[MERGED] Dolby Pro Logic IIz and Audessy DSX: Must have or must avoid?

dante01

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Dolby Pro Logic IIz

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Through the addition of another pair of speakers Dolby Pro Logic IIz (PLIIz) is supposed to add a vertical component to the horizontal soundfield of conventional 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound.

Rain in a movie is supposed to sound as though it is falling on the listener's roof and helicopters are supposed to sound as though they are actually flying above you.

Specially encoded material isn't needed, but you do need an AV amp with it built in and another pair of speakers wired up from that amp, on the wall, to the sides of your TV (above your front two speakers).

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Yamaha's higher-end receivers have had height, aka "Presence," channels for years. Those extra speakers supplement the sound from the front speakers with ambient effects produced by Yamaha's proprietary Cinema DSP, which provides various multichannel configurations up to 11 channels. Obviously, Dolby's Pro Logic IIz uses different technology, although the end result may be similar?

So, is it worth having anything up to 9 speakers plonked around the walls of your listening room or is this just a lack lustre gimmick developed by divorce lawyers as an aid to drumming up new business?


First listen: Dolby Pro Logic IIz 'height' surround falls flat

by Steve Guttenberg, CNET

The Dolby Web site is bubbling with excitement about its new processing trick, "With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, rain in a movie now seems to be actually falling on the listener's roof, concert videos bring a more intense sense of being at the performance, and orchestral works deliver more palpable depth, power, and connection." The "z" in Pro Logic IIz signifies the Z axis, otherwise known as height.

Sounds interesting, but when I setup and listened to the first receiver (an Onkyo TX-SR607) with Pro Logic IIz, the height speakers didn't lift my spirits.

Pro Logic IIz can, depending on the receiver's capabilities, either augment a 5.1 or 7.1 channel speaker system with two height channels. In other words, in a 5.1 channel system with Pro Logic IIz you'll have five speakers in the front of the room--left, center, right, left height, and right height--plus a surround speaker to both sides of the main listening position.

The 7.1 system with Pro Logic IIz uses the same speaker array--plus two rear surround speakers.

Once you have a receiver equipped with Pro Logic IIz, and wall mount the height speakers three feet or higher over the main left/right speakers, you're all set. You won't have to buy specially encoded movies or music.

According to Dolby, "Pro Logic IIz identifies and decodes spatial cues that occur naturally in all content--stereo and 5.1 broadcast, music CDs, DVDs, 5.1 and 7.1 Blu-ray discs, and video games. Dolby Pro Logic IIz processes low-level, uncorrelated information--such as ambience and some amorphous effects like rain or wind--and directs it to the front height speakers."

Nice idea, did it actually work?
Well. no. The height speakers didn't make a discernable difference. I couldn't hear them at all, so I increased the height speaker volume by 3 Decibels. Still no difference.

My listening position was about eight feet from the front speakers, but when I stood up and moved much closer to the front speakers I heard the height speakers. At that point my head was closer to the height speakers than the left/right front speakers. Moving back to the couch the height speakers' sound faded away.

We've listened to 7.1 many times before, and know it's a fairly subtle improvement. So unless your room is really large, with space behind your couch, seven channel isn't likely to create a more immersive, wrap-around soundfield than 5.1. In fact, I'd recommend sticking with 5.1, but take the money you would have spent on the height speakers and buy better main, left/right speakers. That's an improvement you won't have to struggle to hear.
First listen: Dolby Pro Logic IIz 'height' surround falls flat | The Audiophiliac - CNET News


More info:
Dolby - Dolby Pro Logic IIz
 
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read a recent review that mentioned ones of it's biggest advantages was for games. despite the amount of gaming i do i am not going to be upgrading either speakers or receiver for this.

think of it, the amount of threads you see in here where people compain about the low amount of sound that comes form surround speakers using PLII(there was one last week), how much sound do you think is oing to come from these?

even though i have a dedicated room, and would be easy to add, ii can't see me doing it
 
I had enough trouble convincing the better half that 5 speakers and a sub were absolutely essential.

I have a Yamaha 1900 and a couple of spare speakers , When I mentioned trying out the presence option , two more speakers either side of the TV .... the look on her face was enough for me to quickly add .... " Only Joking " :D

Unless there was a major difference , its far too much hassle to chase the walls for another two speakers.
 
I'm looking forward to PLIIy. You add another speaker that you sit on and sound effects come out of your :censored::nono:
 
Also keep an eye out for Audyssey's competing DSX technology. They also add "wide" speakers as well as height. Would love to hear a demo of all these new systems soon.
 
dante01 thanks for that info. I've been trying to decide whether to get HK AVR 255 or wait for the Onkyo 577. The 577 had the IIz going for it, but reading that information perhaps the HK has just pipped it.
 
dante01 thanks for that info. I've been trying to decide whether to get HK AVR 255 or wait for the Onkyo 577. The 577 had the IIz going for it, but reading that information perhaps the HK has just pipped it.

What a bizzare way to choose an amp !

So because the 577 has a feature you think you don't need based on one mans opinion you are going to buy a HK.

My advice would be to actually go to a store and try to hear these amps.

As for Pro Logic IIz the new Denons have it as do the Onkyo's so you can be sure that next years Yamahas and even HK will follow.

Best of luck with your choice. :thumbsup:
 
What a bizzare way to choose an amp !

So because the 577 has a feature you think you don't need based on one mans opinion you are going to buy a HK.

My advice would be to actually go to a store and try to hear these amps.

As for Pro Logic IIz the new Denons have it as do the Onkyo's so you can be sure that next years Yamahas and even HK will follow.

Best of luck with your choice. :thumbsup:

Quickly, because i don't want to go off topic:

I did say 'perhaps', not that 'i would'. I've been looking for help on the decision for some time and started a thread (http://www.avforums.com/forums/av-amplifiers-receivers/989809-onkyo-577-harmon-kardon-255-a.html) looking for some constructive help as opposed to the unhelpful 'flaming' as above. My post was simply a thank you for helping me along with my decision.

Perhaps you could add something constructive to the topic by telling us your views on whether IIz is good enough to be a swaying decision when purchasing a new amp? :thumbsup:
 
Quickly, because i don't want to go off topic:

I did say 'perhaps', not that 'i would'. I've been looking for help on the decision for some time and started a thread (http://www.avforums.com/forums/av-amplifiers-receivers/989809-onkyo-577-harmon-kardon-255-a.html) looking for some constructive help as opposed to the unhelpful 'flaming' as above. My post was simply a thank you for helping me along with my decision.

Perhaps you could add something constructive to the topic by telling us your views on whether IIz is good enough to be a swaying decision when purchasing a new amp? :thumbsup:

I can't offer a view on PL IIz because I haven't heard it and neither have most who post on here.

It's early days for the PL IIz but I'd keep an open mind on it personally. I would guess that it's quite difficult to get a demo as dealers would have to change their demo rooms.

Apologies if you feel 'flamed'. Looking at your original post again I can see that if you were being drawn to the 577 because it had PL IIz then to see the technology rubbished in a review then you may be drawn back to your original choice.

Back on topic check out what AUDYSSEY think about Height channels.

Audyssey Welcomes You

They seem to think that Height Channels are very important, though, of course, this does not mean that Dolby has done a good job with PL IIz.
 
On the Dolby site the decoding principle was explained like this:

"Because it processes only nondirectional sounds for the height channels, Dolby Pro Logic IIz maintains the integrity of the source mix and the effects are always appropriate to the material. The added dimension complements the sound from the rear surround speakers, adding spaciousness while honoring the original intent of the content creator."

That should make it possible to encode this height channel somehow in the form of nondirectional audio, while backwards compatibility to all PLIIx systems is maintained of course. Now all we need is some real PLIIz supporting soundtracks.
 
Im undecieded, When THX EX came out originally I had a demo at a very well known hifi dealer, switching between EX and standard DD, this was on Tag Mclaren kit with some suitably expensive speakers, I honestly couldnt tell the difference:rolleyes: But Ive since had a Pioneer THX Select amp (£650) in 2001, a Denon AVC-A10SE with POA-T10 and now a Pioneer VSA-AX10, with all of these I can tell a difference! Now, if this was down to the source material used or that the Tag kit is that good in 5.1? I dont know? could be the same with PLIIz, unless its used with good sources with spacious soundtracks, this may not work? As others have said, try it.





But Im sceptical:rolleyes::rotfl:
 
Funny that this post shuold pop up. I have a Yam 1800 and have tried the presence speaker option, and to be honest.....it was an interesting waste of time. A) I could barely hear them to notice a difference and B) when I turned them up, I found that it offered bog all improvement.

Today I have had a play around with the new Onkyo 607, which has the new PLIIz and have had very similar results to my Yamaha. We started off by using a pair of MA RSFX in both bi polar and di polar configurations, with minimal improvment. Then we swapped to a standard bookshelf design, thinking that a direct radiating speaker might work better but results were similar.

To me, this addition to the Dolby badge collection is just that, another badge. Until we have new dedicated decoders for hight/spacial effects etc, with the media to go with it, its just a bit of a gimmic. No doubt it will sell a few more units though.

Personaly, I would strongly advise not buying an amp just because it has a PLIIz badge. Spend time auditioning other amps, and spend even more time on the room and speaker positioning.

Just me thoughts
 
Do you think that IIz is a future proofing measure? If you buy and Amp now and don't replace it for 3 - 5 years will you miss the feature as it becomes more prevalent? Will it become more prevalent in Blueray / DVD movies?:confused:
 
Do you think that IIz is a future proofing measure? If you buy and Amp now and don't replace it for 3 - 5 years will you miss the feature as it becomes more prevalent? Will it become more prevalent in Blueray / DVD movies?:confused:

nah, its a gimmick and I'd not base a purchase on it inclusion ;)
 
nah, its a gimmick and I'd not base a purchase on it inclusion ;)

Hmm I wouldn't be so sure. My understanding is that there will be Soundtracks encoded with a Height channel which DPL IIz will decode.

Taken from the Dolby website

'Because Dolby Pro Logic IIz is based on proven Dolby Pro Logic IIx technology, it is as easily implemented in AVRs. The height channels become another option on the speaker setup menu. Additionally, game developers now have a powerful tool that opens up the potential for true three-dimensional audio effects. With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, developers can encode specific height information in the z-axis. Players will experience even greater immersion and realism.'

I guess if it's a toss up between amp a)with DPL IIz and amp b)without then it would be safer to go with amp a). I'm assuming the amps are very closely matched in all other respects.

Cheers :thumbsup:
 
With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, developers can encode specific height information in the z-axis. Players will experience even greater immersion and realism.'

sounds like it is very aimed at the gaming market, which is understandable, would guess it's impact on movies would be a lot lot less
 
Hmm I wouldn't be so sure. My understanding is that there will be Soundtracks encoded with a Height channel which DPL IIz will decode.

Taken from the Dolby website

'Because Dolby Pro Logic IIz is based on proven Dolby Pro Logic IIx technology, it is as easily implemented in AVRs. The height channels become another option on the speaker setup menu. Additionally, game developers now have a powerful tool that opens up the potential for true three-dimensional audio effects. With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, developers can encode specific height information in the z-axis. Players will experience even greater immersion and realism.'

I guess if it's a toss up between amp a)with DPL IIz and amp b)without then it would be safer to go with amp a). I'm assuming the amps are very closely matched in all other respects.

Cheers :thumbsup:

Great, now that I have upgraded my 5.1 to 7.1 I would need to get 9.1, or is it 8.1 if the height channel is monophonic. The least Yamaha could do, is to give IIz as a software update for their AVR models with presence speaker support. Now wouldn't that be convenient. Of course, that's not going to happen. Technically, it would be possible, but probably fails to licensing issues with DPLIIz :rolleyes:
 
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Hmm I wouldn't be so sure. My understanding is that there will be Soundtracks encoded with a Height channel which DPL IIz will decode.

Taken from the Dolby website

'Because Dolby Pro Logic IIz is based on proven Dolby Pro Logic IIx technology, it is as easily implemented in AVRs. The height channels become another option on the speaker setup menu. Additionally, game developers now have a powerful tool that opens up the potential for true three-dimensional audio effects. With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, developers can encode specific height information in the z-axis. Players will experience even greater immersion and realism.'

I guess if it's a toss up between amp a)with DPL IIz and amp b)without then it would be safer to go with amp a). I'm assuming the amps are very closely matched in all other respects.

Cheers :thumbsup:


Amp (A) with PLIIz is simply drawing power for the height speakers from the front power stage. The amps with PLIIz do not incorporate independent amplification for the new effects speakers.

Its a bolt on gimmick that can actually be detrimental to your amps overall performance. No one is ever going to produce soundtracks that specifically utilise it because the additional channels aren't actually channels at all ;)
 
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See, here we go again. He refers to it as 9.1 and it isn't!


But Iím eager to install Pro Logic IIz when itís available. Once youíve heard the effect of height channels, conventional 5.1 or 7.1 sounds collapsed. Sure, some people will turn off when presented with more complex and expensive audio systems. But any surround sound aficionado who hears a Pro Logic IIz demo will instantly realize that the home theater sound systems weíve been listening to are missing something.


This guy's predictions of what others will think of it aren't exactly coming true.
 
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I tried it out with my mates yamaha rxv3800 we used a pair of kef 1001 eggs to supliment the kef 5005.2 speakers, we were watching some episodes of lost season 3 and were expecting good results from scenes with rain in the jungle, we found that with the small eggs pointing forward that the sounds they produced didn't seem to reach our ears, after a little concideration I decided that if we angled the height speakers towards the ceiling the sound would be reflected back down and it seemed much better, much more like it was actualy raining in the room, anybody else tried this?
 
Amp (A) with PLIIz is simply drawing power for the height speakers from the front power stage. The amps with PLIIz do not incorporate independent amplification for the new effects speakers.

+1

people still complaining that their 'budget' amps sound underpowered, and in most cases.... they are:D and still will be :D and even better.... dolby evolution takes hold in the form of dp2z and they will sound worse:eek:

ill buy one then wonder why?!!!!:confused::D

:smashin:
 
I must say, I've noticed a few films in the cinema apparrently having a z sound axis. Was wondering if it was extra speakers or some soet of effect,
 

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