging it into a samsung lcd at the shop when I had the firmware done. whilst almost everything looked great, highlander (10th anniversary edition) looked shockingly bad, and it was fine when played through my crt (via the a11). is that MB?

dave

[gandley]

whats important to remember is that some discs have MB in the transfer. so on any dvd player everyone has seen some form of MB.

MBE or macroblock-enhanced is the faroudja variant of said 23xx chips.
Looks like alot of dancing blocks than can also tinge in colour. for some reason most noticable in the bankground of an image. can be worse in low light scences but display dependent and bloody ugly.

gandley - thanks for the detailed response. Ultimately, I am chasing the best picture I can get. Now..for the next dumb question...do external scalers come in the same sort of bewildering range and array of products as DVD plyers? Can you recommend one?

Fyonn - never told you what I was paying for a 3910.

[gandley]

with scalers its not so much as choice but more to do with how much one is willing to spend.

they range from say the dvdo HD+ @ £700ish all the way to the new HQV and gennum wonders about to be released which range £1600 and up^^^.

So if one wants the best up and comming ones with HQV and Gennum processing (and why would one not) then its going to cost £££.

However the lumagen HDP, current model is supposed to be very very good and costs £1200 and will soon be updated to do 1080i deinterlacing so will be good for a while. This will accept interlaced via HDMI so could save ££`s on the SDI mods (hence why its nice if a dvd player can do this for you).

But there are a quite a few models about to hit the market as said with HQV and gennum processing that are looking way impressive. (lumagens effort again is looking special. price as usual will vary across different models and makes.)

[fyonn]

Originally Posted by colin2305

Fyonn - never told you what I was paying for a 3910.

very true, but having bought an a11, I've seen a couple go for sale here and some talk of them, I still think I got a decent deal I'm now just hoping that whatever flat tv I get doesn't make it all look awful. time to find read up more I think.

dave

Gandley. You are obviously a bit of an AV- Jedi at this stuff, so if it doesn't wear you down too much, could I beg your forebearance a wee bit longer?


Right. This is (as expected) starting to sound REALLY complicated. Probably knocks the AV1XV on the head for the moment - don't want to throw money away needlessly if there are ways to extract better performance for the same outlay.

Read on this site yesterday that the new Marantz 9600 can output 1080p - is this a big deal? The A11 can output at what seems to be a standard 720 progressive or 1080 interlaced. A scaler obviously does better. Can you quantify this a bit? Or explain where the improvement comes from?

OK - so an external scaler takes signal from the DVD player, and sends it to the display device as a deinterlaced signal (not sure what the scaling part does....makes sure everything is the right size?), and that the signal coming from the external scaler is better than that output directly from the DVD - so much so, that I've read here that even a mediocre player with an external scaler. will give better pictures than Denon's high-faluttin', that'll be 2.5k please sir A1XV.. Umm. With some of the players I am talking about costing 1, 2 and 3 GRAND, why has someone not copped to fitting them with state of the art internal scalers? Why are Denon et al leaving it to aftermarket 'tuners' to improve on the performance of their DVD gear with an external box? Or why are the manufacturers of some of the excellent external scalers you referred to not making DVD players?

I expect there are answers to these questions, but before setting out on a 'turbo box' to sit alongside my DVD player, I need someone to explain that it 'takes energy from the exhaust outflow, and uses it to drive an impeller which shoves air at multiples of atmospheric pressure into the engine at the intake cycle, hence more O2, hence bigger bangs, hence more power, hence etc'

fyonn - you got a great deal. Cheaper than me, so you can be happy 'bout that.

[gandley]

1080p output is fine if your display can handle that natively. which for most is probaly NO!. Depends on the quality the marantz can deliver. (perhaps they have hidden the gennum chip in there) but i know the marantz 9600 was delayed so they could get interlaced HDMI onboard, so they cant be that confident of its ability?

A scaler will use better processing to keep the integrity of the image (and sharpness) to a higher resolution, and does a rather good job at it at the same time, mainly because that is its sole purpose.
The image also gets deinterlaced by said unit and again with high quality and frequently updated software.
the A1xv has good stuff init, the problem is you cant use that good stuff for anything else so is kind of a waste. Might as well get an external video processor and let all your sources look good/better. also with the denon you cannot use custom resolutions which can be a pain. Some good quality plasmas have a 1366x768 output....not supported by the A1xv, so you end up doing more scaling again reducing some quality.

[Welwynnick]

DVD players are the LAST place you should have a scaler! The Denon A1XV does have the latest and greatest video processor (it's the only one that does), but it does not have the flexibility of a proper scaler to pixel-match it's output to the display. Upscaling DVD players usually output 576p, 720p and 1080i. Which no current plasmas display, AFAIK. So they will have to apply a second round of video processing, which inevitably degrades the picture.

As far as I can tell, video processing in DVDs and amplifiers is generally a waste of time. For the best picture, it should all be done in a stand alone processor, or in the display, nowhere else.

There are one or two VP manufacturers who have cottoned on to this. I believe that Immersive produce a proper DVD player and scaler, but it is very expensive.

If it is the best picture you want, I think the usual answer at the moment is a Linn or Arcam DVD and a Lumagen Vision HDP. Cheaper and better than the Denon, great sounding, future proof, and infinitely more versatile.

regards, Nick

Well, I'm pretty much stuck with a Denon now (though I'm not feeling hard done by, truth be told). But I can still decide WHICH Denon to go for. So assuming I go for a Lumagen External Scaler, which of the following Denons would I be best off with...(the display devices to be used will be a Philips 42" 9830, and a Marantz Projector - the VP12S4)?

The Denon 3910, the A-11, an A1, or the A1XV? (I know you won't recommend the A1XV, but I included it anyway). I could get a new A1 still, for about the same as the A11. It has no HDMI or DVi, but as mentioned in this thread already, I may not be so worse off using component. Especially if, as I am assuming, the external scaler is going to bring a whole new layer of improvement to the equation.

Cheers you guys for all the great advice. I hadn't really considered an external scaler.

[gandley]

Well if i had the Marantz S4 PJ then i would just feed HDMI 576i/480i striaght into it, as it does except it (one of the very few displays that do).
The S4 has Genum processing so im not sure the current lumagen will better that. in fact using a Denon dvd player for the S4 is just the wrong choice TBH.
The philips will benefit for sure with current external scalers as long as you can bypass the (if it uses it, cant remember) pixel plus stuff.

The A1xv is good but if you have all ready paid for quality deinterlacing in the S4, would be a shame to pay out all over again.

Well...the guy DOES have other stuff I can buy to save aggravation. He's got some nice ELAC 209.2 speakers on offer. What would YOU buy to feed DVD signal to the S4. Whilst I know that the Denon players seem to get a LOT of bashing here in the forums, the AV magazines seem to absolutely love 'em. Picked up a German mag today, and came across yet more profusely glowing views (and a 6 player group test win) for the 1920. Elsewhere, a reviewer was suggesting selling internal organs to get his hands on an A1XV. Well, I suppose when you get sufficiently into something, one can come to a realisation fairly quickly that the supposed experts don't actually know everything. Funny thing is though, whereas I frequently disagree with what specialist journos write about on the subjects where I am expert, the differences of opinion are usually divergent by degrees rather than absolute, and may be based on more subjective than empirical data.

I'd consider a Marantz player. The Onkyo stuff has been recommended to me, though the 1000 doesn't seem to rate as highly as the A1XV from what I've read. Feckit - an earlier comment had me trawling the 'States to find out about Immersive machines. I guess I'd consider an Arcam, but I've never seen one, and they look a bit low-rent in pictures (I'm sure I'll get blasted for that comment. However, at what high-end DVD players cost, I want to be able to slap a set of wheels onto this thing and drive around frightening the locals).

Anyway. Step up to bat here people. What is the best DVD player out there for relatively sane money (up to two grandish - LINN Unidisk in the heel of the hunt, probably isn't worth the kidney I'd have to sell to get one. Or the divorce.)

This is worse than buying a house.

If the S4 is to be the primary display device, it may be that I no longer need an external scaler - right? Ultimately, the Philips LCD is travelling to a different room, where it will be hooked up to my Sony 999, which is absolutley grand. I'm really only going to obsess about one set up - the one involving the S4, so no nasty comments about the Sony.

How 'bout the aforementioned Marantz 9600? Fairly new, any feedback on this thing yet?

[Nic Rhodes]

Feed the S4 interlaced HDMI from the Arcam 29.

[gandley]

i doubt you will see any difference if you feed the S4 HDMI interlaced from the Arcam DV79, 29 and pio989 and marantz 9600 over the A1xv doing its thing. could be minor differences and your S4 needs to have the very latest firmware upgrade as that realy boosted performance of the gennum chipset, according to Dan miller marantz usa.

Marantz 9600 would be great for the S4 as that does interlaced HDMI as well but you will have to confirm that here in the UK, but it also looks nice and does everything and has almost everything as well.

[gandley]

colin for the S4 info look here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ght=dan+miller

Also on the Denon front i dont think its being bashed as such. There is quite a zealous following for the Denons. personaly think they are quite good but they can be a hassle as well.
I still use a 2900 to reference from, as that produces such a good pic and has the bestlayer change ever. I think it still betters the 3910 except for HDMI sharpness perhaps. As for mag reviews Denon always scores high.
Same with a coulple of other makes i can think of that do not always deserve the marks they get.
That said DVD is now a low res format so all the high end units are pulling the very last bit of trickery to glean a better pic. You are right though, from £700 up there is not a huge differnce in PQ. Its more the fine details and when owning a projector these details start to count.

[Nic Rhodes]

I was thinking leaving the video to the projector and the audio to the player. The Arcam in the mode satisfies both demanding jobs.

[gandley]

marantz 9500 sounded excellent as well, 9600 could be better. I dont think the Arcam units have much lead here for Audio TBH. if any

9600 would be a better package due to the extra features, i think?
Also depends if colin is using a decent CD player already, i guess he would be if he is looking at high end kit.
Colin what Amp are you using?

But Arcam would be fine for sure