[whos mother]

I have had an av receiver for years now but just started enjoying stereo music again,the stereo mode on my receiver sounds good but for a small price could I get better through a dedicated stereo amp

How would I attach a stereo amp to an onkyo tx-sr806 so as I can play music through the stereo amp and my front speakers,and leave the speakers still connected to the receiver for when I watch films.Is this even possible?

I just dont have room for another dedicated set up

I know absolutely nothing about pre outs and things it will have to be explained simply

what kind of amp would be an improvement over the receiver,second hand because I like a bargain and age is irrelevant really as long as it sounds good

[PSM1]

Does your receiver have preouts?
If it does then you connect the front L/R preouts to an input on a stereo amp (preferably one with an AV or unity setting as it makes the use easier) and then you connect your front l/r speakers to the stereo amp. You could then either route all sources through the AV receiver or connect the stereo (music) only sources direct to the stereo amp. What front speakers do you have?
If it does not have preouts then you could buy a source select switch so you have both the AV reciever and stereo amp (front L/R) connected to the switch as well as the front L/R speakers. You then use the switch to select which amp you will be using with the fronts depending on your use.
The 806 is a reasonable receiver so you would have to pay a bit to get a lot better, even if looking at second hand. Something like an Arcam 350 would be an improvement in stereo quality but you will then be missing audio over HDMI and HD audio decoding.

[Mark.Yudkin]

Your TX-SR806 has 7.1 analogue preouts, so it's possible.

The easiest way to do this is to purchase a stereo amplifier having a home theatre mode / processor mode / unity gain (the names seem to vary by manufacturer). This allows you to connect the stereo pre-outs (the ones marked Front Left and Right) from the receiver to the home theatre mode / processor mode / unity gain input on the stereo amplifier. All you need to do then is adjust the levels using the test tones, following the instructions in the amplifiers and receiver's manual. There are lots of such stereo ampllifiers, but the feature is not universal. Check the online manual of any second hand model that takes your fancy to verify that it has the function.

As always, the better the amp, the greater the improvement. If buying new, I'd have said a budget of £500 would be about the point where you might start to hear improvements, but of course, when buying new you could probably arrange a loan on a "keep if better" basis.

[Dfour]

You dont have to buy a full stereo amp you could do what I do and just get a pre-amp like the little dac zero (about £120 on ebay) and jsut hook it to your analogue preouts. The zero destroys my onkyo in stereo.

Old review of Zero

Your music player (cd/dvd/pc/mac) will need a digital output for zero to work.

[whos mother]

Originally Posted by Dfour

You dont have to buy a full stereo amp you could do what I do and just get a pre-amp like the little dac zero (about £120 on ebay) and jsut hook it to your analogue preouts. The zero destroys my onkyo in stereo.

Old review of Zero

Your music player (cd/dvd/pc/mac) will need a digital output for zero to work.

how would things be controlled then?

I honestly dont understand this,say I hook a cd player up to this pre amp,would the speakers still be attatched to my onkyo? and the sound from this goes through my receiver

[dante01]

Originally Posted by Dfour

You dont have to buy a full stereo amp you could do what I do and just get a pre-amp like the little dac zero (about £120 on ebay) and jsut hook it to your analogue preouts. The zero destroys my onkyo in stereo.

Old review of Zero

Your music player (cd/dvd/pc/mac) will need a digital output for zero to work.

A pre amp iss used prior to amplification so how would the op then power his speakers and why would a pre amp be of any use to him? Are you confusing a pre amp with an external power amp?

You could look into connecting an external power amp to your receivers pre outs and use this to power your front two speakers. The power amp would be a slave amp. Your receiver would be a pre amp as far as the front two channels are concerned. Look at Rotel, Audiolab or Marantz if wanting good quality audio power amps.

[whos mother]

Originally Posted by dante01

A pre amp iss used prior to amplification so how would the op then power his speakers and why would a pre amp be of any use to him? Are you confusing a pre amp with an external power amp?

You could look into connecting an external power amp to your receivers pre outs and use this to power your front two speakers. The power amp would be a slave amp. Your receiver would be a pre amp as far as the front two channels are concerned. Look at Rotel, Audiolab or Marantz if wanting good quality audio power amps.

That was my thinking surely to get better sound my onkyo has to be the pre amp( in my mind that is just sending the signal) and then a "better" amp drives the speakers.


@ dante if this other amp drives my front speakers for stereo,how would I watch a film in dolby or something,would the front 2 channels even watching a film always go through the new amp and the others as normal to my centre and surrounds

would the other amp always be in place between my receiver and the fronts and so the onkyo dosent drive the fronts at all regardless of what I play?

something like this kind of thing?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rotel-RB-9...7#ht_889wt_885

[dante01]

Originally Posted by whos mother

That was my thinking surely to get better sound my onkyo has to be the pre amp( in my mind that is just sending the signal) and then a "better" amp drives the speakers.


@ dante if this other amp drives my front speakers for stereo,how would I watch a film in dolby or something,would the front 2 channels even watching a film always go through the new amp and the others as normal to my centre and surrounds

would the other amp always be in place between my receiver and the fronts?

The power amp would still be powering your fron stereo pair even when listening to multichannel audio. The other remaining channels would be powered by the receiver's own onboard amplification stages. A dedicated power amp has no volume, source or other such controls anf your receiver is used for such adjustments.

Here's a few examples:
Home Theater System Surround Sound Amplifier DVD Player - Rotel PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS

8200P - Audiolab

STEREO AMPLIFIER

[whos mother]

Thanks.

would such an amp give far better stereo sound and also improve the surround set up,given thats its decent enough to be better than the onkyo initially of course

what kind of price second hand would be suitable for an amp to improve the set up? I havent bought a stereo amp for years im a bit out of the loop

[Dfour]

Originally Posted by whos mother

how would things be controlled then?

I honestly dont understand this,say I hook a cd player up to this pre amp,would the speakers still be attatched to my onkyo? and the sound from this goes through my receiver

The pre amp controls the volume. yes and yes.

Originally Posted by dante01

A pre amp iss used prior to amplification so how would the op then power his speakers and why would a pre amp be of any use to him? Are you confusing a pre amp with an external power amp?

I know exactly what a pre amp and a power amp are as I own own all of the above.

Basically you use the pre amp and the onkyo is then just used as a power amp when in stereo mode.
The only difference to your setup would be that at cd is plugged into the preamp and then the preamp is then plugged in to your onkyo's multi channel inputs. All your speakers an everything else is left as it is now.

To play music you turn on the onkyo and the pre amp and turn it to the multi in channel that I assume you can assign it to (I use tv/tape) and the music will only play out of the main speakers and no other.

When you want to watch a multi channel you use the amp as normal with the pre amp off. This is how I use the zero dac I linked to as a pre amp to my onkyo 1009 for music.

Any questiond feel free to ask

[dante01]

Originally Posted by Dfour

Basically you use the pre amp and the onkyo is then just used as a power amp when in stereo mode.
The only difference to your setup would be that at cd is plugged into the preamp and then the preamp is then plugged in to your onkyo's multi channel inputs. All your speakers an everything else is left as it is now.

To play music you turn on the onkyo and the pre amp and turn it to the multi in channel that I assume you can assign it to (I use tv/tape) and the music will only play out of the main speakers and no other.

So how would this be an improvement if using the Onkyo's compromised amplification? The idea is to use better amplification with cleaner power to the the stereo pair. Connecting a pre amp to the receiver is more likely to just add signal distortion. You'd be first passing the audio through the pre amp, then the receivers own pre amp stage and then the receivers amplification stage. You've not improved upon anything, you've added additional circuitry and potential source of distortion. Adding a power amp replaces the receivers own amplification stages with better external ones.

The problem is that the receiver's amplification stages are compromised and this is the main reason why it suffers in termss of stereo music.

[dante01]

Originally Posted by whos mother

Thanks.

would such an amp give far better stereo sound and also improve the surround set up,given thats its decent enough to be better than the onkyo initially of course

what kind of price second hand would be suitable for an amp to improve the set up? I havent bought a stereo amp for years im a bit out of the loop

It isn't perfect because your audio source still has to passthrough the receiver, but those external power amps have far lower THD (distortion) than the Onkyo's onboard amplification. It is the nearest you'll get to playing audio directly through those power amps' comparable integrated models and still only needing one set of speakers, additional speaker switches or having to fiddle about trying to use an integrated amp as a pre amp in conjunction with your receiver. The power amps will also be cheaper than buying the comparable integrated stereo amp. You don't need the inputs, volume dial etc so may as well just use a power amp

Those three amps cost £500 - 700 new, but you can buy for less if looking at used power amps.

[whos mother]

Originally Posted by dante01

It isn't perfect because your audio source still has to passthrough the receiver, but those external power amps have far lower THD (distortion) than the Onkyo's onboard amplification. It is the nearest you'll get to playing audio directly through those power amps's integrated bigger brother and still only needing one set of speakers. The power amps will also be cheaper than buying the comparable integrated stereo amp. You don't need the inputs, volume dial etc so may as well just use a power amp

you have summed it all up very well mate,thanks

Till you mentioned power amps with no controlsI just couldnt understand how it would work with two volume buttons,what would be connected where,where i would connect the speakers and so on

so let me get this straight in this scenario the power amp is simply replacing onkyos amp for those 2 out of the 7 channels in every situation

[dante01]

Originally Posted by whos mother

you have summed it all up very well mate,thanks

Till you mentioned power amps with no controlsI just couldnt understand how it would work with two volume buttons,what would be connected where,where i would connect the speakers and so on

so let me get this straight in this scenario the power amp is simply replacing onkyos amp for those 2 out of the 7 channels in every situation

People do this, but usually because they already have a decent integrated amp they'd like to utilise and keep. It is complicated because you must balance an integrated amplifier's volume with that of the receiver's. You must never use the integrate's own volume while it is being used as a power amp and it has to remain set to the volume you calibrated it to. There is a risk of damaging your speakers if you forget to turn the integrate's volume back to the level it was set to in conjunction with the receiver's output. A power amp is designed to do the task we are discussing so no fiddling about with the volume dial or danger of accidentally blowing your speakers



The Onkyo would be a pre amp for the power amp in relation to the front stereo pair. Its own front amplification would no longer be used.

[whos mother]

Originally Posted by dante01

The Onkyo would be a pre amp for the power amp in relation to the front stereo pair. Its own front amplification would no longer be used.

so you could you go a stage further and get a 7 channel power amp,in which case would a decentish av receiver be improved or would it be too costly?

[dante01]

Originally Posted by whos mother

so you could you go a stage further and get a 7 channel power amp,in which case would a decentish av receiver be improved or would it be too costly?

You can get 7 channel power amps or you can add additional 2 channel and a mono power amp. I suppose you can do it in stages and eventually even replace the integrated AV receiver with a dedicated AV pre amp/processor?

It is costly and only worth pursuing if your eventual intent is to go the whole hog and have a pre/processor + power amp setup? This is serious home cinema territory.

Most AV amps perform reasonably well with multichannel movie audio so you're not going to get as much joy out of using external amplification for all the channels as you are for just the front pair. An AV receiver's down side is its poormusical performance and the external amp helps in regards to this.

[Dfour]

Originally Posted by dante01

So how would this be an improvement if using the Onkyo's compromised amplification? The idea is to use better amplification with cleaner power to the the stereo pair. Connecting a pre amp to the receiver is more likely to just add signal distortion. You'd be first passing the audio through the pre amp, then the receivers own pre amp stage and then the receivers amplification stage. You've not improved upon anything, you've added additional circuitry and potential source of distortion. Adding a power amp replaces the receivers own amplification stages with better external ones.

The problem is that the receiver's amplification stages are compromised and this is the main reason why it suffers in termss of stereo music.

You dont understand . The external preamp bypasses the inferior onkyos preamp when connected to the multi-channel analogue inputs while using the good power amps built into the onkyo.

[Dfour]

All this talk of replacing the onkyo's power amps with an external power amp to inprove the stereo ability is not totally correct (trust me I know as I bi-amp my speakers with a seperate rotel power amp)as your not actually fixing the original floor in this stereo equation:- the onkyo's poorer pre amp and DAC section.
The best way to get around that is to use a seperate dac or preamp (also no messing with setting volumes or risk of blowing speakers)that then bypasses the onboard dac section and uses the onkyos power amp that then can also be enhanced/replaced by an aditional power amp if need be.

I dont suppose you live anywhere near me as I could then demo all this and you would then would know know I know what im talking about here.

[dante01]

Originally Posted by Dfour

The external preamp bypasses the inferior onkyos preamp when connected to the multi-channel analogue inputs

No they don't.

[Dfour]

Originally Posted by dante01

No they don't.

Thats bizzare because mine does exactly that.

[scottthehat]

i have seen on some sites that alot of amp when using the 6/8 channel inputs does bypass the amps dacs and will use the inputs own ie blu ray or cd player internall dac, as it does with the normal analoge inputs hence why alot of people still connect there cd via analoge not optical else the amp will have to convert it back to anologe.

[dante01]

Originally Posted by scottthehat

i have seen on some sites that alot of amp when using the 6/8 channel inputs does bypass the amps dacs and will use the inputs own ie blu ray or cd player internall dac, as it does with the normal analoge inputs hence why alot of people still connect there cd via analoge not optical else the amp will have to convert it back to anologe.

A DAC and pre amplification stage are two entirely different things. None of the analogue inputs on an AV amp would utilise the amps onboard DAC and it isn't only the multichannel inputs that don't use it. Digital to Analogue Conversion isn't required for analogue sources.

Employing an external DAC in relation to stereo audio sources is something different to what the OP wanted to discuss and a different topic.

[scottthehat]

Yamaha audio video receivers are equipped with 6 additional input jacks (left and right FRONT, CENTER, left and right SURROUND and SUBWOOFER) for discrete multi-channel input from a multi-format player, external decoder, sound processor or preamplifier. Yamaha audio video receivers that are 7.1 channels also have the option of inputting an 8 channel discrete input. You would set “INPUT CH” to “8ch” in “MULTI CH SET” option in the receivers’ manual setup. There you can use the input jacks assigned as “FRONT” in “MULTI CH SET” together with the MULTI CH INPUT jacks to input 8-channel signals. NOTE: • When you select the component connected to the MULTI CH INPUT jacks as the input source the receiver automatically turns off the digital sound field processor, and you cannot select sound field programs. • This unit does not redirect signals input at the MULTI CH INPUT jacks to accommodate for missing speakers. We recommend that you connect at least a 5.1-channel speaker system before ...

[dante01]

And?


Okay, lets now suggest to the OP that he spends his money on a pre amp to use in conjunction with the Onkyo's onboard amplifiers, amplifiers that are already compromised because of their inferior shared power supply and close proximity to other electrical components

As to :

Thats bizzare because mine does exactly that.

and I supose you are taking into account the use of the DAC within the "ZERO 24 BIT/192KHz DAC/Headphone Amp/Pre-Amp"? This will obviously result in something other than what resulted from utilising the amps own onboard DAC or those within the digital audio source, but doesn't mean a pre amp is improving the audio or the analogue amplification of such. You could get the same results via an external DAC between digital stereo sources and the amp without any need for a pre amp. As I said, this is an entirely different topic. It could be done as well as adding a power amp or amps and without any need for a pre amp.

[Dfour]

Fine I will leave you to it as I have more interesting things to do that keep up this merry go round with you dante.

Dfour out

[dante01]

Originally Posted by Dfour

Fine I will leave you to it as I have more interesting things to do that keep up this merry go round with you dante.

Dfour out

So did you take into account the DAC or not?



As for

Originally Posted by scottthehat

automatically turns off the digital sound field processor,

Why would I need a pre amp to do this on a Yamaha amp when I can just put the amp in Pure Direct mode? I believe Yamaha not to be alone in this and other manufacturers also include such modes on their amps too.

A pre amp is limited in that only sources passing through it will benefit (if there is any benefit?). The addition of a power amp or several power amps if beneficial to all sources. I'm still of the opinion that it is the DAC within the pre amp mentioned that is affecting the SQ and not the concept of using a pre amp.