[Avi]

Originally Posted by PeterZ

I own this unit and can confirm (from the printed manual) that the above statement is not true. The DBP-2012 definitely supports DSD to DAC (via HDMI only) to Receivers capable of decoding DSD bitstream. I'm going off what the manual says and have not tried it as my AV receiver doesn't have HDMI (that will be changing soon though )

Just to clarify there were several elements to my original post.

1) DSD output via HDMI which wasn't an option on earlier high end Denon Blu-ray models. From what you say this is now an output option.

2) DSD direct to DAC and by this I mean the players internal DAC i.e. its analogue output. It's not clear if the player has an option to bypass DSP i.e. speaker distance, LFE etc to provide DSD direct rather than converting to LPCM to apply DSP.

3) What is output from HDMI when using SACD if the sink doesn't support DSD ? Denon usually apply the following rule "For rights-protected content, the audio signal is down-sampled to 48 kHz, 16-bits, and output." I don't know if this rule applies to the 2012 as it did with some earlier models.

Avi

[PeterZ]

Originally Posted by Avi

Just to clarify there were several elements to my original post.

Thanks for clarifying Avi, and you did indeed raise some very interesting points.

Originally Posted by Avi

1) DSD output via HDMI which wasn't an option on earlier high end Denon Blu-ray models. From what you say this is now an output option.

As per my previous response.

Originally Posted by Avi

2) DSD direct to DAC and by this I mean the players internal DAC i.e. its analogue output. It's not clear if the player has an option to bypass DSP i.e. speaker distance, LFE etc to provide DSD direct rather than converting to LPCM to apply DSP.

Good question. The manual states that (on the analog connections) either DSD or LPCM is utilized by the internal DAC - confusing? It says to disable HDMI output in the menu to utilize the pure DSD (asterisk *3). In addition, there is a Pure Direct mode, which according to the manual turns off the digital audio output, video output, and display, but this has nothing to do with LPCM conversion I don't think.

Originally Posted by Avi

3) What is output from HDMI when using SACD if the link doesn't support DSD ? Denon usually apply the following rule "For rights-protected content, the audio signal is down-sampled to 48 kHz, 16-bits, and output." I don't know if this rule applies to the 2012 as it did with some earlier models.

Unfortunately the Denon manual lets us down here with insufficient detail.

Firstly, the easy stuff, the manual states that nothing is output via the Coax Digital connection.

On the HDMI side of things, it states that either DSD is output, or if the receiver is not capable, it will put out Multi Ch. LPCM, however it does not explicitly state what bit depth nor the sampling frequency. Denon, Denon, Denon, how could you leave that crucial bit of info out! I could easily answer that question if only I had a receiver with HDMI.

For the benefit of all, I have attached a screenshot of p52 of the manual (freely available for download on web, so no copyright issues) which shows detailed information on audio signal output for all sources on all connections (remember to read the asterisks!)

[Hepps]

Finally upgraded from a Pana DMP-DBT110 to the Denon 2012 as the main source for my PT-AT5000 3D projector.

Set it all up last night and sat down to a first demo of Avatar on 3D. All was looking good until I sat down and tried to press "ok" to play Avatar from the blu ray top menu - nothing happened. I tried again, then tried a few other buttons on the remote - nothing. The red light indicating the IR was transmitting was oiming on but I checked the (new) batteries anyway. All ok. So I stood up walked towards the Denon (which sits in an AV unit underneath the projector screen) and as I approached I tried agin - SUCCESS.

Through some experimentation it turns out the Pana PT-AT5000 is somehow blocking the Denon's own remote IR signal. It could be the projectors 3D transmitter.

GUTTED as it means I can't actually control the Denon from my sofa and have to get up and walk to within a few feet to make it respond. The Pioneer AV receiver underneath it has no problems, and the Pana 110 blu ray this has replaced also has no problems - just the Denon.

Hence I have posted this on this thread (not the PT-AT5000's) as it is only the Denon that is affected.

Anyone had any similar problems ?

I have contacted Kent Home Cinema where I got it from and hope they will either have ideas or I will have to change the Denon...can't have an all singing all dancing home cinema where you have to walk up to a £750 blu ray to press play !!!

Hepps

[discover]

Guys can this player be modded to enable multi region playback of blu-ray ???

[Hepps]

Originally Posted by discover

Guys can this player be modded to enable multi region playback of blu-ray ???

My understanding is no. It can be modded for multi region DVD but not bklu ray. You can change it to a different blu ray region but its a long involved process so not something I think you would want to do for each blu ray you want to watch ?

No replies to my IR problem - but I am hoping Denon Uk will help...

Hepps

[discover]

That's so lame!!
Why can't anyone make a good multi region player??
I need a blu-ray player in silver/titanium but has to multi region!!

[Hepps]

Don't shoot the messenger discover. Just telling what I have been told !

As it's giving me IR issues per previous post I am nit a huge fan of this player at the moment anyway.

Not sure I have yet heard if multi region blu ray. DVD yes but for som reason not blu ray. Someone will know why this is...

[discover]

lol nooo I wasn't referring that to you Hepps, not at all. I'm just saying that these high end players if not by default should atleast be made multi region via a hard or software mod.
You pay hundreds of pounds for a premium player and this era you would expect it to play discs from other regions atleast. A lot of the old, pre-90's movies I wanna watch are strangely only available on region 1 and that sucks!

I'm really not sure about IR problems though. When you first noticed that you should have got it exchanged for another one.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by discover

Guys can this player be modded to enable multi region playback of blu-ray ???

Yes it can support multi-region Blu-ray (including DVD) via a hardware mod - http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur...tle&title=1150

Avi

[PeterZ]

Originally Posted by Avi

Yes it can support multi-region Blu-ray (including DVD) via a hardware mod - http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur...tle&title=1150
Avi

I think Avi just became the most popular member of this thread

PS
In the link, it refers to the DBP-2012UD*CI* model, not sure if there's a difference to the non-CI version and its ability to be re-chipped. Great find nevertheless, been searching for this myself!

[Avi]

Originally Posted by PeterZ

I think Avi just became the most popular member of this thread

PS
In the link, it refers to the DBP-2012UD*CI* model, not sure if there's a difference to the non-CI version and its ability to be re-chipped. Great find nevertheless, been searching for this myself!

AFAIK "CI" is a marketing designation used in the USA to identify Denon models more suited to the "Custom Install" market that may require RS232 control system connection.

Avi

[discover]

wow that's great news.
The only problem is I'm rubbish at opening things up. I can open it up, no problem but putting it all back together can be daunting lol.
How is this unit interms of operation speed/opening and closing the tray and loading times? I ask because I heard denon players were generally quiet slow.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by discover

wow that's great news.
The only problem is I'm rubbish at opening things up. I can open it up, no problem but putting it all back together can be daunting lol..

Unless you're experienced at precision soldering and have the appropriate tools I wouldn't go the DIY route with this particular hardware mod. Some hardware mods are very easy to install/remove i.e. Oppo but some are more involved. Also if you need to make a warranty claim you will need to remove the mod as it invalidates the manufacturers warranty.

JVB provide a "grade" to how difficult a particular mod is to fit.

"Installation grade: Hard

More then one IC has to be added or replaced in the DVD player. The connection points are accessible but close together (average space between pins: 1.27mm or 0.005inch). A soldering iron with a small tip is needed. Special care has to be taken if a chip must be replaced. These are SMD chips with 40 or more pins. Normally a hot air soldering technique is used to remove the correct chip, without damaging the suroundings.
For all modifications you need to have some soldering experience. You need a small (15watt) soldering iron or a soldering station. The soldering temperature should not exceed 350 degrees Celsius (660F). Do NOT use any soldering grease, fluid, acid or other pasts, but soldering tin for electronics (which is included). Use the included shrink-wrap to insulate the chip. This modification comes with the pre-wired socket to make installation easy."

Avi

[PeterZ]

Originally Posted by Hepps

Through some experimentation it turns out the Pana PT-AT5000 is somehow blocking the Denon's own remote IR signal. It could be the projectors 3D transmitter.Hepps

This is an odd problem indeed. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest running through a process of elimination to narrow down the cause:

1. Most obvious, the batteries in the Denon's remote. Try fresh ones: the ones that came with the player might be dud.
2. Switch the projector off completely. Does that improve the reception of the Denon's remote?
3. Is it really the 3D infrared transmitter in the projector as the source of the problem? Just play a 2D Bluray movie to see if the problem goes away, if it does, then that's your problem.

If none of the above improve the Denon remote's responsiveness, then it could very well be a dud Denon remote or a dud infrared receiver in the Denon player itself.

Good luck, and definitely post your findings one way or another for the benefit of other people that might be having the same problem.

[discover]

Would love to hear about operational speed on this unit as I'm seriously thinking of buying one today :-)

[Hepps]

Originally Posted by discover

Would love to hear about operational speed on this unit as I'm seriously thinking of buying one today :-)

discover,

There is no denying that it is slow IMO. Slow to open the disc tray, slow to close the disc, slow to get to a menu and slow to start playing, or pause. These comparisons are versus my 2 budget blu rays, a Sony 370 and a Pana 110 both of which do everything much faster.

Should that stop you buying one ? Depends on your view. Many would say "good things come to those who wait..." My guess is that all the "high end" blu rays like Oppo, Manantz etc will be slower than budget ones...

Hepps

[PeterZ]

Originally Posted by discover

Would love to hear about operational speed on this unit as I'm seriously thinking of buying one today :-)

The Australian version gives me the following times. These are starting from an open tray to when the first menu/moving images are displayed.

• 3D Bluray (Tron Legacy) - 30sec
• 3D Bluray (Monsters vs Aliens) - 21sec
• 2D Bluray (Blade Runner - Final Cut) - 22sec
• 2D Bluray (Inception) - 1min. Yes, that's right, I tested it twice to be sure.
• DVD (Terminator Salvation) - 17sec
• SACD (Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon) - 15sec
• DVD-Audio (Steve Stevens: Flamenco a Go Go) - 20sec
• CD - 15sec

Startup/shutdown:

• Power On and eject tray - 12sec
• Power Off - 20sec

Apart from the Inception Bluray, most are reasonable. Dono why the power-off time is almost twice as long as power-on , could be better I guess.

[discover]

Thanks for your opinion Hepps that's exactly what I was looking for.
Id also like to know, does the sacrifice for the slow operation of the unit pay dividends elsewhere? Ie, picture and audio??
What about using this unit Hdmi in to avr for 1080/24p bluray playback?

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Hepps

My guess is that all the "high end" blu rays like Oppo, Manantz etc will be slower than budget ones.

The Oppo is operationally pretty quick and is similar to the PS3 in terms of Blu-ray operational response. Blu-ray titles can vary depending on the use of BD-J. BD-J heavy titles typically take longer to load

Some example -

Complete power off state to tray open (using eject button to power on) - 2.5 seconds

Tray close to first video/sound -

CD - Lisbeth Scott Rough & Steep - 9 Seconds

Blu-ray - 2D Inception - 37 seconds

Blu-ray - 2D Casino Royale - 22 seconds

DVD-A - Sting Brand New Day MLP version - 15 seconds

Avi

[Hepps]

Originally Posted by PeterZ

This is an odd problem indeed. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest running through a process of elimination to narrow down the cause:

1. Most obvious, the batteries in the Denon's remote. Try fresh ones: the ones that came with the player might be dud.
2. Switch the projector off completely. Does that improve the reception of the Denon's remote?
3. Is it really the 3D infrared transmitter in the projector as the source of the problem? Just play a 2D Bluray movie to see if the problem goes away, if it does, then that's your problem.

If none of the above improve the Denon remote's responsiveness, then it could very well be a dud Denon remote or a dud infrared receiver in the Denon player itself.

Good luck, and definitely post your findings one way or another for the benefit of other people that might be having the same problem.

PeterZ,

Sorry for delayed reply to your post/ideas.Thanks for yout ideas.

1. Yes I tried brand new Duracells - did not make a difference.
2. It responds fine when the projector is turned off. It is definitely getting blocked/blinded by the Pana projector. But I cant blame the projector as all the other AV kit next to it or that it replaced in that slot worked fine and were not affected by projector (Pana 110 blu ray, Pioneer LX55 AVR, Arcam CD player, previous Sony AVR..)
3. Yes it only happens with 3D on the projector. The PT-AT5000 has a strong IR transmitter to send the 3D signal to the screen and bounce it back to the glasses. But as mentioned in 2 above no other kit affected so must be that the IR signal is just right to block the denon.

Its very frustrating. In talking to my dealer who sold me both the Denon and Pana projector at the same time they are suggesting I use a Logitech Harmony 900 system that would essentially replace the Denon's IR signal with an RF signal.

I am somewhat reluctant to go down this route as its yet more money (few hundred ?) and I dont need RF as I wont be clsoing the front of the AV cabinet when in use for ventilation reasons.

So my choices are to push to get the Denon swapped for any decent blu ray, invest in an RF all in one remote or try to mask the Denon'sIR receiver from the projecvtors IR signal - but this is bound to look messy ?

Hepps

[tausifs]

Hi

I just got this player on home demo to use the multichannel analogues with a legacy pre-amp.

I have gone through the speaker setup. Perhaps I am missing something, but where is the variable frequency crossover setting for the subwoofer ?

I had the 3800 bd player previously and that had one.

Has it been dropped on this 2012UD model ?

Even if this is the case, can anyone confirm if it is fixed to 80Hz ?

[tausifs]

I think the crossover must be fixed at 80Hz. It sounds spot on !

Btw , something bizarre I have noticed is when I play my U2 360 Blu ray , the transport seems to be making a buzzing/vibrating sound.

I put a DVD in , it's fine. I put a different blu ray in, it's fine still. I put U2 360 back in and it's buzzing again ! Picture and audio are fine, turn the volume low and you can still hear this horrid buzzing.

Has anyone noticed this phenomenon with specific Blu rays ? Edit- it seems to be buzzing with most blu rays, I suspect a dodgy player.

And not that's this makes a difference , but does anyone know how to display the firmware version ?

[PeterZ]

Originally Posted by Hepps

...Yes it only happens with 3D on the projector. The PT-AT5000 has a strong IR transmitter to send the 3D signal to the screen and bounce it back to the glasses. But as mentioned in 2 above no other kit affected so must be that the IR signal is just right to block the denon.

So my choices are to push to get the Denon swapped for any decent blu ray, invest in an RF all in one remote or try to mask the Denon'sIR receiver from the projecvtors IR signal - but this is bound to look messy ?
Hepps

Another option would be to use an IR Receiver extender.
A brass tube version, apparently more immune to interference.

I have no experience with these, but it should just plug into the Denon's "Room to Room IN" connector on the back panel. You'd have to verify if it takes a stereo or mono connector for transmitting the voltage signal. This is a cheap option allowing you to place the IR receiver in closer proximity to your seating position.

[tausifs]

Actually , I tried more blu rays in the 2012 and I found that with most of them, the transport made a vibrating sound. So it's not just my U2 360 blu ray.

Furthermore I also demo'd the sister product Marantz ud7006 last night and it too was vibrating with blu rays. This has too therefore be something peculiar to these players , but why haven't people posted about it ?

That aside, these 2 players' multichannel analogues sound much more similar than they are distinct. It may be however that the Marantz sound is a touch brighter and punchier than the Denon but in my system , I suspect it is the Denon that is better suited.

To add to that , I also demo'd the Cambridge Audio 751BD player last night which also has multichannel analogues. It is a souped up Oppo basically by design and uses Wolfson audio DACS. It is a less imaged sound and After about 45 minutes I came to the conclusion I preferred the sound of the Denon. Btw the Denon and marantz use Burr Brown audio DACs.

Yesterday, I bought the recently released blu ray of Pulp Fiction. I unwrapped it and put it in the Marantz. As soon as it started spinning that vibrating sound was there just like with other blu rays ! So it can't be that all my Blu rays are warped ! I think the player then said checking for update, so I guess it may need a fw update before it will be able to play it.

But , please , 2012 owners , do you have anything at all to comment on this (?transport) vibrating I am getting with many blu ray discs ??

[Avi]

Originally Posted by tausifs

Actually , I tried more blu rays in the 2012 and I found that with most of them, the transport made a vibrating sound. So it's not just my U2 360 blu ray.

Furthermore I also demo'd the sister product Marantz ud7006 last night and it too was vibrating with blu rays. This has too therefore be something peculiar to these players , but why haven't people posted about it ?

I don't know about the 2012 but I encountered similar with other Denon Blu-ray players I used. The best way I can describe the noise/vibration is a less intense sound/vibration of a helicopter when flying near the house.

Avi

[pepsiblik]

Originally Posted by Hepps

My understanding is no. It can be modded for multi region DVD but not bklu ray.

Hi

Can you link to the place where you found that information? I am only interested in multi-region DVD as the DVD rental I visit has a large selection of Region 1 DVDs.

Thanks!

[tausifs]

Originally Posted by Avi

I don't know about the 2012 but I encountered similar with other Denon Blu-ray players I used. The best way I can describe the noise/vibration is a less intense sound/vibration of a helicopter when flying near the house.

Avi

Doing this seemed to help a bit : put disc in, vibrating starts(!) , put unit in standby, then power back on.

Although I liked the Denon 2012's m/c analogues, I was disconcerted by the picture. If I'm not mistaken, it uses an Anchor bay chip.

I had the impression the Denon was over- cleaning up the image , gone was the grain and in its place was a clinical digital video-like quality even though it was in 24p mode. I also thought there was a hint of over-whitening , with John travoltas face shimmering in pulp fiction in the opening car drive scene conversation about Amsterdam, and the reflection of light in people's eyes took on a blobby white crush look.

When I played the same movie 1080p file on my WDTV live player, it looked just how it should. Indeed my old Denon 3800bd player could play it just fine , I think it used a Realta chip.

I don't mean to say the chip is at fault or flawed, it's just a comment.

[Monk888]

The denon3800bd still remains a reference at it's price point, the few who let one go (sold) have later regreted the decision and now finding it hard to replicate it's pq navina and it's ability to play any disk without drama (after 3 years of blockbuster br rental every disk played including latest releases)

Back to the denon 2012 - I would recommend any decision on it's performance is based on a demo with you own media, I found the 3800bd is still reference after 3years

It would be nice to see any oppo-93/95 shooting against the marantz/denon2012

It terms of cd quality none of these (including the denon3800) come close to a 10 year old naim cd player sonic talents.

[PeterZ]

Originally Posted by tausifs

Actually , I tried more blu rays in the 2012 and I found that with most of them, the transport made a vibrating sound. So it's not just my U2 360 blu ray.

But , please , 2012 owners , do you have anything at all to comment on this (?transport) vibrating I am getting with many blu ray discs ??

I purchased my DBP-2012UD (Australian) nearly a month ago, and to date have not experienced any overtly noticeable transport vibration/sound while playing any media (BluRay/DVD/CD/SACD). Obviously if I stick my head right near the player I can hear the normal sound as would any player, but nothing that would draw my attention to it from the listening position.

Stating the obvious here, but you are aware that the DBP-2012 has a small exhaust fan at the back? You're not mistaking the sound you are hearing for that? Having said that, the exhaust fan on my unit is barely perceptible, even when I'm right up close to the player.

If I notice anything unusual I will definitely report it here.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Monk888

The denon3800bd still remains a reference at it's price point, the few who let one go (sold) have later regreted the decision and now finding it hard to replicate it's pq navina and it's ability to play any disk without drama (after 3 years of blockbuster br rental every disk played including latest releases)

Back to the denon 2012 - I would recommend any decision on it's performance is based on a demo with you own media, I found the 3800bd is still reference after 3years

It would be nice to see any oppo-93/95 shooting against the marantz/denon2012

It terms of cd quality one of these (including the denon3800) come close to a 10 year old naim cd player sonic talents.

A while back several AVF members organised a "blind shootout" covering different aspects of player performance across players at different price points including the 3800 and A1UD. Details of the setup used plus the setup and calibration is included (in the main thread) along with the subjective scores removing the influence of preconception on brand, price etc as much as possible.

Some background on Event 2 encompassing DVD not covered in event 1

September and October - Blu-ray player shootout

Scoring - Event 2

September and October - Blu-ray player shootout

Scoring - Event 1

September and October - Blu-ray player shootout

I think the key is defining what is meant by "reference" as one man's meat can be another man's poison especially with regard to image manipulation.

Avi