[Chris Moseley]

Hi All

I have noticed quite a bit of confusion over HDMI v1.3 and what some people perceive it to do. To help, I have tried to simplify it as much as possible below.

We already know that HDMI is very misunderstood and when people have questions regarding HDMI (which are often asked prior to parting with money), are often not being given the correct answers. We have already produce a basic guide to HDMI which many of you have found helpful (this is available to download from the FAQ section in the cables forum).
However, this guide does not bring up many points regarding HDMI v1.3.

The main differences between HDMI versions are summarised below:

HDMI v1.0 supports video (up to 1080p) and audio (using PCM or AC3 or DTS bitstreams)
HDMI v1.1 supports as v1.0 but also supports the transport of MPL (Audio DVD digital data)
HDMI v1.2(a) supports as v1.1 but also supports the transport of DSD (SACD digital data)
HDMI v1.3 supports as 1.2(a) and has the following additional support:
Deeper colour - potential to transport up to 48 bit colour depths
Alternative colour space - potential to carry the xvYCC colourspace
Automatic Lip-sync adjustment - potential to automatically sync audio to video
Higher video resolution - potential to transport up to 1440p video signals
HD Audio Bitstream - potential to carry the digital bitstreams from Dolby and DTS HD audio formats

You will notice that in all of the cases above the differences between the versions are all quoted as what they can POTENTIALLY offer - NOT what having a device with HDMI v1.3 can actually provide. It’s
essential that people realise that just having a product with HDMI v1.3 does not mean they will get better video or sound! Perhaps the best example of this is the video resolution potential. Everyone is
talking about 1080p. 1080p is now regarded as the pinnacle of HD video (that’s another issue though!). No one would suggest that by having a device with HDMI v1.3 that you automatically increase your video resolution to 1440p - but will assume that having a device with HDMI v1.3 will mean they do get auto lip-sync, do automatically get higher colour depths and do automatically get the ability to carry HD audio bitsteams - NONE are true. HDMI v1.3 just means the cable could carry this data if it’s available and if both source and sink (receiving device) can handle it.

HDMI v1.3 is very much ahead of the technology that will be using it. To date, no displays can use xvYCC colourspaces (although Sony have recently announced a 70" $30,000 screen) just RGB or YUV, and no displays can use more than 24bit colour. These facilities have been allowed for in v1.3 for future use.

One of the most talked about and consequently most misunderstood improvement is the ability for HDMI v1.3 to carry HD audio bitstreams.

Dolby and DTS have both each recently announced two new HD audio formats Dolby's are Dolby Digital Plus (a lossy format) and Dolby True HD (a lossless format) DTS have released DTS HD (lossy) and DTS HD Master Audio (lossless). These formats are stored on the discs (either HD DVD or Bluray, but NOT standard DVD’s) in a compressed format. The name of the format is the compression system that is used in each case (ie, Dolby True HD uses Dolby True HD compression). For us to hear compressed data, two processes must happen. The first is the data must be decompressed (using a decoder). The second is the data must be converted to analogue (using DAC’s). Once both these processes have happened, we can hear the audio.

In order for these processes to happen, we need two devices, a decoder and a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter). These devices can either exist in an AV amp, or the HD DVD/Bluray source or both. If both have decoders, only one of these devices will be used - a bit like if a CD player is connected to an amp with an optical cable, we would be using the DAC in the amp and the players DAC would not be used.

With HD Audio, we have three possible connection methods to allow the audio data to be heard. We can not use optical or coaxial digital connections at all, due to the bandwidth requirements of these formats.

The first option is to transfer the HD audio bitstream from source to amp.
This means the following is required; HD audio, HDMI v1.3 source (ie Bluray or HDDVD, an HDMI v1.3 repeater equipped AV amp with HD audio decoder and an HD disc which does NOT restrict bitstream transfer


The next method is the standard most people will need to use - most interestingly and importantly, it requires HDMI v1.1 - version 1.3 is NOT required:

This method uses a single HDMI connection to carry the HD audio data to the amp. The HDMI cable carries digital data, so the amp’s DAC’s are used to convert this digital data to analogue. The
reason the HD audio can be transferred using HDMI v1.0 is that the player, knowing it can not output the HD bitstream, uses another popular digital transfer method instead - PCM(multi channel). This does not result in any quality loss, just simply means the data is transferred differently. The player actually decodes the data so there's no need for the amp to have HD audio decoders either.

The final method of transfer is to use the player to both decode and convert the digital data to analogue. This then requires one cable per audio channel (typically 6 or 8) to carry the signals from player to the amp. The player must also have the facility to output multi channel analogue signals and the amp you use must also be able to accept them. Most amps can, but are unlikely to be able to add any processing to these signals. For this reason, the digital transfer method tends to be preferred, especially when you consider that these HD formats are currently only 6 channel, so to use 7.1 systems would require post processing such as PLIIx).

Realistically, the only feature that HDMI v1.3 can make use of at the moment and in the near future is the auto lip sync feature, which would require source or repeater, and sink to be HDMI v1.3 and compatible with that feature. All the other features possible to carry via HDMI v1.3 are a way off yet.

Even so, you will find that manufacturers all start using HDMI v1.3 on their products to ensure the latest specs are adhered to but don't worry if your amp doesn't support it just yet! Your far better off worrying about features and quality of a product rather than the version of HDMI that it's using.

Hope this is of some help. Mods feel free to delete this if it's in violation of any rules.

Regards

Chris Moseley
Yamaha UK

[Jase]

This needs to be made a Sticky.

[Cyprio]

Originally Posted by Jase

This needs to be made a Sticky.

Yep - second that.

[batty]

At last a clear explanation

[Tonto]

Fantastic!

[kumamoto]

Thanks for clearing it all up. The amp of my dreams was the marantz sr 9600 but was being put offf by the fact that it only supports HDMI v1.1 .
Will have to get one now!!

[breadmaker6]

So how much do I spend on cables then!

[FunkyMonkey]

Yes, Mods, please make this a sticky.

Members, please do not discuss the reasons for buying HDMI 1.3 (or not) as this has been discussed in many threads.

Please only update this thread if there were inaccuracies in the original post. This way, this most useful thread will be as clean and lean as possible.

Thanks.

[NaTT]

second the sticky.

It doesn't matter that Chris represents a manufacturer who's product range doesn't include HDMI 1.3. I'm impressed they don't do badges for badges sake, I think they've adopted this philosophy for THX.

I've been weighing up buying a new receiver for a few months now (which has meant loads of reading; here, avsforums, Dolby's site, DTS's site and Wikpedia) I concur with all of Chris "white paper" and have been making a nuisance of myself trying to spread this message to see if anyone can contradict it.

How convinced am I? My RX-V2700 has just arrived at Sevenoaks (but I can't leave the office in time to ge it today )

I'm only hoping that it can be made to pass 1080p/24 before I get a screen capable of it (but I read it's possible to "trick" it into doing so without it being able to confim it is doing so, but it does).

[spiderbundy]

Chris thanks for the info mate, very much appreciated.

Could you just clarify a couple of things for me if you dont mind (as i'm a bit slow!! )

I have a HD-XE1 and a Pioneer VSX2016 ....Which is the best way for me to recieve the best audio possible? ...If i use HDMI i can get the full Dolby True Hd? (although i need to get the firmware on the Pioneer updated to correct the LFE deficit) And if i use the analogue outs i can also get True HD but will be limited to 5.1 only?

Thanks in advance,

[Knyght_byte]

Given how frequently HDMI 1.3 pops up I will be making this a sticky for the nursery period of amp releases. After that it will be incorporated in to a general FAQ once I get round to finishing it

cheers Chris for going to the trouble to write all this up.

I would appreciate if people want amp specific advice you make your own thread as usual, however should anyone want clarification on HDMI in a general sense use the Cables forum section if its not specific to the amp end, if it is then post in here and it'll either stay or become its own thread depending on its relevence.

One point I would like to make which I have before, Chris mentions that most of 1.3's potential benefits lie in the future, with some of these its obviously a way in to the future, however in respect to the audio, its possible that having decoding in the amp of the bitstreams could prove useful if the PC/online industries realise the potential of media downloads for HQ AV and begin to do download centres for BR/HD-DVD quality media with the sound being in HD as well. If this happens, then the file would route the sound via the video cards HDMI output (latest gen ATi cards are already available to do this although i'm not 100% sure at this time what version HDMI they are) in to the amp to decode as the video card most likely wont be able to deal with the bitstream, simply act as a passthrough device. Whether this is something that would happen soon or not I dont know, but given how media PC's are starting to get some serious backing now I wouldnt mind betting there is a chance that a v1.3 amp could actually prove useful within as soon as a year. I might be wrong, I might be right. Its a point I feel is valid as more and more people now use PC's. However as Chris ended on, the most important thing to look for in your amp is that it integrates with your system, that it has the sound quality you prefer, and that it has the main features you will require of it immediately. (it doesnt hurt to consider the future however if the purchase is likely to be your only one for the next 5+ years).

anyhow, stickyfying now

[NaTT]

Originally Posted by spiderbundy

I have a HD-XE1 and a Pioneer VSX2016 ....Which is the best way for me to recieve the best audio possible? ...If i use HDMI i can get the full Dolby True Hd? (although i need to get the firmware on the Pioneer updated to correct the LFE deficit) And if i use the analogue outs i can also get True HD but will be limited to 5.1 only?

Thanks in advance,

I'll pick this up...
Set your HD-DVD player to output LPCM (or PCM) over HDMI.
Set your reciever to process the above over HDMI for that input
Choose the DD HD track on movies that have it.
Sorted.

+ Do a search to see if your receiver can compensate for the -10db on the LFE (subwoofer) channel, an affliction that means that doing the above means the LFE channel is inaudible on some amplifiers.

[NaTT]

Originally Posted by Knyght_byte

One point I would like to make which I have before, Chris mentions that most of 1.3's potential benefits lie in the future, with some of these its obviously a way in to the future, however in respect to the audio, its possible that having decoding in the amp of the bitstreams could prove useful if the PC/online industries realise the potential of media downloads for HQ AV and begin to do download centres for BR/HD-DVD quality media with the sound being in HD as well. If this happens, then the file would route the sound via the video cards HDMI output (latest gen ATi cards are already available to do this although i'm not 100% sure at this time what version HDMI they are) in to the amp to decode as the video card most likely wont be able to deal with the bitstream, simply act as a passthrough device. Whether this is something that would happen soon or not I dont know, but given how media PC's are starting to get some serious backing now I wouldnt mind betting there is a chance that a v1.3 amp could actually prove useful within as soon as a year. I might be wrong, I might be right. Its a point I feel is valid as more and more people now use PC's.

There aren't any PC graphics/audi HDMI cards available yet... that provide the HD audio. Current cards are just routing SPDIF over the HDMI lead and that doesn't have the bandwidth for bitstream files or decoded LPCM.
Give it a few hours from a manufacturer saying they might and I'll post in the HCPC section!

Further it's not a HCPC "thing", these download centres are planned to be accessed by the "appliance" players as well as PCs, by means of a network port in the back.

And to debunk further (sorry, not having a go) reading the Dolby and DTS specs suggests that they want the decoding to PCM of their compressed files, to be done in the player (more to the point Hollywood wants this and has coded all the BDs and HD-DVDs to only allow this) extra content will probaly be added to the decoded (uncompressed) audi tracks by the player, not our receivers/amps.

So an HDMI 1.3 amp, for audio at least, hasn't got an imminent or forseable use.

[Cyprio]

Originally Posted by Chris Moseley

Even so, you will find that manufacturers all start using HDMI v1.3 on their products to ensure the latest specs are adhered to but don't worry if your amp doesn't support it just yet! Your far better off worrying about features and quality of a product rather than the version of HDMI that it's using.

Hope this is of some help. Mods feel free to delete this if it's in violation of any rules.

Regards

Chris Moseley
Yamaha UK

Chris,
when will Yamaha be entering the v1.3 arena.

[Knyght_byte]

Originally Posted by NaTT

There aren't any PC graphics/audi HDMI cards available yet... that provide the HD audio. Current cards are just routing SPDIF over the HDMI lead and that doesn't have the bandwidth for bitstream files or decoded LPCM.
Give it a few hours from a manufacturer saying they might and I'll post in the HCPC section!

Further it's not a HCPC "thing", these download centres are planned to be accessed by the "appliance" players as well as PCs, by means of a network port in the back.

And to debunk further (sorry, not having a go) reading the Dolby and DTS specs suggests that they want the decoding to PCM of their compressed files, to be done in the player (more to the point Hollywood wants this and has coded all the BDs and HD-DVDs to only allow this) extra content will probaly be added to the decoded (uncompressed) audi tracks by the player, not our receivers/amps.

So an HDMI 1.3 amp, for audio at least, hasn't got an imminent or forseable use.

Graphics cards are released so rapidly nowadays it would be a matter of a months R&D and the same again for manufacturing to bring the outputs up to speed to pass through a HD audio signal....the technology is old, DVD-A (which is basically what HD-Audio is) has been around for ages now..

As for Hollywood/Dolby wanting it done in the appliance, thats really only applicable to optical disc based appliances......a streaming network device doesnt need to decode.....example being how many set top boxes, sky, cable or freeview do you know that have 6 channel outputs?.......its not worth putting decoders in to all those boxes if 2/3 of the population wont make use of them.....those people who want ppm/v HD quality audio are more than likely going to have an amp that can do the job instead.....yes currently they are spouting that they want it done in appliance, but how long before Murdoch and the other various patriachs figure it would be a waste of money building decoders in to their equipment when someone else can do it for them......whilst i dont see HD audio being streamed for a year, possible two, i also dont personally spend £600+ on something for it to be limited in a couple years time when for the sake of a few months waiting I know I wont have that worry.....

anyhow, the debate can go back and forth with each person reiterating their points, as Chris has put it, if you are mainly worried about using optical disc based media then you dont need HDMI v1.3......if you are worried about the future and dont want to buy another amp for 5yrs or so, then personally i'd say wait for the 1.3's to come out as they are not exactly far off now......mebbe i'll be wrong...but for spending that much money with only a month or two at most to go it'd be a shame to regret it later.

[NaTT]

Hiya Knyght byte,
Some good points and food for thought, I'd not thought about the streamining broadcast side of things before now. Should have done given by belief this is the last format war (BD vs HD-DVD) because there won't be need for portable disk storage after this war (controversial).

I'm less optomistic on the graphic/audio card development cycles front. The HD2XXX series just released, was 2 years in development and was hyped as having the HD audio capability and then it didn't. Hopefully it'll be implemented in a small revision in diferrent versions of that card.

I think "Holywood" will mandate that if Murdoch et al want to broadcast their lurvely movies in HD Video and Audio then they'll jolly well have to provide STBs / streaming appliances that decode the content and not let it be sent to secondary devices such as amps/receivers to do it, where the chain goes out of their control and is more easily hacked.
Who's going to design a system where by the main audio comes from Sky and then your Reciever gets additional audio content from the internet and overlays it?

Given Chris's employer I think we can summise that Yammaha for one, aren't about to launch 1.3 equiped receivers very soon. No doubt they will, its just that it shouldn't be seen as current requirement when buying.

[norge]

Chris, very interesting and informative lecture

Thanks

[Knyght_byte]

Originally Posted by NaTT

Hiya Knyght byte,
Some good points and food for thought, I'd not thought about the streamining broadcast side of things before now. Should have done given by belief this is the last format war (BD vs HD-DVD) because there won't be need for portable disk storage after this war (controversial).

I'm less optomistic on the graphic/audio card development cycles front. The HD2XXX series just released, was 2 years in development and was hyped as having the HD audio capability and then it didn't. Hopefully it'll be implemented in a small revision in diferrent versions of that card.

I think "Holywood" will mandate that if Murdoch et al want to broadcast their lurvely movies in HD Video and Audio then they'll jolly well have to provide STBs / streaming appliances that decode the content and not let it be sent to secondary devices such as amps/receivers to do it, where the chain goes out of their control and is more easily hacked.
Who's going to design a system where by the main audio comes from Sky and then your Reciever gets additional audio content from the internet and overlays it?

Given Chris's employer I think we can summise that Yammaha for one, aren't about to launch 1.3 equiped receivers very soon. No doubt they will, its just that it shouldn't be seen as current requirement when buying.

Dont forget Murdoch owns Fox......in other words, he is a major hollywood player...if he wants decoderless boxes, he'll get them...lol

Originally Posted by Cyprio

Chris,
when will Yamaha be entering the v1.3 arena.

According to the AVS forums the Yamaha RXV1800/2800 will be out in a month or two, featuring HDMI v1.3

[mistarjay]

A very interesting and informative read, thank you very much!

[stevos]

A couple of additions

1. Optical does have the bandwidth to carry the highdef formats and some, but doesn't have the copy protection systems built into the standard.

2. The potential advantage of hdmi1.3 is in leaving the amp to do the decoding. As in all true seperates this allows you to upgrade individual parts. I can see a time when you have a bluray/hdvd transport, a decoder and dac and a power amp. If you are doing the decoding and dac process in one place there is less of an issue of processing speed/adding more lipsync issues (this happened with the old dolby digital amps). Of course this is theorical at the minute and may not play out.

[NaTT]

having 1 device or another unzip the audio file can hardly be considered an upgrade

[stevos]

Originally Posted by NaTT

having 1 device or another unzip the audio file can hardly be considered an upgrade

Seems to make a huge difference on the cd player front. This is why I have a seperate transport and dac for playing cd's (not that i have actually used it for months thanks to the squeezebox, far too much effort changing cd's these days ).

[NaTT]

CDs don't have compressed Audio.

They have 2 channel uncompressed PCM channels. You can use the DACs (Digital Audio Convertors) of your player and output over analogue, or you can use the DAC of your Receiver by outputing over S/PDIF.

DACs are hugely imporant and one can be significantly different to another.

Where it's different in the AV world is since the advent of 5.1 channel tracks it became necessary to strore the PCM tracks in a compressed format (both are digital) to fit on a DVD.
To fit on a DVD the comrpession is lossy.
With extra space of BDs and HD-DVDs they have sometime managed to fit 5.1 LPCM with no compression on (e.g. BD Casino Royale) and now often the LPCM track is compressed into DTS-MA or DD-TruHD.

Uncompressing these losslessly compressed tracks remains in the digital domain and so, vague jitter and timing arguements aside, no one device can claim to be better than another.

Player sends LPCM stream to Receiver which converts it to analogue
or
Player sends Bitstream of compressed track to receiver which uncompresses it LPCM and then converts it to analogue

the result is exactly the same (if the latter were indeed technically possible due to disc constraints).

Spend your money on reputable / demonstrable (to your ear) DAC abilities of a receiver, not logos and uncompressing abilities.

[matty2767]

i have read these posts a few times now trying to get my head around this. can someone tell me if i am right.

if i have a denon amp 2807 (hdmi v1.1). and a ps3 with a bluray disk that has a hd soundtrack on it then i am not going to be able to hear the sound as it wont come throught the cable. the only way this will work is if the ps3 can decode the audio itself and then pass this info to the amp to distribute to the speakers.

thanks

[NaTT]

you'll be able to hear the HD sound track and the non HD soundtracks that are always present.
If the audio needs decoding (becasue it's been compressed by Doby or DTS means) the PS3 will decode it to LPCM and send it to your amp.
Lots of BDs don't even need decoding as the HD audio is stored as LPCM.

but yes the only way you'll hear it is to have the PS3 send decoded LPCM, but that's not the PS3 or your amp's fault or lack of ability; it's the security embeded in the media disk.

would anyone mind if i had this posted as an announcement on the xbox forums!?

Thanks

[Nexsen]

I'm responding to Chris' excellent post of 4/06/07 but didn't want to duplicate it here so I'll copy the quote I want to clarify:

Chris said: "Realistically, the only feature that HDMI v1.3 can make use of at the moment and in the near future is the auto lip sync feature, which would require source, repeater and sink to be HDMI v1.3 and compatible with that feature. All the other features possible to carry via HDMI v1.3 are a way off yet. "

I think HDMI's "auto lip-sync feature" is grossly misunderstood. In 1.3 they simply added a protocol within the EDID handshaking that would allow a display to tell an av receiver what fixed delay it adds to the video so if the av receiver has a delay capability it can delay the audio by that fixed amount before sending it to its amplifiers. Most av receivers today can already delay the audio by a fixed amount so the HDMI 1.3 feature simply keeps you from having to make that set-up adjustment ONE TIME (since the display will give it to the receiver) but a fixed delay like most av receivers offer doesn’t solve the lip-sync problem. If it did there wouldn't be a market for the three dedicated lip-sync correction boxes reviewed this month at www.audaud.com.

Video delay and consequently lip-synch error is not only potentially different on each of your sources (before the display even gets the signal) but it can vary by 40 or 50 ms over the course of a day on the same network and nearly that much from one DVD to the next. The only way to get perfect lip-sync is to subjectively adjust the audio delay to match the video delay from program to program since there is no time stamp or watermark in the video and audio to define when it was ever in sync. "Automatic lip-sync correction" is therefore imposible.

So basically HDMI 1.3's "automatic lip sync correction" will save you the time to go through all those menus and set your av amps fixed audio delay ONCE but you still won't have any better lip-sync. A receiver that has a plus and minus button on its remote that will allow audio delay tweaking without distrurbing the image (like these dedicated delay boxes do)
would be an infinitely better choice than HDMI 1.3's misnomer of "auto lip-sync correction".

[bradavon78]

Great article Chris. I use your third method as my amp being older has no HDMI connections. It's not ideal but at least it means I can listen to all the new HD Audio formats.

Just one correction though:

With HD Audio, we have three possible connection methods to allow the audio data to be heard. We can not use optical or coaxial digital connections at all, due to the bandwidth requirements of these formats.

Not quite correct.

Both Optical and Coaxial are capable of carrying Dolby Digital Plus signals (many older amps pick them up as if they were DTS) as DD Plus' top bitrate is 1.5Mbps and both Optical/Coaxial are capable of handling this.

[Chris Moseley]

Originally Posted by bradavon78

Just one correction though:


Not quite correct.

Both Optical and Coaxial are capable of carrying Dolby Digital Plus signals (many older amps pick them up as if they were DTS) as DD Plus' top bitrate is 1.5Mbps and both Optical/Coaxial are capable of handling this.

Hi

You are correct that optical and coax, as cables do have the banwidth to carry these signals, but for simplicity that was the reason I gave - in fact the SPDIF standard (do not confuse this with optical and coax cables as a physical cable) does not have the required bandwidth (in some cases) or copy protection systems to handle these formats correctly. It could have been modified (ie SPDIF2) to do so, but HDMI was chosen as it can handle images too. If you are using DD+ there is no way the amp can see DTS. If it's reporting as such then this may be the issue (see post 28). Basically your system is using the DTS Core substream instead of the DD+ soundtrack (which will be mandatory on both Bluray and HDDVD titles).

Regards

Chris Moseley
Yamaha UK