[SyStemDeMoN]

Originally Posted by dante01

If there is an option for HDMI audio output on the amp then ensure it is set to AMP and not AMP+TV.

The amp automatically cuts sound from the TV, I have looked in the HDMI options with no joy.

Should I be getter better bitrates then ??

[dante01]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

The amp automatically cuts sound from the TV, I have looked in the HDMI options with no joy.

Should I be getter better bitrates then ??

This would be dependant on the source material and the encoded audio. I've no idea what sample rates where used for the films you've been watching, but it isn't a given that all HD encoded audio will actually use the highest rate possible. It is more probable that he rate will be higher than 48kHz in most instances though.

[SyStemDeMoN]

Originally Posted by dante01

This would be dependant on the source material and the encoded audio. I've no idea what sample rates where used for the films you've been watching, but it isn't a given that all HD encoded audio will actually use the highest rate possible. It is more probable that he rate will be higher than 48kHz in most instances though.

Damn.

Could it be the HDMI lead im using ??? About a year old.
Just a cheap o one.

[SyStemDeMoN]

Well after playing around last nite, I found that one of my HDMI leads was faulty as it no longer works

Going up tesco later to get another one, but I don't think that the cable was limiting the bitrate. They either work or don't right ?

I think I'm going to have to start a new thread about this and request some help.

Will report back when I have tried and tested my new cable.

[dante01]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

Well after playing around last nite, I found that one of my HDMI leads was faulty as it no longer works

Going up tesco later to get another one, but I don't think that the cable was limiting the bitrate. They either work or don't right ?

I think I'm going to have to start a new thread about this and request some help.

Will report back when I have tried and tested my new cable.

Some cables can limit what you can stream, but you usually end up with no signal in such cases. You should try to get cables that are labelled as category 2. Cat 2 cables are officially tested ans assured to work with 1080p. They also work over a longer distance than category 1 cables.

[SyStemDeMoN]

ok I got a new cable, HDMI 1.3b and have gotten 7.2mbs from xmen 3 in dts MA.

But I still only get a 48khz sample rate ?

[dante01]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

ok I got a new cable, HDMI 1.3b and have gotten 7.2mbs from xmen 3 in dts MA.

But I still only get a 48khz sample rate ?

As I've mentioned in this thread and pointed out in another…

Sony STR-DH800 Owners Thread

… Just because a higher sample rate is possible (up to 192kHz), it doesn't necessarily mean that HD audio will be encoded with a higher sample rate.

You'll find that not all HD audio tracks are encoded with a sample rate higher than 48kHz.

X-Men Origins Wolverine [Blu-ray] Audio:

DTS-HD Master Audio English 3892 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 3892 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core:
5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS Audio French 768 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 768 kbps / 24-bit
Dolby Digital Audio English 448 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio Portuguese 448 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 448 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio English 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio English 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps
DTS Express English 96 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 96 kbps / 24-bit
DTS Express English 96 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 96 kbps / 24-bit
DTS Express English 96 kbps 1.0 / 48 kHz / 96 kbps / 24-bit

[Bizness]

If there's a better or more informative poster on these forums than Dante, I've not met them.

Top man D

[Shin Akuma]

Quick question about the HDMI cable. I just bought one new cable but when check on the screen sample rate, it is pretty same as with other HDMI cable was. I just wanted to ask does HDMI cable effect the sample rates etc. I checked on Terminator salvation and for me it is mostly 2 to 3 Mbps and 48Khz, and about 20 Mbps on AVC. I will appreciate if some one else can check what sort of reading they are getting.
I bought new cable as last one was bit short. thanks

[YellowSphere]

Originally Posted by dante01

BD player and most devices (all BD players) only have one HDMI output.

Sorry to be a pedant, but both the Pioneer BDP-LX91 and Denon DVD-A1UD have dual HDMI outputs (for separate routing of video and audio content to respective devices).

EDIT: Shin; the cable will make no difference. The sample rates/bit rates are inherent properties of the data as stored on the disc, and its transmission between or within devices will not affect this regardless of how it's transmitted. Different cables will impact on the amount of bit errors (data from the original source which doesn't get through for whatever reason) but it's very rare for something to be at a point where there are enough bit errors for you to notice. If the signal gets too corrupted, you'll lose picture entirely.

[Heavy71]

Hello all and please help! I am an amateur here and have posted this in other spots but not getting any help. Yes I have read through pages of this stuff but still not sure if I am grasping it. Thought a direct answer would help.

I have the BDP S360 blu ray. My Yamaha v550 amp does not connect via HDMI. I know my s360 decodes True HD and DTS-MA but won't do me any good here correct?

Anyway I am connecting to my receiver via Optical toslink. What is the best setup for me downmix pcm's or set it to DD and DTS. I assume downmix is wrong but want to make sure.

another thing with my receiver(amp). It is a 6.1 surround receiver and I have the 6th speaker connected. If you are familiar with yamaha you would know that there is a light indicator in the bottom right corner of the display which indicates the speaker output being used at the time (L/R stereo, 5.1, or 6.1). No matter what I set it to the SB(surround back) light never turns on??? I change many settings and it will not activate. However I hear the SB speaker working. The only time I have ever seen the SB light on is during the THX surround sound test at the beginning of star wars revenge of sith. The DVD says it is 6.1 audio on the cover. once the movie begins... the SB light turns off. Is this weird? Am I doing something wrong.

I know it is an old receiver but it does do a good job. Can someone help me out.

Darryl

[kmac_17]

Can someone confirm the point of dts-ma?

I remember with dvd it offered better quality than dobly digital, now that difference no longer exists between dts-ma and tru-hd; what differentiates the 2 to justify/keep dts in business?

[dante01]

Originally Posted by kmac_17

Can someone confirm the point of dts-ma?

I remember with dvd it offered better quality than dobly digital, now that difference no longer exists between dts-ma and tru-hd; what differentiates the 2 to justify/keep dts in business?

No difference?

Dolby TrueHD:
• OPTIONAL support on BD players
• Compressed Lossless encoding
• Supports up to 8 channels of discrete audio
• Sample rates: 48, 96, 192 kHz
• Bit Depth: 16, 20, 24 bit
• Constant bit rate of up to 18.4 Mbit/s


Dolby TrueHD is a "lossless" compression codec. It is compressed to take up less disc space than a PCM track, but once decoded it is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master at either 16-bit or 24-bit resolution (at the discretion of the studio) and a bit rate up to a maximum of 18.4 Mbps.



DTS-HD Master Audio:
• OPTIONAL support on BD players
• Lossless encoding
• Supports up to 8 channels of discrete audio
• Sample rates: 48, 96,192 kHz
• Bit Depth: 16, 20, 24 bit
• Constant bit rate of up to 24.5 Mbit/s

DTS-HD MA (previously known as DTS+) is a lossless audio codec similar to Dolby TrueHD. Like Dolby TrueHD, a disc encoded with DTS-HD MA delivers ALL of the information from the original master recording — bit-for-bit. The difference between the two is that DTS-HD MA uses a core+extension configuration (just like DTS-HD HR). A DTS-HD MA track takes up more disc space than a TrueHD track, but does not require a secondary standard track for backwards compatibility. Since both DTS-HD MA and TrueHD are lossless, they are both 100% identical in quality to the studio master, and hence identical in quality to each other (lossless 24-bit/192 kHz).

They bth also use different proprietary methods of encoding, which may or may not result in better encoding when compared to the other. You decide

[kmac_17]

Originally Posted by dante01

No difference?

They bth also use different proprietary methods of encoding, which may or may not result in better encoding when compared to the other. You decide

Seems to me like DTS is playing off its old dvd advantage to sell its new technology with no advantage over tru-hd

Actually it seems like it comes at a cost as it consumes more disc space which could be used for something else with no benefit.

Im assuming this is like comparing zip and rar file compression. The compression styles are different and 1 produces a smaller file size over the other (i think) and i think one is faster but at the end of the day the decompressed output file is identical

This being said the only advantages of one over the other could be:
1) compressed file size for transport
2) power needed to decompress
3) capatibility

I remember paying alot more for a dts version of a dvd, i better make sure i dont get into the same situation paying more for a dts-ma version of a bluray is a tru-hd version is available

[Strawbs]

Originally Posted by kmac_17

... i better make sure i dont get into the same situation paying more for a dts-ma version of a bluray is a tru-hd version is available

I don't think that will ever be an issue, as studio's usually choose one over the other and don't offer blu-ray releases with a choice... i don't think.

on a personal note: I have a belief that dts-ma has a better balance (centre, fronts, surround) than truehD, which seems to favour front\rear over centre! I haven't tested my theory and it's just an opinion...

It may be a good topic for another thread though.

[dante01]

DTS MA actually uses less space than True HD when you take into consideration the core structure of the format. TrueHD is nothing more than TrueHD while every instance of DTS MA will and does include a standard definition DTS encoding at its core for backward compatibility. A disc using Dolby's TrueHD must also include an entirely different standard definition Dolby Digital encoding in order to provide backward compatibility. The DTS structuring offers more scope for future expansion as well as backward compatibility.

[kmac_17]

Originally Posted by dante01

DTS MA actually uses less space than True HD when you take into consideration the core structure of the format. TrueHD is nothing more than TrueHD while every instance of DTS MA will and does include a standard definition DTS encoding at its core for backward compatibility. A disc using Dolby's TrueHD must also include an entirely different standard definition Dolby Digital encoding in order to provide backward compatibility. The DTS structuring offers more scope for future expansion as well as backward compatibility.

Ahh i see, so as a whole its smaller in size.

Thanks. i feel much more comfortable about the new formats.

[Tone-uk]

Hi dante01 - long time no post! Hows the gerbils?! Or was it hamsters?

Just thought I'd draw your attention to the thread below in which it has been suggested hd audio via multichannel analogue outputs of a blu ray player may not be the same as that via hdmi.

Obviously, this is news to (all?) of us and more discussion is required but, already there are a couple of graphs you might wanna take a look at?

LPCM V's Bitstream (off topic posts from ADA thread)

Cheers

[dante01]

Originally Posted by Tone-uk

Hi dante01 - long time no post! Hows the gerbils?! Or was it hamsters?

Just thought I'd draw your attention to the thread below in which it has been suggested hd audio via multichannel analogue outputs of a blu ray player may not be the same as that via hdmi.

Obviously, this is news to (all?) of us and more discussion is required but, already there are a couple of graphs you might wanna take a look at?

LPCM V's Bitstream (off topic posts from ADA thread)

Cheers

Ferrets

Dunno, but they appear to have totally forgoten about clock sync and jitter? I doubt there's any difference between the two data streams, but there may be differences in audio quality due to the different interfaces being used o convey them? They seem to be comparing the results of two data formats via two different means of transfer, which isn't a very good way of doing things.?

To make proper comparisons then you'd need to send both the decoded LPCM and raw formats via HDMI.

[MADEINUK]

Originally Posted by dante01

Ferrets

Dunno, but they appear to have totally forgoten about clock sync and jitter? I doubt there's any difference between the two data streams, but there may be differences in audio quality due to the different interfaces being used o convey them? They seem to be comparing the results of two data formats via two different means of transfer, which isn't a very good way of doing things.?

To make proper comparisons then you'd need to send both the decoded LPCM and raw formats via HDMI.

hello, surely the LPCM, whether via HDMI or multi channel out should have a better/truer[?] sound if it's the raw sound track as recorded in the original sound suite. Or am i missing the point of the different decoded audio tracks available? sorry, this is not confusing in an obvious way, but it still perplexing.

[dante01]

Originally Posted by MADEINUK

hello, surely the LPCM, whether via HDMI or multi channel out should have a better/truer[?] sound if it's the raw sound track as recorded in the original sound suite. Or am i missing the point of the different decoded audio tracks available? sorry, this is not confusing in an obvious way, but it still perplexing.

What is being inferred is that a raw format converted to LPCM via a playback component is superior to a raw format directly bit streamed to an AV amplifier or processor for conversion and decoding. A format converted to LPCM should be bit for bit identical to the source it was derived from and therefore there should be no difference in quality.

All digital audio data is converted to PCM at some stage prior to the DAC. Some people seem to think that doing this externally or at source makes for better data. Computer science says otherwise

I believe they may be confusing differences between the was used the convey these signals rather than actually comparing like for like?

AS for the difference between the raw formats (inc. PCM as a format), see the first post of the thread:

Linear PCM (LPCM):
• MANDATORY support on BD players
• Lossless encoding
• Supports up to 8 channels of discrete audio
• Sample rates: 48, 96, 192 kHz
• Bit Depth: 16, 20, 24 bit
• Constant bit rate of up to 27.7 Mbit/s

A PCM track is an exact replication of the studio master, encoded on disc without compression. The benefit to this is that it maintains the purity of the source without any loss of fidelity that may come from compression. The downside is that an uncompressed audio track takes up a tremendous amount of disc space, which may (especially on single-layer BD25 discs) negatively affect the video quality of the movie. While the Blu-ray format is capable of utilising PCM audio up to 24-bit resolution, studios may choose to encode at 16-bit resolution instead, depending on the bit depth of the original source or concerns about conserving bandwidth (downsampling a 24-bit master to 16 bits is technically not the same thing as compression). 



Dolby TrueHD:
• OPTIONAL support on BD players
• Compressed Lossless encoding
• Supports up to 8 channels of discrete audio
• Sample rates: 48, 96, 192 kHz
• Bit Depth: 16, 20, 24 bit
• Constant bit rate of up to 18.4 Mbit/s


Dolby TrueHD is a "lossless" compression codec. It is compressed to take up less disc space than a PCM track, but once decoded it is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master at either 16-bit or 24-bit resolution (at the discretion of the studio) and a bit rate up to a maximum of 18.4 Mbps.



DTS-HD Master Audio:
• OPTIONAL support on BD players
• Lossless encoding
• Supports up to 8 channels of discrete audio
• Sample rates: 48, 96,192 kHz
• Bit Depth: 16, 20, 24 bit
• Constant bit rate of up to 24.5 Mbit/s

DTS-HD MA (previously known as DTS++) is a lossless audio codec similar to Dolby TrueHD. Like Dolby TrueHD, a disc encoded with DTS-HD MA delivers ALL of the information from the original master recording — bit-for-bit. The difference between the two is that DTS-HD MA uses a core+extension configuration (just like DTS-HD HR). A DTS-HD MA track takes up more disc space than a TrueHD track, but does not require a secondary standard track for backwards compatibility. Since both DTS-HD MA and TrueHD are lossless, they are both 100% identical in quality to the studio master, and hence identical in quality to each other (lossless 24-bit/192 kHz).


The three lossless audio formats associated with Blu-ray players' high-resolution audio soundtracks are Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA and PCM. These formats will all convey 8 discrete channels (7.1) of "lossless" audio that exactly duplicate the original studio masters.

Bitstream is usually the output of an audio or video encoder. The elementary stream contains only one kind of data, e.g. audio, video or closed caption. An elementary stream is often referred to as "elementary", "data", "audio", or "video" bitstreams or streams. The format of the elementary stream depends upon the codec or the type of data carried in the stream itself. The Source device does not decode the signal and the device receiving the bitstream must be capable of decoding it. Think of bitstreaming as passing data through untouched. For example, if your Blu Ray player cannot decode Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio but your AV receiver can, you need to set the digital output of your player to "Bitstream". In other words, the encoded audio will be streamed to the AV receiver / amp in order for it to do the decoding.

Linear pulse code modulation (LPCM) is a method of encoding audio information digitally. The term also refers collectively to formats using this method of encoding. LPCM can be included on the disc itself or the player can derive LPCM from other digital tracks if it posses the ability to decode them. The player then transports the raw LPCM or decoded as LPCM audio through the player's digital connections to other devices such as an AV receiver. For example, if your Blu Ray player can decode Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio but your AV receiver can't, you need to set the digital output of your player to "LPCM" or "PCM". In other words, the encoded audio will be decoded by the player in order for it to be streamed to the AV receiver / amp as LPCM.

LPCM is used for the lossless encoding of audio data in the compact disc Red Book standard and has been defined as a part of the DVD and Blu-ray standards as well as the digital audio standard frequently called AES/EBU. Stereo LPCM is one of the mandatory audio formats that all DVD players and processors must support.

The term PCM is often used to describe data encoded as LPCM. PCM is a digital representation of an analog signal where the magnitude of the signal is sampled at regular intervals and then mapped (quantized) into binary code. The quantization is necessary because CPUs are used to implement DSP (Digital Signal Processing). Computers can only process finite quantities at any one time. Signals need to be mapped to fit a finite resolution, so that they can be stored in a CPUs registers and memory while the DSP takes place. PCM ís basically a stream of "1s" and "0s" (bits, "ons" and "offs") that precisely describe the frequencies and relative loudness (amplitude) of a music signal. No data is discarded to conserve bandwidth or reduce file size. The "1s" and "0s" are used by the DAC to reconstruct the original audio in order that the original audio may then be amplified and output as analogue by your AV amp or receiver.

Quantization is the fundamental element that distinguishes lossy data compression from lossless data compression, and the use of quantization is nearly always motivated by the need to reduce the amount of data needed to represent a signal.

Aimost all new BD players can decode the Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA lossless audio and send it to your receiver as a multichannel LPCM stream. Just about any modern AV receiver can decode LPCM even if unable to decode Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio. The LPCM audio is identical to the Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA original format, so no quality is lost.

[Neil Davidson]

I hate that thread but the original point is:

certain Blu-ray players had measurably different signals on their own analogue outputs when compared to the analogue output of a processor playing back the same "HD Codec" track.

Draw your own conclusions as to why that may be the case.

[Strawbs]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

I hate that thread but the original point is:

certain Blu-ray players had measurably different signals on their own analogue outputs when compared to the analogue output of a processor playing back the same "HD Codec" track.

Draw your own conclusions as to why that may be the case.

can we assume that when you say "measurably different", you mean inferior?

[499520]

Simple question for those who have upgraded.
can you actually tell the difference between HD sound and standard 5.1 from a DVD?

I'm thinking of upgrading my AVR250 to a more up to date receiver.

Cheers Phil

[kmac_17]

Originally Posted by 499520

Simple question for those who have upgraded.
can you actually tell the difference between HD sound and standard 5.1 from a DVD?

I'm thinking of upgrading my AVR250 to a more up to date receiver.

Cheers Phil

i upgraded about 6 months ago and my "Up" on BD vs DVD (Got it as gift) seems to have a much wider range and the rears seem to be more discrete.

Fronts and centre are marginal and maybe sub channel is a bit tighter.

I dont have any other Dvd to compare to and the bluray i have only have english in the tru-hd or dts-ma or stereo

Avatar sounds amazing, but thats probably just avatar and not the sound format.

[kempez]

Originally Posted by 499520

Simple question for those who have upgraded.
can you actually tell the difference between HD sound and standard 5.1 from a DVD?

I'm thinking of upgrading my AVR250 to a more up to date receiver.

Cheers Phil

I think there's an actual real-world difference between DTS and DTS HD MA, as well as between DD and DD-True HD

I'm using 5.1 on my setups (see sig).

In my opinion....voices are better imaged in general and clearer. Ambient surround sounds like music (for instance music behind you in a scene), is more pronounced and surround effects seem better placed. Things like shards of glass flying around seem to be so clear you can imagine where they're falling around you.

The standard def sound formats have these, but in general (to my ears/senses), they seem more 'real' and more placed in the sound field.

LFE is also harder hitting and more controlled.

All this is for me and only really comes out properly in my full, but cheapish), setup. I do notice the difference though.

[poolside]

I personally think that when you 'upgrade' there is an expectation of better 'performance' and therefore you may perceive an enhancement, when maybe there is none (or very little) to the human ears - especially when they are 55 years old !!!

[kempez]

Originally Posted by poolside

I personally think that when you 'upgrade' there is an expectation of better 'performance' and therefore you may perceive an enhancement, when maybe there is none (or very little) to the human ears - especially when they are 55 years old !!!

Maybe for some, but I was fully ready to take my shiny new amp back to the store if I'd not noticed a difference.

[benclement11]

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V467
TV: Toshiba 55G300U
PS3

I have everything set per the video on the first page. Yet, when i hit select on the PS3 remote it only shows it as "Dolby Digital" and not PCM or LPCM. I have tried switching my reciever to "direct" and "straight" but niether seem to work. What have I done wrong? I have 300 in and the Blu Ray says it supports TrueHD so I know I must have something set wrong. I've read pages and pages but all I can ever find is people whining about the TruHd light not coming on the receiver... so I know the answer to that. I wish I could get to the point of having that "problem".

[dante01]

Originally Posted by benclement11

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V467
TV: Toshiba 55G300U
PS3

I have everything set per the video on the first page. Yet, when i hit select on the PS3 remote it only shows it as "Dolby Digital" and not PCM or LPCM. I have tried switching my reciever to "direct" and "straight" but niether seem to work. What have I done wrong? I have 300 in and the Blu Ray says it supports TrueHD so I know I must have something set wrong. I've read pages and pages but all I can ever find is people whining about the TruHd light not coming on the receiver... so I know the answer to that. I wish I could get to the point of having that "problem".

The video shows settings for the older PS3 which cannot Bitstream HD audio. Is your PS3 the old model or the new Slim model? With the Slim PS3, setting the BD/DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI) setting to BITSTREAM enables the raw HD formats to be output via HDMI.

Note that BD titles with a TrueHD encoding require that you specifically select that format in the discs setup/options menu prior to playback. DTS-HD MA encoded audio is automatically prioritised and sent when a capable receiver is detected. If you don't select TrueHD then you get SD audio such as Dolby Digital.

Dolby Digital is an SD format and neither PS3 models have issue with streaming non HD formats. The PS3 is sending Dolby Digital because you didn't select TrueHD as the desired audio via the disc's menu prior to playback. Set the BD/DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI) setting on the PS3 to LPCM. Select TrueHD as the format via the 300 BD's menu and play the film. PCM should appear on the amp rather than TrueHD

Also ensure that the amp's HDMI audio output is set to just AMP and not AMP+TV.