[Vipers @ HiFi Lounge]

Looks like you are in luck alpha, just heard from PMC that there are no Bryston price increases planned at the moment, what's next on your shopping list then mate

[Julian Stevens]

Thank God I managed to get the deals I did and when I did on my Bryston and PMC stuff ~ if I hadn't, my current system would have remained forever just a pipedream. The prices of everything from or via PMC just seem to go up and up in leaps and bounds. It wasn't very long ago that a 4B-SST retailed for £2,500 and a pair of IB2's for about £6,800, yet look at the prices now, e.g. £11,230 for a pair of IB2i's. Seriously scary and yet, for all that, PMC say that they're going great guns on just about every front.

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by Julian Stevens

For only $300 you're not going to get anything remotely comparable to a Bryston BIT (or a PurePower 2000i, which is what I bought a couple of years before the BIT was conceived). Better to save up for what you really want and then go for it.

???
Darrenc was asking about a cheaper option than a Bryston BIT, and it was you that suggested the AG1500. I wasn't suggesting that it's comparable to the BIT, but a scan of the specs suggests its not too dissimilar to the PurePower 2000i; they're both substantial double-conversion power regenerators with battery back-up:

IPS AG1500:
Input voltage: 160-290V
Continuous output: 1500W
Overload output: 2000W
Peak output: 3000W
Outlets: 6
Voltage regulation: +/-2%
Frequency regulation: +/-0.2%
Half load runtime: 28 min
Dimensions: 88 x 440 x 440
Temp range: 0-30 degC
Noise: <15dBA
Batt weight: 28kg

PurePower 2000i:
Input voltage: 160-288V
Continuous output: 1400W
Overload output: 2000W
Peak output: 4200W
Outlets: 7
Voltage regulation: +/-2%
Frequency regulation: +/-0.1%
Half load runtime: 15 min
Dimensions: 130 x 432 x 570
Temp range: 0-32 degC
Noise: <14dBA
Batt weight: 29.5kg

They seem to be different to the Bryston BIT, but I'm curious about the latter - can anyone explain what it actually is? Is it a power conditioner or a power regenerator? I'll explain why I ask in a minute.

Cheers, Nick

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Vipers @ Zinc-HT

Looks like you are in luck alpha, just heard from PMC that there are no Bryston price increases planned at the moment, what's next on your shopping list then mate

I am in a strange position, right now I am very happy with my sounds and it is mostly pretty well balanced, capability wise. This means that if I were to change one thing then it is not only going to be hugely expensive, but there are knock on's too. So for example, I would at some stage like to move further up the PMC range, particularily for the mid range, as female vocals are my thing, but I like floorstanders, there aren't any! So the IB2's are the obvious choice, nice, however will the 4BSST2 drive them, maybe but really I should be looking to swap out for 7B's, well that is £20k gone

Colin from PMC hinted that there may be a new floorstander coming eventually, maybe I should just start saving for that IF it arrives...

Depending on the price of the BIT, I may grab one of those, more to safe guard my kit than anything else, in mean time I am just sitting back and enjoying my music and films, they have never sounded SO good

Cheers

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Welwynnick

???

They seem to be different to the Bryston BIT, but I'm curious about the latter - can anyone explain what it actually is? Is it a power conditioner or a power regenerator? I'll explain why I ask in a minute.

Cheers, Nick

Hi Nick, if you go back to Viper's post #295, he has re-printed Bryston's blurb on the BIT range. They are not regenerators in any way, they are transformer based; powerline conditioner, isolation and protection units.

Cheers

[larevoj]

Hi Alpha, I am somewhat in the same position as you. After a few upgrades I realized at some point I need a full proof and reliable power conditioner to safe guard my investment thus far. I heard how the Torus can improve the overall SQ however there is so much more it can offer. The Torus isn't cheap but when your overall system exceeds certain price point I find its worth the investment.

Btw, lately I upgraded my rack to 2 units of Solid Tech Solo Three instead of just one tall rack and rest my racks on Boston Audio TuneBlock S...the entire system changes dramatically. Its very quiet, very wide and deep soundstage and sounded more natural and relaxed...I never expected racks can make such differences.

Originally Posted by alpha10

I am in a strange position, right now I am very happy with my sounds and it is mostly pretty well balanced, capability wise. This means that if I were to change one thing then it is not only going to be hugely expensive, but there are knock on's too. So for example, I would at some stage like to move further up the PMC range, particularily for the mid range, as female vocals are my thing, but I like floorstanders, there aren't any! So the IB2's are the obvious choice, nice, however will the 4BSST2 drive them, maybe but really I should be looking to swap out for 7B's, well that is £20k gone

Colin from PMC hinted that there may be a new floorstander coming eventually, maybe I should just start saving for that IF it arrives...

Depending on the price of the BIT, I may grab one of those, more to safe guard my kit than anything else, in mean time I am just sitting back and enjoying my music and films, they have never sounded SO good

Cheers

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by alpha10

Hi Nick, if you go back to Viper's post #295, he has re-printed Bryston's blurb on the BIT range. They are not regenerators in any way, they are transformer based; powerline conditioner, isolation and protection units.

I obviously read Vipers post, and poured all over Bryston's web-sites and spec sheets trying to understand these products. And that's why I ask, as I'm not clear what sort of product the BITs are.

There are several different problems associated with mains, and I think these are actually best explained on the Pure Power website (which was a major motivation to get the AG500).

There are some products that filter HF noise and interference; some that provide galvanic isolation; some that protect against spikes/over-voltage; some that do double conversion, and some that do storage. It looks like the BITs provide isolation, filtering and surge protection, which is rather like what the Panamax power conditioners do. It looks like there's a voltage regulation option though, which makes them like the Furman regulator/conditioners.

Well, that's not simply a mains conditioner, then. There's also a supply regulation facility to maintain a controlled 115V or 230V output, even when the input voltage varies. When I think about voltage regulators, I think about DC regulators, not AC regulators, which is what these appear to be. How does that happen? Double conversion units like PurePower & PS Audio can generate whatever voltage and frequency they like, as the output is synthesised instead of filtered. The BITs & Furmans use a single transformer, so there doesn't appear to be a DC intermediate stage, or any opportunity to regulate the output. All I can think of is they must use variable-ratio transformers with multi-tap secondaries that are dynamically swtiched in response to an open-loop control from the mains input, or from a closed-loop control taken from the output. I wasn't aware than any conditioners did that. I wonder if it means that the BITs can keep the output voltage stable under dynamic loading condtions from a power amp?

There's another query as well, but time's up.

Nick

[mannyjarnail]

you can find more information on the Torus website as i beleive the BIT is basically a Torus Unit.

I have heard the PS Audio Powerplant PPP with a pair of 7BSST amplifiers and they worked extremely well.

[Vipers @ HiFi Lounge]

Originally Posted by alpha10

I am in a strange position, right now I am very happy with my sounds and it is mostly pretty well balanced, capability wise. This means that if I were to change one thing then it is not only going to be hugely expensive, but there are knock on's too. So for example, I would at some stage like to move further up the PMC range, particularily for the mid range, as female vocals are my thing, but I like floorstanders, there aren't any! So the IB2's are the obvious choice, nice, however will the 4BSST2 drive them, maybe but really I should be looking to swap out for 7B's, well that is £20k gone

Colin from PMC hinted that there may be a new floorstander coming eventually, maybe I should just start saving for that IF it arrives...

Depending on the price of the BIT, I may grab one of those, more to safe guard my kit than anything else, in mean time I am just sitting back and enjoying my music and films, they have never sounded SO good

Cheers

Hi alpha,

I'm in the same boat really, I've given up on the thought of the MB2 XBD's for now, I'm going to sit back and enjoy my MB's, I would love a pair of 28's but with the MB's I don't see them giving me any more than the 7B's really, they do look damn sexy though

I have got the BHA-1 to look forward to, hopefully soon, and like yourself I think a BIT would be a good addition to finish my system off, I've been in touch with PMC regarding info on the BITS so hopefully I'll get some info on Monday.

After saying all this, between you and me, I'm sure no one else reads this anyway over the last couple of months I have been working on something and if I can pull it off I guess it will be the ultimate PMC and Bryston upgrade, I'll let you know when, or should I say, if, it is going to happen, SSHHH!

All this talk of upgrading does beg the question, can we really ever be happy with our systems, irrespective of how good they are, or are we always looking for the next fix, sorry I mean upgrade I think that is why Naim is so successful as I think it is fair to say that most Naim customers are never really happy with their systems and have always got there next upgrade planned as they offer so many different options, and to be fair to Naim, every upgrade is an upgrade worth making.

It may be worth revisiting the Fact 8's alpha as over the last month or so I have been using them at work a lot and at last I'm starting to really appreciate what they do, I think originally they were so different in their presentation to the i series, which I love, that I just didn't get on with them, but as I have been using the twenty's so much at work they seem to have tuned my ear to that different presentation, now I listen to the Fact's and I absolutely love them, definitely be worth another extended listen I'd say, I guess this is a topic for another thread though.

[Julian Stevens]

Originally Posted by alpha10

I am in a strange position, right now I am very happy with my sounds and it is mostly pretty well balanced, capability wise. This means that if I were to change one thing then it is not only going to be hugely expensive, but there are knock ons too. So for example, I would at some stage like to move further up the PMC range, particularily for the mid range, as female vocals are my thing, but I like floorstanders, there aren't any! So the IB2's are the obvious choice, nice, however will the 4BSST2 drive them, maybe but really I should be looking to swap out for 7B's, well that is £20k gone

Colin from PMC hinted that there may be a new floorstander coming eventually, maybe I should just start saving for that IF it arrives...

Depending on the price of the BIT, I may grab one of those, more to safe guard my kit than anything else, in mean time I am just sitting back and enjoying my music and films, they have never sounded SO good

Cheers

From personal experience, I can tell you that the 4B-SST isn't fully up to the job of driving a pair of IB's (Peter Thomas agrees) and, if you do buy a pair, you will indeed need a pair of 7B's (or something of similar calibre) to do the job properly.

Given that the BIT's are just isolation transformers with a few added nick-knacks, they seem to be a bit pricey by comparison with a proper regenerator ~ but they may produce excellent results, I've never tried one.

I was initially interested in the PS Audio PowerPlant but then put off by various reports of them misbehaving in one way or another on UK mains and by the fact that even PS Audio themselves appear unable to explain what the cause/s might be. Then there's the Audience adeptResponse at £3,800 and a host of non-Hi-Fi units (all at much more reasonable prices, though not reviewed anywhere).

The Power Inspired AG1500 may indeed represent excellent value for money (again, I've been unable to locate any reviews), though whether or not its maximum power capacity is up to the demands of a pair of 7B's working hard into a demanding 4 ohm load (as are the IB's) I don't know. You may need two. Plus, of course, all its output sockets are IEC so you'd need to reterminate all your power cords. If, like me, you already use stout 20 amp mains cable, such a job would be a bit of a pain.

And then, in addition to those options, there appear to be a number of three phase conditioners around, which may or may not be suitable for use with conventional two phase equipment. But hey, ho, each to his own. For my part, I've been quite happy with my PurePower 2000i (once I had the mod done to lower the supply voltage to the fans and reduce its otherwise intrusive fan noise).

If your preference is for floor standing speakers, PMC do several, not least the EB1's ~ but why get hung up about floor-standers vs. stand-mounts?

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Julian Stevens

If your preference is for floor standing speakers, PMC do several, not least the EB1's ~ but why get hung up about floor-standers vs. stand-mounts?

That was my concern with the IB2's, never mind..

They haven't made the EB1's for some time now, I had hoped when they stopped production of them there would be EB2's to follow, but it appears not.

I have small children and feel that floorstanders are generally safer, I also prefer the look as they live in my main living room.

Cheers

[ritchief]

Originally Posted by alpha10

That was my concern with the IB2's, never mind..

They haven't made the EB1's for some time now, I had hoped when they stopped production of them there would be EB2's to follow, but it appears not.

I have small children and feel that floorstanders are generally safer, I also prefer the look as they live in my main living room.

Cheers

The thing to remember Alpha is that the IBs / MB2is are very heavy and I would suggest it would take some force to knock them over.

[Julian Stevens]

Originally Posted by alpha10

That was my concern with the IB2's, never mind..

They haven't made the EB1's for some time now, I had hoped when they stopped production of them there would be EB2's to follow, but it appears not.

I have small children and feel that floorstanders are generally safer, I also prefer the look as they live in my main living room.

Cheers

A quick Google search brings up several places still advertising EB1's so, if they're what you're really set on, it shouldn't be at all difficult to get hold of a pair. Then again, as noted above, with the IB's weighing 90 lbs your kids would have to be pretty strong to knock one over ~ when blu tac'd to their stands, they take a lot of separating from them so to all intents ands purposes they're just as stable as a pair of floor standers.

I imagine PMC stopped making them due to lack of demand, given that all they are is a pair of IB1's in a longer cabinet.

[Black Tarantula]

Originally Posted by Julian Stevens

A quick Google search brings up several places still advertising EB1's

I think you'll find that all dealers have no stock of the EB1's , they were dis-continued a while back now..

[Julian Stevens]

Originally Posted by Black Tarantula

I think you'll find that all dealers have no stock of the EB1's , they were dis-continued a while back now..

The only way to verify such a claim would be to visit the website of every single PMC dealer in the UK. One of them might still have a pair. When I decided to hunt down a Bryston BDA-1 (still in production, I know) I visited the website of every Bryston dealer in the UK and eventually, with just three to go, found an ex-display one for £1,600 (in black, as well, which was the only colour I wanted) at a store in Scotland (I'm listening through it right now). It took quite some time to explore the sites of all those dealers in search of what I was after at a bargain price, but it paid off eventually. There must be a pair of EB1's out there somewhere and if there isn't right now, there probably will be sooner or later. Within reason, it's possible to find just about anything you're after on the InterNet, provided you're prepared to keep at it long enough. That having said, I never did manage to find a Lyngdorf RP-1, but that's something of a rare beast and now I've got the BDA-1 (which accounts for this year's hi-fi expenditure) and, at long last, the right digital lead (a humble QED for just £18.50), the bass is so much better than it's been since I sold my TacT RCS, that my need for room correction has diminished considerably.

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Julian Stevens

A quick Google search brings up several places still advertising EB1's so, if they're what you're really set on, it shouldn't be at all difficult to get hold of a pair. Then again, as noted above, with the IB's weighing 90 lbs your kids would have to be pretty strong to knock one over ~ when blu tac'd to their stands, they take a lot of separating from them so to all intents ands purposes they're just as stable as a pair of floor standers.

I imagine PMC stopped making them due to lack of demand, given that all they are is a pair of IB1's in a longer cabinet.

Hi Julian, there was another issue for me with the EB's, that they never made them in the Oak finish for some reason, all the rest of my speakers and stands are oak, and the boss would not accept anything that did not match, so even if there was a pair gathering dust somewhere ...

Cheers

[Vipers @ HiFi Lounge]

The EB's are (were) great speakers, I still wish I'd kept mine tbh and moved them to rear duties, but with the system you've got alpha, as you are more than aware, you really do need to move upto the PMC mid cone, it really is a big step up, the PB's and EB's just wouldn't give you the upgrade you are after + you need to do that SP3 justice

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by mannyjarnail

you can find more information on the Torus website as i beleive the BIT is basically a Torus Unit.
I have heard the PS Audio Powerplant PPP with a pair of 7BSST amplifiers and they worked extremely well.

Thanks. I read the relevent parts of the Torus website, and it looks like the BIT pages on Bryston were lifted straight from Torus, so it looks like the same product. I think that clarifies, for me, that the BITs are power conditioners with optional voltage regulation (ie: electronically variable transformer).

The second dumb question concerns the peak output capability. Torus / Bryston claim that their conditioners don't restrict dynamic power supply requirements like others do. Specifically, they have very low output impedance, and can supply many times their continuous rated output for short durations.

This is the sort of capability that you get from power supplies with DC outputs. Power is stored in a large capacitor - notionally there to provide ripple-smoothing - but which can also discharge quickly to provide high short-term currents. However, capacitors can only store DC energy, not AC. The double-conversion products like PS Audio and PurePower do have an intermediate DC stage; usually with storage capacitors, and some even have batteries.

Either way, these power regenerators can and do store DC power, and can release it over short peaks to meet power amp demand. The PurePower and Power Inspired specs that I summarised above showed how their products were able to double their continuous output for short durations, but they both have capacitors and batteries to store DC energy. PS Audio power plants have a similar capability, but without battery back-up.

However, The Bryston / Torus conditioners are single-conversion products, and do not appear to have any DC storage. Yet Bryston in particular places great emphasis on how their conditioners don't restrict short-term power delivery. So how do they do that?

Nick

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Welwynnick

However, The Bryston / Torus conditioners are single-conversion products, and do not appear to have any DC storage. Yet Bryston in particular places great emphasis on how their conditioners don't restrict short-term power delivery. So how do they do that?

Nick

Nick, you don't think they are actually doing some sort of Flyback or hybrid do you?

Cheers

[Dav1dF]

I'm sure Alpha's OB1i's are doing just fine - the Twenty.24's didn't seem to be holding our SP3 back at our open evening. It still sounded phenomenally good

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by alpha10

Nick, you don't think they are actually doing some sort of Flyback or hybrid do you?
Cheers

That's what I was wondering before I had to rush off.

There's got to be something else going on in there if the conditioner is storing energy.

Nick

[Vipers @ HiFi Lounge]

Originally Posted by Dav1dF

I'm sure Alpha's OB1i's are doing just fine - the Twenty.24's didn't seem to be holding our SP3 back at our open evening. It still sounded phenomenally good

Don't get me wrong, the combination of OB's, 4B and SP3 is a powerhouse of a system, likewise the SP3 works brilliantly with the twenty's, I was just saying that put the SP3 with something like the IB's or MB's and obviously the whole performance moves up a notch, which surely is to be expected.

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Vipers @ Zinc-HT

you need to do that SP3 justice

You know how to press my buttons don't you

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Vipers @ Zinc-HT

Don't get me wrong, the combination of OB's, 4B and SP3 is a powerhouse of a system, likewise the SP3 works brilliantly with the twenty's, I was just saying that put the SP3 with something like the IB's or MB's and obviously the whole performance moves up a notch, which surely is to be expected.

I think I am going to have to just try some IB2i's at home, some time...

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Welwynnick

That's what I was wondering before I had to rush off.

There's got to be something else going on in there if the conditioner is storing energy.

Nick

The primary and secondary would have to be non-continuous, variable tap, in some way to store energy, maybe that is also how the voltage control is being varied?

Cheers

[Black Tarantula]

Originally Posted by alpha10

I think I am going to have to just try some IB2i's at home, some time...

Hi I see from your sig you own a 4B, you may have to change your amplification to drive the IB's to get any real benefit cheers.

[Vipers @ HiFi Lounge]

Originally Posted by alpha10

I think I am going to have to just try some IB2i's at home, some time...

Not trying to push any buttons here alpha, honest But if you do eventually go with the IB's and you do have to upgrade to 7B's would it not be worth considering the IB2S-A's? I think after hearing their XBD bigger brother at our open day that would definately be something I would consider.

You could even have them in Blue to match your LED's, I'm sure Mrs Alpha would approve

IB2S-A | PMC Loudspeakers

[Black Tarantula]

[QUOTE=Vipers @ Zinc-HT;16952498]

You could even have them in Blue to match your LED's, I'm sure Mrs Alpha would approve



Heck they are pricey speakers, I read alpha has oak furniture so blue would be a major mis-match I think but some may like the combo.

[Vipers @ HiFi Lounge]

Originally Posted by Black Tarantula

Heck they are pricey speakers, I read alpha has oak furniture so blue would be a major mis-match I think but some may like the combo.

If I remember rightly, I was told by PMC that due to their finish you can pretty much choose any colour you like, for an extra cost obviously, although I have to say that the blue does look pretty snazzy

We seem to be merging the PMC and Bryston threads here, better get back on track what does everyone think to James Model T speakers that he has been developing for a while, active with DSP Crossovers, nice looking floorstander alpha, maybe just what you are looking for

[alpha10]

Originally Posted by Black Tarantula

Hi I see from your sig you own a 4B, you may have to change your amplification to drive the IB's to get any real benefit cheers.

Cheers BT, it seems the general concensus that the 4B is not up to the job, the only thing I find strange is that PMC always recommend the Powerpac-300 to activate the IB's which is just half a 4b??

Cheers