[afcjay]

Im new to the warm/neutral and bright effects from receivers and speakers and how they should be matched as opposites etc

Please can someone post a link to the different brands of receivers and speakers and wether they come under the warm,neutral or bright classification

Im sure this would help many others when buying new speakers or receivers also

I currently have a Tannoy speaker setup (F1s and F4s) and am looking to replace my Sony receiver (which is ment to be a good match so ive read) but what others will work well with the Tannoys (and what are the Tannoys classed as w,n or bright?)

I like the look of the Denon and Yamaha receivers but have a feeling they will not match my Tannoys,can anyone confirm this and if so apart from Sony and Onkyo what other choices are there for my Tannoys as i really dont want to be having to sell them tbh

Thanks in advance

[afcjay]

Also if i was better off going for either Sony or Onkyo to match my speakers what do people think of the Sony STR DH800

Would the Yamaha RXV 456 match being Neutral or am i resticted to Sony and Onkyo

Id love a Denon tbh but think this would be a mis match?

Whats my best option on a £300 budget mainly used for music but also a few films blu ray and dvd and the xbox 360 gaming

[swiftpete]

My advice is don't worry about it too much. I've tried both 'bright' and 'warm' receivers and both sounded good. There is certainly no reason to sell your speakers on that basis and you're not restricted to certain brands of receiver. Honestly I've tried several and all of them sounded good and I doubt very much that even with a blind test you could tell which was the 'bright' and which was the 'warm'. They were not massively expensive receivers, but still ranged between £500-£800 so they weren't the cheapest either.
I'm currently running denon with wharfedale which would make some internet buffs throw up their hands in horror, but it sounds very good. So if you like the denon then go for it.

[safcalibur]

Is it possible for you to get a demo? I wouldnt get too hung up on this. If you can listen to a demo then you'll hear for yourself. Onkyos and sonys are considered bright, yamaha ans denon are warm. Tannoys are considered warm so pairing with the sony/onkyo will give you a more neutral sound. It really depends on what kind of sound you like, some people prefer bright and would pair a bright amp with bright speakers and some people vice versa.

Demoing would be the way to go

Cheers

Saf

[Alan Mac]

I have never seen any objective evidence whatsoever to support the rather strange belief that some amplifiers are “bright” sounding and some are “warm” sounding etc.

Loudspeakers yes, they all tend to sound different and measure different.

But amplifiers, speaker cables, interconnect cables... They are all neutral for practical audio purposes.

I don’t think you will glean any useful information in this regard from the typical “demo”. If the demonstration were to take the form of a genuine double-blind testing session, then yes. But not a lot of “demonstrations” do that !!



Alan

[Alan Mac]

Originally Posted by safcalibur

Onkyos and sonys are considered bright, yamaha ans denon are warm.

Saf

Where does this information come from?

Who decides?

On what evidence do they base their decision?



Alan

[afcjay]

so would i be right in saying its just another myth in the AV world?

To be honest im running a Sony receiver at the moment with Tannoy F4s and F1s and find it very harsh in my ears anyway so maybe a Denon would work well for myself?

Tbh i prefer a warm detailed sound,but i suppose what i think is a warm detailed sound nobody else will lol.

Is anyone running a Denon or Yamaha with a Tannoy setup? I think i need a demo lol


Thanks for all the replys also,im learning fast lol

[safcalibur]

Originally Posted by Alan Mac

Where does this information come from?

Personal experience and reading up on this subject on various AV threads. You only need to do a google search to see posts and articles relating to this topic. There are posts/threads on where people have put different manufactures in bright/warm/neutral category and there is a general consensus on who falls into what category. Having owned most amps, to me there is a difference and it was only when i couldnt quite put my finger on why I was hearing a different sound with one amp than another I decided to do some research and realised that this could be the reason. I've had or heard many different amps and to me, and many others, there is a difference in SQ between different amps which can be attributed to the sound being warm or bright.

Originally Posted by Alan Mac

Who decides?

You do. If you hear a sound with emphasis on the treble/higher frequencies then that is considered bright whereas if you hear a sound with emphasis on mid/low frequencies and bass, that would constitute as warm. Each and every one of us precieves sound differently, its like colour, we all see colour differently, its subjective. But just because you might not see the same colour as I do it does not make either of us right or wrong, its our individual perception.

Originally Posted by Alan Mac

On what evidence do they base their decision?

Again, their own experience. You cannot measure this objectively as you rightly said, its about your own perception of sound. What may sound shrill/harsh to me may be perfectly fine for you. Just because this is something you personally cannot hear does not mean it doesnt exist, again back to my colour analogy. In fact all our senses are individual and unique to us. Yes there are similarities but there are also differences. Sight, smell, touch, sound and taste are all unique to us and differences can hard to quantify.

There are other things like this in the world of AV. Take HDMI jitter for example, people argue from both sides of the fence about this yet there is no consesus. You can debate about these things forever, simple answer is there is no answer, you listen and decide for yourself. Just as I cannot present cold hard facts that bright/warm exists, you would also be hard pushed to present evidence that it doesnt exist. Its opinion, life is not always about cold facts and evidence.

As i stated in my post for the OP to not get hung up on this, if they find a sound that is to their liking then that is all that matters. I was presenting my opnion to their original question.



Saf

[bobbymax]

Originally Posted by safcalibur

Personal experience and reading up on this subject on various AV threads. You only need to do a google search to see posts and articles relating to this topic. There are posts/threads on where people have put different manufactures in bright/warm/neutral category and there is a general consensus on who falls into what category. Having owned most amps, to me there is a difference and it was only when i couldnt quite put my finger on why I was hearing a different sound with one amp than another I decided to do some research and realised that this could be the reason. I've had or heard many different amps and to me, and many others, there is a difference in SQ between different amps which can be attributed to the sound being warm or bright.



You do. If you hear a sound with emphasis on the treble/higher frequencies then that is considered bright whereas if you hear a sound with emphasis on mid/low frequencies and bass, that would constitute as warm. Each and every one of us precieves sound differently, its like colour, we all see colour differently, its subjective. But just because you might not see the same colour as I do it does not make either of us right or wrong, its our individual perception.


Again, their own experience. You cannot measure this objectively as you rightly said, its about your own perception of sound. What may sound shrill/harsh to me may be perfectly fine for you. Just because this is something you personally cannot hear does not mean it doesnt exist, again back to my colour analogy. In fact all our senses are individual and unique to us. Yes there are similarities but there are also differences. Sight, smell, touch, sound and taste are all unique to us and differences can hard to quantify.

There are other things like this in the world of AV. Take HDMI jitter for example, people argue from both sides of the fence about this yet there is no consesus. You can debate about these things forever, simple answer is there is no answer, you listen and decide for yourself. Just as I cannot present cold hard facts that bright/warm exists, you would also be hard pushed to present evidence that it doesnt exist. Its opinion, life is not always about cold facts and evidence.

As i stated in my post for the OP to not get hung up on this, if they find a sound that is to their liking then that is all that matters. I was presenting my opnion to their original question.



Saf

Good post

[Alan Mac]

Originally Posted by safcalibur

If you hear a sound with emphasis on the treble/higher frequencies then that is considered bright whereas if you hear a sound with emphasis on mid/low frequencies and bass, that would constitute as warm. Each and every one of us precieves sound differently...

Saf

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. A well set out post is always appreciated even if I have to disagree with your reasoning!


I agree that we all hear sound differently but that is not relevant to the question of whether (say) a Sony amplifier will sound different to a Denon amplifier.

We know from objective measurements that both amplifiers are able to provide the same electrical drive signals to the loudspeaker, to within very close tolerances.

That being the case, if we think we hear a difference we must be mistaken. The fact that no-one can distinguish between such amplifiers in a proper double-blind subjective test is corroborating evidence that there is no actual significant difference between them.

The logical conclusion has to be that the usual “believe your own ears” advice is fatally flawed. We cannot rely on our senses to “tell the truth” - they are too easily fooled.


Alan

[gbjbaanb]

I can't answer for amplifiers, but I remember auditioning a marantz and an arcam cd player years ago, the difference between them was dramatic. (arecam was 'clinical', the marantz 'warm'). So given that they should both be reproducing the same sound patterns from the CD, you've got to admit that some devices do a different job than others. I can't see why amps should be any different.

The only advice anyone can give you is to go audition them yourself - pop into RS and ask to listen to a warm and a bright amp, a Sony v Denon for example and see what you think. Try to do it on a slow day and they'll be more than happy to set it up for you, often with the same speakers.

[Alan Mac]

Originally Posted by gbjbaanb

I
The only advice anyone can give you is to go audition them yourself - pop into RS and ask to listen to a warm and a bright amp, a Sony v Denon for example and see what you think.

You have totally ignored the key point, which is that it is simply not possible to arrive at an accurate assessment by auditioning in this way. The “differences” we may think we “hear” are an “illusion” insofar as they do not relate to the physical equipment producing the sound.

If there were significant differences between the sound from amplifiers, CD players, speaker cables, analogue interconnect cables, HDMI cables......
then these differences would be detectable in double-blind subjective tests.
No such differences, not even small differences, have ever been detected in double-blind tests. This is the only scientifically credible method of subjective testing (it is used in many other disciplines, including medical).

You have also not explained away how the “sound” could possibly differ when the loudspeakers are being driven by near-identical waveforms from the two amplifiers. It does not make sense.


Alan

[Sluggster]

I have not really noticed as big differences in the type of sound you hear from one AV system to another, in terms of warm and bright etc, where the systems are of a similar level. However manufacturers do seem to have 'house' sounds.

The fact that room set up systems built in to modern AV amps can do wonders with problematic rooms and get the best out of your amp and speakers really does, if used correctly, tune out most problems.

Where you can notice significant difference is when you put a CD player through an AV amp or pre-amp and then use something like PQLS or Direct mode to take out the video or processor circuits and cut down jitter.

Using a AV888/P777 recently at home gave a different (one I did not really like) sound using my Naim CD to the sound I get from my Naim stereo amp, which I find warmer and more musical. I have tried Cyrus CD players in the past and found that I got a headache after about 20 minutes listening to them.

I would consider Marantz and Meridian CD players to give a warm sound too - or at least the ones I owned. I quite liked a Sony CD player I tried about 15 years ago and it had a fabulous sound stage. I would not have called it bright but slightly less warm than the other two.

The bottom line is that you need to listen to a system in your home to see if it suits you and the room you have it in. The wrong speakers too close to the back wall will probably cause you more problems than the amp you choose.

Since you listen to music (CDs?) a lot I would suggest you focus on that aspect of the AV Amp you want first.

Regards,
S

[afcjay]

Id like to thank people for their replys to this thread.
Its turning into a great intresting read with the different opions people have

As for getting a demo at RS would they have a Tannoys setup (im not sure?) if they didnt,what speaker package would be a simular match to F4s and F1s? (could this start another debate lol)

Also if they went to the trouble to give you a demo would they want to make a desision and part with your money on the spot for their trouble or would it be fine to take a couple of days to make your mind up unless that was anything really stood out to you?

[Sluggster]

I have a good dealer and I buy most of my equipment from them. Sometimes I demo stuff and don't buy it - AV888/P777 being a case in point. If you build up a rapport with your dealer they will help you to choose the best system to suit your needs. Just don't use them for a demo and buy the equipment over the Internet afterwards!

To be honest, saving a few quid over the Internet can often be a false economy as you lose the personal touch and advice that will help you get the best system on your budget.

Regards,
S

[afcjay]

Ill be buying from RS anyway but if i could get a demo of a few different amps it would help agreat deal i think.Maybe ill give them a call

[Alan Mac]

Originally Posted by afcjay

so would i be right in saying its just another myth in the AV world?

Yes, you would be right if you said that.

Of course it’s up to you who you believe - the subjectivists or the scientists / engineers.


Alan

[bishopsfinger]

Originally Posted by afcjay

Also if i was better off going for either Sony or Onkyo to match my speakers what do people think of the Sony STR DH800

Would the Yamaha RXV 456 match being Neutral or am i resticted to Sony and Onkyo

Id love a Denon tbh but think this would be a mis match?

Whats my best option on a £300 budget mainly used for music but also a few films blu ray and dvd and the xbox 360 gaming

Hi afcjay

If you mainly play music I strongly suggest you consider buying a Stereo Amp.

Why not post in the Hi Fi section and ask for recommendations up to £300.

[safcalibur]

Originally Posted by Alan Mac

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. A well set out post is always appreciated even if I have to disagree with your reasoning!


I agree that we all hear sound differently but that is not relevant to the question of whether (say) a Sony amplifier will sound different to a Denon amplifier.

We know from objective measurements that both amplifiers are able to provide the same electrical drive signals to the loudspeaker, to within very close tolerances.

That being the case, if we think we hear a difference we must be mistaken. The fact that no-one can distinguish between such amplifiers in a proper double-blind subjective test is corroborating evidence that there is no actual significant difference between them.

The logical conclusion has to be that the usual “believe your own ears” advice is fatally flawed. We cannot rely on our senses to “tell the truth” - they are too easily fooled.


Alan

Thanks for replying and continuing this interesting discussion however I think its going to be one of those 'lets agree to disagree' situations. I completely take what you're saying on board but just dont agree with it. If it was simply down to electrical signals and 'mechanics' for want of a better word, then every amp out on the market would be a clone of eacchother. Why would we have different manufacturers when they would all be essentially making the same product with no difference. Regardless of tests etc... I simply cannot ignore my own ears and what sounds good to me, no matter if that logic is 'fatally flawed' as you put it, which i dont agree with anyway as if you cant believe your own ears what can you believe. I'm definately not going to buy a speaker/amp just because 'on paper' or 'techncally' it should sound good, i'd rather listen to it myself and decide.

As i say, i am going by personal experience and i'm not alone in this. I have previously owned an onkyo, sony and yamaha whilst having the same speaker set for each amp change. Everything else remained constant in my set up, room, speakers, placement etc... the only thing that changed was the amp. Before even knowing about bright/warm/neutral etc...(simpler times!!) I still noticed a difference between my amps. Now i acknowledge that there could have been many reasons for this i.e i may not have set the amps up properly but i noticed this defference nonethless. It wasnt until I did a bit of research that i uncovered this very controversial idea.

I appreciate that when people say 'personal experience' its very hard to argue, its like religion or spirituality, if someone has been though a religious/spiritual experience then convincing them otherwise is an impossible task regardless of the amount of objective/scientific evidence you throw at them.

We are both coming at this from two very different angles and I dont think either of us will convince the other to convert. Thats no problem, life is about our little differences and accepting them. I'm not trying to convince anyone that bright/warm etc... exists. All I am saying is that there are many many people who agree with this and the best thing to do is go and demo (which by your earlier statement would be a waste of time as our ears are easily fooled!). I can absolutely rely on my ears to me the truth, the truth for me that is. At the end of the day it will be my ears that are listening to the sound and my brain intepreting it, not a bunch of sound measuring equipment.

Apologies if I came across as abrupt.

All the best

Saf

PS: My apologies to the OP as we have gone off track, i'll try and keep this as my last post on this matter.

[AdrianMills]

Originally Posted by Alan Mac

Yes, you would be right if you said that.

Of course it’s up to you who you believe - the subjectivists or the scientists / engineers.


Alan

Nice try Alan but alas, you can lead a horse to water but...

The problem has always been that people have a hard time accepting that their senses can lie to them.

[Alan Mac]

Originally Posted by AdrianMills

The problem has always been that people have a hard time accepting that their senses can lie to them.

The acknowledgement of the fallibility of the human senses (in this case of hearing) is indeed key to an acceptance of the logically very reasonable assertion that (for example) all amplifiers which measure similarly must sound the same.

(incidentally, that need not mean that all amplifiers are clones of each other. They may be differentiated by such things as build quality, maximum power output capability, appearance, input connections, control facilities, energy efficiency.........)


Here is yet more evidence to corroborate the claim that all properly engineered amplifiers sound the same regardless of price or manufacturer.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments


Alan

[AdrianMills]

Originally Posted by Alan Mac

The acknowledgement of the fallibility of the human senses (in this case of hearing) is indeed key to an acceptance of the logically very reasonable assertion that (for example) all amplifiers which measure similarly must sound the same.

(incidentally, that need not mean that all amplifiers are clones of each other. They may be differentiated by such things as build quality, maximum power output capability, appearance, input connections, control facilities, energy efficiency.........)


Here is yet more evidence to corroborate the claim that all properly engineered amplifiers sound the same regardless of price or manufacturer.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments


Alan

Oh yes, the Spanish test. But, having tried and failed so many times to convince subjectivists of the error of their ways I've come to think that it is quite pointless, at least in the majority of cases anyway. Strangely, it seems to have little to do with stupidity or ignorance either; all you have to do is check out some of the very high end threads over on the American AVS forum to see that some people, quite intelligent people at that, will always find rational sounding (at least to them) excuses to justify their faith no matter how much proof, DB or not, is presented to them. Some have even participated in DBT, seemingly accepting the results at first, only to recant some hours later once the cognitive dissonance kicks in.

It takes all sorts I suppose.

[Mini Clump]

Hi all,
Great thread i am only speaking from experiance not from fact or anything intelligent like you guys have already said but for 10+ years i`ve listerned to music -2 channel and have changed my speakers cd players and amps a fair few times i`ve bought most of the stuff 2nd hand normally a couple of years old and its been all across the price range and ive found that changing the amp has always made the LEAST difference, again dont shoot me down thats just what ive found

[William YZF-R1]

and now the idiots have taken over this section of the Forum, Saf you have my apology.

Amps and Receivers play a role as IMHO they are not transparent they add their house flavour courteousy of their designers. I agree if they all just lierally amplified they would all sound the same but I don't believe they do.

[gds]

Originally Posted by Mini Clump

Hi all,
Great thread i am only speaking from experiance not from fact or anything intelligent like you guys have already said but for 10+ years i`ve listerned to music -2 channel and have changed my speakers cd players and amps a fair few times i`ve bought most of the stuff 2nd hand normally a couple of years old and its been all across the price range and ive found that changing the amp has always made the LEAST difference, again dont shoot me down thats just what ive found

Me too,i Agree,
Ever since the arrival of DVD and DD capable amps i have found that Tonally the Amp has had a marginal effect,only occasions i could have noticed a change in tone(warm,bright ect) was when i upgraded both amp and source together,but For me the AV Amps that i have tried and purchased mainly varied in detail levels and dynamic range. Source component seems to make the biggest difference tonally,delivering a more lower-mid bass presentation(warm sound) or at the other extreme a more upper mid-treble presentation(Bright),Obviously these are the polar extremes of comparison,but my unqualified buying advice would be match the source and speakers then get the most detailed and powerful amp that fits your budget to a degree, For exampleTake my current set up, Pioneer lx81 av amp,Pioneer 51fd blu ray ,Arcam DV79 DVD and B&W CM series Speakers, Most would say the Pioneer kit is too "Bright" for B&W's, and to some extent i would agree,ignoring the detail enhancements from HD sound for a mo,when watching/listening to the Blu Ray player at Average/higher Volume levels it is a bit light in mid range weight and trebley(if thats a word)However thats not the Amp or speakers fault, that lies with the limitations of the lower end BD Player,switch to the Arcam and the combo sings,more bass weight,defined punchy Midrange and sweeter Treble(i think that sounds like most people's definition of "warm").
Now Change the Arcam for the Top of the Line BD from Pioneer, the LX91, and all of the sound traits from the 81/51 pairing vanish,bringing it more inline with the Pioneer/Arcam combo,(sidetracking for a mo....imo nearly as appealing but certainly no better considering the extra £ outlay,hence the lack of purchase...yet)
So my summary for Better pairing of a so called "bright" Pioneer/Pioneer/B&W combination would be very source dependant,cheaper source = brighter,expensive = at average vol warmer and at higher vol i would move towards Neutral,but that is showing the Amp limitations,drop 5k on a susano and neutral will turn to warm.

I'm sure i could have made my point much easier, but hey...it was fun typing

flame away

[safcalibur]

Originally Posted by William YZF-R1

Amps and Receivers play a role as IMHO they are not transparent they add their house flavour courteousy of their designers. I agree if they all just lierally amplified they would all sound the same but I don't believe they do.

Agreed....Strongly!

[Bibby_83]

Hi,

Originally Posted by afcjay

so would i be right in saying its just another myth in the AV world?


Yes, you would be right if you said that.

Of course it’s up to you who you believe - the subjectivists or the scientists / engineers.


Alan

What exactly do you think though - is there no difference, or is it simply not perceptible? I'm quite sure there is and AV Amps have a very different sound to most of the Hifi I have heard, which is why people are so interested in this subject in the first place. I really don't follow this argument in so far as it leads to us rejecting one sort of information in favour of another. You could take a combined quantitative/qualitative approach, as most magazine reviews have done. I would argue that most of us would be better off taking both methods into our decision. If you personally believe there is no benefit in listening whatsoever then you would not agree, but I also think you would be ignoring reasonable evidence for no good reason.

Do engineers include Ken Ishiwata, who designed equipment for Marantz and Pioneer? He argues that sound quality cannot be quantitively measured. What about the sound engineers who regularly use such terms and phrases? Or the musicians who actually know what a flat note sounds like and how to add reverb (not distortion)? You seem to be making a number of assumptions here, for one thing I doubt anyone would describe blind testing as reliable, let alone scientific. It isn't widely used in industry outside of market research and I don't think it makes anyone rational enough to judge whether what they are hearing meets their expectations.

But having said that, how are you supposed to know what Hifi sound is if you don't listen to it? If I looked at the spec sheet I would think that MP3 is equal to CD, but it isn't. I would go so far as to say that FM Radio is better quality because in spite of the limited response and background noise I can actually hear more of the music, which I think is a major difference. Perhaps the differences are not always that great, but surely you see my point?

[dwhite]

Originally Posted by William YZF-R1

and now the idiots have taken over this section of the Forum

This was a really good debate with people make good cases on both sides without resorting to Ad hominem arguments such as the above.

Please keep to the topic and do not insult other members because you disagree with them, put an argument forward as to why you disagree rather than childish name calling.

Any further transgressions like the above will result in more infractions and the thread being closed.

[Alan Mac]

William YZF-R1 writes:
“Amps and Receivers play a role as IMHO they are not transparent they add their house flavour courteousy of their designers. I agree if they all just lierally amplified they would all sound the same but I don't believe they do.”

In what way do the designers add their house flavour?
How do I go about measuring this “flavour”. Remember the loudspeakers are being driven by electrical signals so any “flavour” ought to be detectable in these signals.



Bibby 83 writes:
“What exactly do you think though - is there no difference, or is it simply not perceptible?”

Yes there is a measurable difference between amplifiers but it is normally small enough to be imperceptible in even the most stringent listening tests.

It is assumed that we are talking about amplifiers which are not overdriven or unstable or deliberately designed to produce non-linear distortion or frequency response errors.

Bibby 83 also writes”
“for one thing I doubt anyone would describe blind testing as reliable, let alone scientific. It isn't widely used in industry outside of market research and I don't think it makes anyone rational enough to judge whether what they are hearing meets their expectations”

Double blind testing is widely used in scientific research. What alternative are you proposing to use for subjective testing?


Alan

[Alan Mac]

Originally Posted by Bibby_83

I doubt anyone would describe blind testing as reliable, let alone scientific. It isn't widely used in industry outside of market research....

That really is an extraordinary assertion.

Just in case anyone should be inclined to believe it, they should check up on the actual facts regarding double blind testing (DBT).

For some examples of DBT in Science, have a look at Wikipedia:

Blind experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


These include medicine, in the trials of new drugs and nuclear physics and particle physics.


Alan