[henrik-t]

Hi All.. Should i Buy a Power Amp for my Onkyo 905.... or is it a total wast of ££´s...

I have just got the XTZ 99.36 floor models, and im thinking of buying a power amp to conect to the fronts for better Musik exp, i know the cinema exp is quite good and i do not feel like i lack power, but is this upgrade whortwile effort and is the ££ spent wisely...??

Cause im reading and reading in thise forums, and im never satisedfied, yes i like my setup but im wondering if this is the new way to go, lol im upgrade Sick i know, prob like some of you guy´s

And i have never had a pre+power combo before

Then i could in time sell my 905 and buy a prosseser unit, but im splitted down the middel, if it a go or a no no...!

In thise finance time i could get a bargin on the clasifeides or a demo unit...

What should i look for in terms of Amps brands, and how much power do i need to beat the 905 ( i know its not only the power ), and to keep me happy when i do get a pre quality unit... we just need new model comming out then there s a barging there too i know, i don t care about scaling if the units have though im more than happy...

So fellow member what should i do , and if its worthwile what brands /models should i look for.. budget will be maby up to 500-600£ but lower prefered.

This is my own conclusion, i had the Audiolab 8000p/m in my sights.

[Phlog]

Someone posted here a few weeks ago the comment that there was little difference between using internal or external amplifiers with Onkyo AV amps - that was put down to the quality of the pre-amp/processor stages.

There is a separate issue - it's quite difficult (impossible?) to find reasonably priced processors that have all the facilities people have become used to from modern AV amplifiers.

[theo cupier]

So if Onkyos aren't the best to pair up with an external power amp due to their pre-amp/processor stages, are there any makes which would be worth doing this for?

Denon, Marantz, Yamaha...?

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by Phlog

Someone posted here a few weeks ago the comment that there was little difference between using internal or external amplifiers with Onkyo AV amps - that was put down to the quality of the pre-amp/processor stages.

There is a separate issue - it's quite difficult (impossible?) to find reasonably priced processors that have all the facilities people have become used to from modern AV amplifiers.

That was probably me

At the time I was using the 875 as a Pre and an Arcam P7 as a power amp. I couldn't tell much of a difference with or without the power amp attached.

In retrospect I think thet was a lot to do with the speakers I had at the time (M&K LCR850s). Despite their reputation they don't need as much umph as the XTZs do which are around 3-4db less sensitive than the 850s.

I decided to have another go with the 875 as a Pre and bought a Cinepro 2K6. Now this is in a different league to the Arcam and the hungrier 99.36s really made use of the extra power on tap.

The Cinepro really opens up the bass from the XTZs as they are being given almost unlimited power and they really deliver a punch that wasn't quite their with the 875.

My personal opinion is that the Onkyo processing isn't 'great' but it still does a good job but you will have to spend quite a bit before you can really improve on the 905s internal amps.

If you look at the specs on a lot of stereo power amps or mono blocks they generally deliver more current per channel than a similiarly rated multichannel amp. If you really want to spend more money, I would be inclined to get seperate amps for the front 3 or a stereo amp for the L&R.

Good setup and sub integration would probably be my first priority before additional amplification though. How did you get on with REW etc.?

Adam

[theo cupier]

Does that mean that you could pair up any AV Surround amp that has pre-outs with a separate power amp and expect some improvement in performance over using it as an "all in one" box, then? Or are some better suited than others to this? Either due to better processing, or whatever?

[henrik-t]

Originally Posted by theo cupier

Does that mean that you could pair up any AV Surround amp that has pre-outs with a separate power amp and expect some improvement in performance over using it as an "all in one" box, then? Or are some better suited than others to this? Either due to better processing, or whatever?

yes , the smaller resivers i the leauge of Denon 17-19xx and maby ohter simalir,but whit good prossesing, i thnik there is a big difference to be achived.. but when the amp puts out 220~140 multi Ch like the 905 , then i wasent sure, but i think its a interresting debate... and im hoping to get more replys, and recomondation on brands of power amps than i should look after 2 nd hand...



Angel . nope havent had the time to play whit the Rew yet (have a sike girlfirend som can play that loud and not sweep tones....!! but she is getting better.., but willl get around it before i do buy a power amp.. and the current you talking about, is it the "amp" ~40, so when big power is nedded, in big movie scenes or komplex musik is there in a jiffy.

is this enughf to better the onkyo, a

Linn AV 5105 Power Amplifier or 2 : 240 mono bloks..!?

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by theo cupier

Does that mean that you could pair up any AV Surround amp that has pre-outs with a separate power amp and expect some improvement in performance over using it as an "all in one" box, then? Or are some better suited than others to this? Either due to better processing, or whatever?

Any Receiver's pre-out stage is never going to be the same quality as a dedicated processor, as it is not a primary feature. However I wasn't implying that the Onkyo was any worse or any better than another brand's Receiver. I doubt there is much difference and it isn't the sort of feature that gets reviewed.

A seperate power amp will almost always give improvements to the sound reproduction, the question is can you hear it with your speakers and if you can, is it worth the extra cost? In the case I cited the £3k or so of Arcam P7 was absolutely not worth it, so I sold it and bought a better sub which absolutely was worth it.

If you haven't properly integrated your speakes and sub you may find that £500 spent on an SMS-1 (assuming it is required) may be money better spent than £1000 on a power amp.

What I am trying to suggest is that a decent power amp like a parasound or audiolab may well improve things but perhaps not as much as some other upgrade.

Adam

[theo cupier]

Thanks for the perspective.

What I'm trying to add is DTS-HD and Dolby True HD capabilities to my system and ideally some form of video switching (if not upsampling/upconversion) due to a deficiency of HDMI ports on my plasma.

I'm limited to DD/core DTS from my S350 BD player at present due to the lack of HDMI on my amp. I did contemplate going the analog out route with a S550, but the lack of bass management etc put me off.

I figured that properly managed DTS would probably be about as good as partly managed DTS-HD from the player (but still not as good as bitstreaming to the processor via HDMI) and I could save a few quid on the player that way.

So, if I can add DTS-HD and some video switching to my system - with something like a Denon 2808 - for only a few £00 and leave the power amplification to my Rotel 985 (and the stereo processing to my Rega) then this might be a good stop-gap until the dedicated processor market has a few more options for HD.

I realise the processing won't be world beating, but it should be better than DTS core via coaxial and if I'm leaving the stereo sources to my Rega processor I don't need to worry about the stereo performance.

Does the logic seem reasonable? Or am I just wasting money that I should put straight into one of the current HD audio dedicated processors?

[Parmenion]

I owned a Denon integrated av amp and was very happy with it. Later I had the opportunity to buy a Rotel power amp and hooked the two up together.

The improvement was so striking I spent the best part of an afternoon plugging and unplugging the two, just to appreciate the enormous difference it made.

Just my tuppence worth.

regards

Parmenion

[henrik-t]

Thx for all the replys, this is still on the drawing bord, som any opionions would be great..


Im looking at the Aodiolab 8000p and m , and Nad M25 (don t know 2nd hand sale price on thise.) and the nad t975, it any of thise not wort wihle..

[motile rod 2]

I use a denon 1908 and an arcam p1000. The difference after adding the arcam was staggering, like going from a home theatre in a box to a proper hifi set up. Obviously the price difference between the two is very big so that's hardly surprising. If you're using a fairly decent av amp, it might be wiser to go for a stereo power amp, as you'll get much more for you're money. The surround effects will not benefit as much from a superior power amp, but you'll really hear the difference with music.

[t72bogie]

Ive had a 905 since the first month they were out. I looked at the power ratings and thought it would be more than enough, as I was moving house, getting a much larger living room, and taking the opportunity to upgrade my rig.

Anyway, the first day I was trying to get near reference level in my (albeit very large) living room, it would just get driven into thermal cut out....there wasnt enough real power to drive my AG Ref 3.1s I run up front. But then when you really investigate the "220w/p/ch" rating, it turns out to be one channel at limited range ...in reality the 905 really has about 120w pch at 20-20 all channels driven...the usual bull.

The only reason I upgraded was that I needed a lot more real power to drive the speakers (themselves rated 350rms continuous) enough to excite the room. So anyway, Ive got 2 x 3 channel Artcoustic power amps, giving me 2 x 700wrms channels for the fronts and 4 x 400rms for the rest - sorted, more than enough, and I really noticed a difference in how the speakers were driven

I wouldnt say it sounds "better quality" though - after all, a good power amp shouldnt taint the music IMO, it should just be neutral. The sound of the system is a combination of many other things, especially the source and the processing. I will probably upgrade the 905 to a more "high-end" box...but as others have mentioned - trying to find one that ticks all the boxes for convenience and features that you get with the Onkyo is pretty difficult right now, regardless of price point - so im holding fire ....maybe Arcam will do one once their new reciever has been out a while...we'll see...but before I splash out £2K upwards on a new processor, I want to hear a difference !

so in short - I wouldnt be upgrading power amps on the Onkyo unless you need more power. Otherwise, upgrade both at the same time and go for a higher end pre/pro when they are available - not much out there right now though

[henrik-t]

sorry to say i do not have the dogh for at pre + power new.....

Anyone heard of thise :


Denon POA-4400A

i found watts specs from 150-180 watts in 8 ohm , but i do not know the real one..

RMS into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with no more than 0.02% total harmonic distortion 250 W (4 ohm, DIN 1 kHz)

Dynamic power: 400 W (at 4 ohm); 600 W (at 1 ohm)
Total harmonic distortion: Less than 0.002% (-3 dB at rated output, 8 ohm)
Inter modulation distortion: Less than 0.002%; (60 Hz/7 kHz: 4/1 at rated output, 8 ohms)
Power band width: 5 Hz - 80 kHz (8 ohms, THD 0.03%)

Frequency response: 1 Hz-300 kHz + 0, -3dB (at1 W)
Input sensitivity: 1 V (Normal in); 1 V (Balance in)
Input impedance: 25 k ohms
Output impedance: 0.1 ohm (1 kHz)

S/N ratio: 123 dB (IHF, A-weighting)
Output terminals: Speakers A or B 4 ohm~16 ohm; A+B 8 ohm~16 ohm

Will 2 of thise do any difrence, or should i look more around for new models , audiolab 8000p /m or is thise same or better leauge... i think i can treade somthing to get thise for free almost...

Could i set thise to 4 ohm and will my speakers manege that...?? or isent that the way it works.

[t72bogie]

it dosent work like that - you cant set your speakers to 4 ohm

in simple terms, what im saying is that if you dont require more power than the Onkyo will give, there is no reason to upgrade the power amps at all.

You dont say why you are not happy with the Onkyo? It is a very good integrated solution, certainly great VFM, and you will struggle to get anything that "sounds better" with the same features without spending many thousands of pounds (if at all right now)

If you are looking for an upgrade strategy, like buying power amps now, then upgrading the processor lately, then you really need to spend quite some cash to get better too im afraid. I would probably look at spending at least the same on power amps, as the whole Onkyo - so Id spend £1400 or more over here on a good 5 channel power amp ...in fact Id go for monoblocks or seperate amps - fitting 3 good high-power channels of amplification into a box that can be racked up is hard enough IMO

Im a similar position myself, so have im always looking at this, and right now, for my needs, I havnt come across another processor that will do all the features I want, as well as sound significantly better than the Onkyo ....so the Onkyo will stay for the forseeable future

[henrik-t]

no not the speakers, but the mono bloks...... if you can set them at 4ohm, the ill get 400watt, and the speakers can handle 4 ohm.

Thx again , if anyone have opionions then share them whit me, im all ears...

[Phlog]

Originally Posted by henrik-t

sorry to say i do not have the dogh for at pre + power new.....

Anyone heard of thise :


Denon POA-4400A

i found watts specs from 150-180 watts in 8 ohm , but i do not know the real one..

RMS into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with no more than 0.02% total harmonic distortion 250 W (4 ohm, DIN 1 kHz)

Dynamic power: 400 W (at 4 ohm); 600 W (at 1 ohm)
Total harmonic distortion: Less than 0.002% (-3 dB at rated output, 8 ohm)
Inter modulation distortion: Less than 0.002%; (60 Hz/7 kHz: 4/1 at rated output, 8 ohms)
Power band width: 5 Hz - 80 kHz (8 ohms, THD 0.03%)

Frequency response: 1 Hz-300 kHz + 0, -3dB (at1 W)
Input sensitivity: 1 V (Normal in); 1 V (Balance in)
Input impedance: 25 k ohms
Output impedance: 0.1 ohm (1 kHz)

S/N ratio: 123 dB (IHF, A-weighting)
Output terminals: Speakers A or B 4 ohm~16 ohm; A+B 8 ohm~16 ohm

Will 2 of thise do any difference, or should i look more around for new models , audiolab 8000p /m or is thise same or better leauge... i think i can treade something to get this for free almost...

Could i set thise to 4 ohm and will my speakers manage that...?? or isent that the way it works.

AV amplifier specifications are often very confusing - possibly quite deliberately?

Anyway, the audio output of an amplifier is a product of current and voltage.

As the loudspeaker impedance falls, so the amplifier has to provide a higher current - just to maintain the same audio output. But since power is the product of voltage and current, that means the amplifier has a higher power rating for lower impedance speakers. But that higher power rating is totally irrelevant so far as audio output goes.

Incidentally, if a speaker is inefficient, the amplifier has to produce a higher voltage to maintain a given audio output.

You should note that AV amplifiers generally are rather poor at providing higher currents in lower impedance speakers. Also, the distortion levels of almost all amplifiers increase into lower impedance loads.

To sum up, what you are suggesting won't work.

[henrik-t]

could anyone comment on thise poweramp , the Denon ones, are the oki or crap...!!

[t72bogie]

yes, I can comment, you wont notice any real difference so dont bother

[henrik-t]

Thx..... but im still looking into getting a good power amp... but i don t know what renge or brand i should look into, maby i l not buy befoer 3 months , but then i have some reading to do

[henrik-t]

My friand just gave me a old Yamaha MX-1000 that should have 260Watt pr channel

I havent hocked it up yat cause it was in his garge for 1day, i have clened it up indside whit ear twigs and will letting it stand inside in my home for 2 days..

Is this Poweramp any good, i know its old but dose that matter if it works...!??

any reply will be thanked..

Henrik

[t72bogie]

if it works, and you like the sound then I wouldnt worry about ratings and opinions

However, in my experience of consumer electronics, Yamaha are on a par with Onkyo ...and that "260w per channel" may not be actually any more than the Onkyo, which is 220w @6 ohm 1Khz, 1ch driven ....note the big numbers for marketing purposes used

in reality, what you are interested in is, all channels driven 20-20Khz @8 ohm AND the current output it can delivery, which will give you a more meaningful represenation of the power of the amplifier when comparing it with high end kit

the Onkyo is about 120w per channel if you measure it the same way as say Bryston do their amps, which makes perfect sense given size of the unit, and what you can actually cram into an "all in one" receiver/amp box these days

thats why I upgrade the amps and use my 905 as a processor ...as my speakers really do need 300-500 *real* watts of power to sing in my large barn living room (50 ft x 19ft, vaulted ceiling)

So, I would give that amp a try, if you like, although I dont quite understand what you will gain, other than a 2 box solution - you could later then upgrade to an Onkyo 886 processor, and sell the 905, but I personally would want a more high end amp than the Yamaha to run with that

[McFaber]

Originally Posted by henrik-t

My friand just gave me a old Yamaha MX-1000 that should have 260Watt pr channel

I havent hocked it up yat cause it was in his garge for 1day, i have clened it up indside whit ear twigs and will letting it stand inside in my home for 2 days..

Is this Poweramp any good, i know its old but dose that matter if it works...!??

any reply will be thanked..

Henrik

The Yamaha MX-1000 is definitely worth a go IMO.
Without knowing very much about the the speakers or the Yamaha, I have made the effort to look up some facts on both the Yammie & XTZ's...

Recommended power for XTZ's; 500W short-term & 200W long-term,
Power output of the Yamaha MX-1000(u?) is actually what you say it is; 260W @8 Ohm.

It's worth mentioning the Yammie will accept loads down to 2 Ohms and has has peak power @(about)123dB, plus 90w channel separation...
Those specs alone offer a good indication of what the amp is capable of and IMO the Yammie(2 CH) would quite happily eat the Onkyo for breakfast, no disrespect to Onkyo either as it is a very good receiver.

TBH & IMHO I think the Onkyo would will not offer the current required for these(full range)XTZ speakers...

[henrik-t]

I did hocked it up to the Onkyo today, i havent played over -25Db yet, but it seems like the bass is more tigth, but the overall stereo image noting to say yet i havent usede it more than 20 min , and donig a/b.

Any klever advice how to to A/B testing whitout pulling the bananas out of the speakers when it the Yamaha turn to play....

I used cabel from the yamaha into the top terminal aned when its the onkyos turn i insert the banabas and pull out the pre outs, is there a more easy way... if i do use out 2 zone pre, is the Onkyo then delevering the same as though the front pre outs..!?

and what level do i have to reach to hear true difference.... i have set the yamaha to max on the 2 volume dails... when conected this way is the yamaha then using max amount of watt, even you don t listen to max DB level


Thx Henrik

[Nadmanken]

Have you not tried the bridging option on the 905 - (using 4 of the internal amps to drive the fronts)

ken

[henrik-t]

yes i have , tride using the back surr as bi.amp, but could not hear anyting diffret, if there where a differnce i could not hear it...
and i want a 7.1 setup

Henrik

[Russell.Williams]

Whilst the difference adding a power amp may make, may be initially limited, making the jump cannot be underestimated in the long run.

The current limitation may be that the Onkyo's analogue outputs aren't all that good and thus may be the bottle neck in audio quality - Gordon @ Convergent AV seems to have some opinions in this regard.

I would therefore suggest that adding a power-amp will make a difference, but if it's not as large as you might hope for for, it's down to two reasons. One is the above, the other is that the processor has a lot more bearing on sound quality than a power-amp, as it's performing far more complex operations with the signal in both digital and analogue forms at low levels. Its not unreasonable to suspect that a unit dedicated to the handling of these signals without the deleterious effects of having high power amplification in the same box may make a much better job of it.

The important thing is that making the jump to separate power-amps will deliver at least a small improvement, but more importantly, it is the first step to allowing you to buy a processor which will make much bigger differences in the long run.

As an aside, whilst power amps don't really change that much from year to year, the technological strides are made in processing. With a receiver, this means upgrading your entire amplification chain every couple of years. With a processor, your power-amps will remain unchanged for years and the likely as not your processor will want changing half as often as an AVR, especially as audiophile quality designs now incorporate HDMI connections capable of resolving all of the HD audio formats yet dreamed up.

Russell

[theo cupier]

FWIW I bought a Denon 2309 a few weeks ago, to replace my Yamaha E800, as I posted earlier in the thread. I'm using the Denon's pre-outs to my Rotel 985.

I am noticing an improvement in sound quality. I think there's a few reasons:
1. I've spent £500 on the Denon, OF COURSE it's better than the old kit, dammit.
2. As Russ suggests, just better processing of signals - having DTS NEO, PLII etc
3. Proper bass and speaker management of HD audio which you don't really get with player decoding and analog connections.

It'll certainly keep me happy until I can sneak in a dedicated HD audio and video processor, by which time hopefully the market for these will have matured somewhat. Also, it gives me 5 channel power amplification, just in case my Rotel goes pop one day!

[whacko77uk]

Just to throw in my 2p...

I use an Onkyo 805 with 2 Arcam power Amps. I use the P38 to drive the front two, KEF XQ40 and a P90/3 to dirve the centre and the rears (XQ10).

There is a huge difference in quality, power and overall sound output with the power amps.

I agree that the processor makes a big difference to sound quality, however there is a very limited selection of processors that decode HD and do everything an AV receiver offers.

Perhaps you could try and pick up a second hand power amp on here.