HDMI v1.3

[Chris Moseley]

Hi All

I have noticed quite a bit of confusion over HDMI v1.3 and what some people perceive it to do. To help, I have tried to simplify it as much as possible below.

We already know that HDMI is very misunderstood and when people have questions regarding HDMI (which are often asked prior to parting with money), are often not being given the correct answers. We have already produce a basic guide to HDMI which many of you have found helpful (this is available to download from the FAQ section in the cables forum).
However, this guide does not bring up many points regarding HDMI v1.3.

The main differences between HDMI versions are summarised below:

HDMI v1.0 supports video (up to 1080p) and audio (using PCM or AC3 or DTS bitstreams)
HDMI v1.1 supports as v1.0 but also supports the transport of MPL (Audio DVD digital data)
HDMI v1.2(a) supports as v1.1 but also supports the transport of DSD (SACD digital data)
HDMI v1.3 supports as 1.2(a) and has the following additional support:
Deeper colour - potential to transport up to 48 bit colour depths
Alternative colour space - potential to carry the xvYCC colourspace
Automatic Lip-sync adjustment - potential to automatically sync audio to video
Higher video resolution - potential to transport up to 1440p video signals
HD Audio Bitstream - potential to carry the digital bitstreams from Dolby and DTS HD audio formats

You will notice that in all of the cases above the differences between the versions are all quoted as what they can POTENTIALLY offer - NOT what having a device with HDMI v1.3 can actually provide. It’s
essential that people realise that just having a product with HDMI v1.3 does not mean they will get better video or sound! Perhaps the best example of this is the video resolution potential. Everyone is
talking about 1080p. 1080p is now regarded as the pinnacle of HD video (that’s another issue though!). No one would suggest that by having a device with HDMI v1.3 that you automatically increase your video resolution to 1440p - but will assume that having a device with HDMI v1.3 will mean they do get auto lip-sync, do automatically get higher colour depths and do automatically get the ability to carry HD audio bitsteams - NONE are true. HDMI v1.3 just means the cable could carry this data if it’s available and if both source and sink (receiving device) can handle it.

HDMI v1.3 is very much ahead of the technology that will be using it. To date, no displays can use xvYCC colourspaces (although Sony have recently announced a 70" $30,000 screen) just RGB or YUV, and no displays can use more than 24bit colour. These facilities have been allowed for in v1.3 for future use.

One of the most talked about and consequently most misunderstood improvement is the ability for HDMI v1.3 to carry HD audio bitstreams.

Dolby and DTS have both each recently announced two new HD audio formats Dolby's are Dolby Digital Plus (a lossy format) and Dolby True HD (a lossless format) DTS have released DTS HD (lossy) and DTS HD Master Audio (lossless). These formats are stored on the discs (either HD DVD or Bluray, but NOT standard DVD’s) in a compressed format. The name of the format is the compression system that is used in each case (ie, Dolby True HD uses Dolby True HD compression). For us to hear compressed data, two processes must happen. The first is the data must be decompressed (using a decoder). The second is the data must be converted to analogue (using DAC’s). Once both these processes have happened, we can hear the audio.

In order for these processes to happen, we need two devices, a decoder and a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter). These devices can either exist in an AV amp, or the HD DVD/Bluray source or both. If both have decoders, only one of these devices will be used - a bit like if a CD player is connected to an amp with an optical cable, we would be using the DAC in the amp and the players DAC would not be used.

With HD Audio, we have three possible connection methods to allow the audio data to be heard. We can not use optical or coaxial digital connections at all, due to the bandwidth requirements of these formats.

The first option is to transfer the HD audio bitstream from source to amp.
This means the following is required; HD audio, HDMI v1.3 source (ie Bluray or HDDVD, an HDMI v1.3 repeater equipped AV amp with HD audio decoder and an HD disc which does NOT restrict bitstream transfer


The next method is the standard most people will need to use - most interestingly and importantly, it requires HDMI v1.1 - version 1.3 is NOT required:

This method uses a single HDMI connection to carry the HD audio data to the amp. The HDMI cable carries digital data, so the amp’s DAC’s are used to convert this digital data to analogue. The
reason the HD audio can be transferred using HDMI v1.0 is that the player, knowing it can not output the HD bitstream, uses another popular digital transfer method instead - PCM(multi channel). This does not result in any quality loss, just simply means the data is transferred differently. The player actually decodes the data so there's no need for the amp to have HD audio decoders either.

The final method of transfer is to use the player to both decode and convert the digital data to analogue. This then requires one cable per audio channel (typically 6 or 8) to carry the signals from player to the amp. The player must also have the facility to output multi channel analogue signals and the amp you use must also be able to accept them. Most amps can, but are unlikely to be able to add any processing to these signals. For this reason, the digital transfer method tends to be preferred, especially when you consider that these HD formats are currently only 6 channel, so to use 7.1 systems would require post processing such as PLIIx).

Realistically, the only feature that HDMI v1.3 can make use of at the moment and in the near future is the auto lip sync feature, which would require source or repeater, and sink to be HDMI v1.3 and compatible with that feature. All the other features possible to carry via HDMI v1.3 are a way off yet.

Even so, you will find that manufacturers all start using HDMI v1.3 on their products to ensure the latest specs are adhered to but don't worry if your amp doesn't support it just yet! Your far better off worrying about features and quality of a product rather than the version of HDMI that it's using.

Hope this is of some help. Mods feel free to delete this if it's in violation of any rules.

Regards

Chris Moseley
Yamaha UK

[Jase]

This needs to be made a Sticky.

[Cyprio]

Originally Posted by Jase

This needs to be made a Sticky.

Yep - second that.

[batty]

At last a clear explanation

[Tonto]

Fantastic!

[kumamoto]

Thanks for clearing it all up. The amp of my dreams was the marantz sr 9600 but was being put offf by the fact that it only supports HDMI v1.1 .
Will have to get one now!!

[breadmaker6]

So how much do I spend on cables then!

[FunkyMonkey]

Yes, Mods, please make this a sticky.

Members, please do not discuss the reasons for buying HDMI 1.3 (or not) as this has been discussed in many threads.

Please only update this thread if there were inaccuracies in the original post. This way, this most useful thread will be as clean and lean as possible.

Thanks.

[NaTT]

second the sticky.

It doesn't matter that Chris represents a manufacturer who's product range doesn't include HDMI 1.3. I'm impressed they don't do badges for badges sake, I think they've adopted this philosophy for THX.

I've been weighing up buying a new receiver for a few months now (which has meant loads of reading; here, avsforums, Dolby's site, DTS's site and Wikpedia) I concur with all of Chris "white paper" and have been making a nuisance of myself trying to spread this message to see if anyone can contradict it.

How convinced am I? My RX-V2700 has just arrived at Sevenoaks (but I can't leave the office in time to ge it today )

I'm only hoping that it can be made to pass 1080p/24 before I get a screen capable of it (but I read it's possible to "trick" it into doing so without it being able to confim it is doing so, but it does).

[spiderbundy]

Chris thanks for the info mate, very much appreciated.

Could you just clarify a couple of things for me if you dont mind (as i'm a bit slow!! )

I have a HD-XE1 and a Pioneer VSX2016 ....Which is the best way for me to recieve the best audio possible? ...If i use HDMI i can get the full Dolby True Hd? (although i need to get the firmware on the Pioneer updated to correct the LFE deficit) And if i use the analogue outs i can also get True HD but will be limited to 5.1 only?

Thanks in advance,

[Knyght_byte]

Given how frequently HDMI 1.3 pops up I will be making this a sticky for the nursery period of amp releases. After that it will be incorporated in to a general FAQ once I get round to finishing it

cheers Chris for going to the trouble to write all this up.

I would appreciate if people want amp specific advice you make your own thread as usual, however should anyone want clarification on HDMI in a general sense use the Cables forum section if its not specific to the amp end, if it is then post in here and it'll either stay or become its own thread depending on its relevence.

One point I would like to make which I have before, Chris mentions that most of 1.3's potential benefits lie in the future, with some of these its obviously a way in to the future, however in respect to the audio, its possible that having decoding in the amp of the bitstreams could prove useful if the PC/online industries realise the potential of media downloads for HQ AV and begin to do download centres for BR/HD-DVD quality media with the sound being in HD as well. If this happens, then the file would route the sound via the video cards HDMI output (latest gen ATi cards are already available to do this although i'm not 100% sure at this time what version HDMI they are) in to the amp to decode as the video card most likely wont be able to deal with the bitstream, simply act as a passthrough device. Whether this is something that would happen soon or not I dont know, but given how media PC's are starting to get some serious backing now I wouldnt mind betting there is a chance that a v1.3 amp could actually prove useful within as soon as a year. I might be wrong, I might be right. Its a point I feel is valid as more and more people now use PC's. However as Chris ended on, the most important thing to look for in your amp is that it integrates with your system, that it has the sound quality you prefer, and that it has the main features you will require of it immediately. (it doesnt hurt to consider the future however if the purchase is likely to be your only one for the next 5+ years).

anyhow, stickyfying now

[NaTT]

Originally Posted by spiderbundy

I have a HD-XE1 and a Pioneer VSX2016 ....Which is the best way for me to recieve the best audio possible? ...If i use HDMI i can get the full Dolby True Hd? (although i need to get the firmware on the Pioneer updated to correct the LFE deficit) And if i use the analogue outs i can also get True HD but will be limited to 5.1 only?

Thanks in advance,

I'll pick this up...
Set your HD-DVD player to output LPCM (or PCM) over HDMI.
Set your reciever to process the above over HDMI for that input
Choose the DD HD track on movies that have it.
Sorted.

+ Do a search to see if your receiver can compensate for the -10db on the LFE (subwoofer) channel, an affliction that means that doing the above means the LFE channel is inaudible on some amplifiers.

[NaTT]

Originally Posted by Knyght_byte

One point I would like to make which I have before, Chris mentions that most of 1.3's potential benefits lie in the future, with some of these its obviously a way in to the future, however in respect to the audio, its possible that having decoding in the amp of the bitstreams could prove useful if the PC/online industries realise the potential of media downloads for HQ AV and begin to do download centres for BR/HD-DVD quality media with the sound being in HD as well. If this happens, then the file would route the sound via the video cards HDMI output (latest gen ATi cards are already available to do this although i'm not 100% sure at this time what version HDMI they are) in to the amp to decode as the video card most likely wont be able to deal with the bitstream, simply act as a passthrough device. Whether this is something that would happen soon or not I dont know, but given how media PC's are starting to get some serious backing now I wouldnt mind betting there is a chance that a v1.3 amp could actually prove useful within as soon as a year. I might be wrong, I might be right. Its a point I feel is valid as more and more people now use PC's.

There aren't any PC graphics/audi HDMI cards available yet... that provide the HD audio. Current cards are just routing SPDIF over the HDMI lead and that doesn't have the bandwidth for bitstream files or decoded LPCM.
Give it a few hours from a manufacturer saying they might and I'll post in the HCPC section!

Further it's not a HCPC "thing", these download centres are planned to be accessed by the "appliance" players as well as PCs, by means of a network port in the back.

And to debunk further (sorry, not having a go) reading the Dolby and DTS specs suggests that they want the decoding to PCM of their compressed files, to be done in the player (more to the point Hollywood wants this and has coded all the BDs and HD-DVDs to only allow this) extra content will probaly be added to the decoded (uncompressed) audi tracks by the player, not our receivers/amps.

So an HDMI 1.3 amp, for audio at least, hasn't got an imminent or forseable use.

[Cyprio]

Originally Posted by Chris Moseley

Even so, you will find that manufacturers all start using HDMI v1.3 on their products to ensure the latest specs are adhered to but don't worry if your amp doesn't support it just yet! Your far better off worrying about features and quality of a product rather than the version of HDMI that it's using.

Hope this is of some help. Mods feel free to delete this if it's in violation of any rules.

Regards

Chris Moseley
Yamaha UK

Chris,
when will Yamaha be entering the v1.3 arena.

[Knyght_byte]

Originally Posted by NaTT

There aren't any PC graphics/audi HDMI cards available yet... that provide the HD audio. Current cards are just routing SPDIF over the HDMI lead and that doesn't have the bandwidth for bitstream files or decoded LPCM.
Give it a few hours from a manufacturer saying they might and I'll post in the HCPC section!

Further it's not a HCPC "thing", these download centres are planned to be accessed by the "appliance" players as well as PCs, by means of a network port in the back.

And to debunk further (sorry, not having a go) reading the Dolby and DTS specs suggests that they want the decoding to PCM of their compressed files, to be done in the player (more to the point Hollywood wants this and has coded all the BDs and HD-DVDs to only allow this) extra content will probaly be added to the decoded (uncompressed) audi tracks by the player, not our receivers/amps.

So an HDMI 1.3 amp, for audio at least, hasn't got an imminent or forseable use.

Graphics cards are released so rapidly nowadays it would be a matter of a months R&D and the same again for manufacturing to bring the outputs up to speed to pass through a HD audio signal....the technology is old, DVD-A (which is basically what HD-Audio is) has been around for ages now..

As for Hollywood/Dolby wanting it done in the appliance, thats really only applicable to optical disc based appliances......a streaming network device doesnt need to decode.....example being how many set top boxes, sky, cable or freeview do you know that have 6 channel outputs?.......its not worth putting decoders in to all those boxes if 2/3 of the population wont make use of them.....those people who want ppm/v HD quality audio are more than likely going to have an amp that can do the job instead.....yes currently they are spouting that they want it done in appliance, but how long before Murdoch and the other various patriachs figure it would be a waste of money building decoders in to their equipment when someone else can do it for them......whilst i dont see HD audio being streamed for a year, possible two, i also dont personally spend £600+ on something for it to be limited in a couple years time when for the sake of a few months waiting I know I wont have that worry.....

anyhow, the debate can go back and forth with each person reiterating their points, as Chris has put it, if you are mainly worried about using optical disc based media then you dont need HDMI v1.3......if you are worried about the future and dont want to buy another amp for 5yrs or so, then personally i'd say wait for the 1.3's to come out as they are not exactly far off now......mebbe i'll be wrong...but for spending that much money with only a month or two at most to go it'd be a shame to regret it later.