[indus]

Firstly apologies for the poorly thought out title, and secondly apologies if it seems like I ask the same question again and again in different ways.

Here is what I'm thinking. I'd like to buy a dedicated up to date pro soon. I also want REALLY good stereo music and see two options.

1) Spend a lot of money on something like the Arcam 888, ie £4k, which has a good rep with music.

Or something that's occurred to me

2) Buy an Onkyo 886 (or similar) for £1500, and an extra 2ch quad amp (£700) and a good quality speaker switch (QED £100)

When I want to watch films, its the Onkyo + quad poweramps. When I want to listen to music, I bypass the AVP all together and use the speaker switch to allow the CDP and extra Quad poweramp to do the business.

Like this, for music, I have no AVP 'corrupting' my stereo/cd signal. It will also cost £1700 less than high end avp option.

So the question is this; will the speaker switch corrupt my stereo signal less than an avp, including a high end one like the Arcam?

Thanks

[KelvinS1965]

Just so I understand you (as I'm very interested in this kind of stereo/AV combination myself) would this mean you would have two Quad poweramps? One amp would not be in use in either case? If so, then why not a line level swich into a single power amp (maybe buy a 'better' power amp): This way you would use the AV amp into the line level switch into the Quad power amp for films. For music you would have the Quad CD player into the line level switch into the Quad power amp.

I'm thinking in terms of this kind of switch (or building something myself perhaps with a relay using my AV amp's 12 volt trigger to do the switching automatically):

RCA Phono Audio Switching Unit - 3 Way - Audio switches and Other - Audiovisual Online - High Quality Audio Video Cables and Accessories

Maybe research into something slightly more upmarket, but that's the kind of thing I mean.

[indus]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Just so I understand you (as I'm very interested in this kind of stereo/AV combination myself) would this mean you would have two Quad poweramps? One amp would not be in use in either case? If so, then why not a line level swich into a single power amp (maybe buy a 'better' power amp): This way you would use the AV amp into the line level switch into the Quad power amp for films. For music you would have the Quad CD player into the line level switch into the Quad power amp.

I'm thinking in terms of this kind of switch (or building something myself perhaps with a relay using my AV amp's 12 volt trigger to do the switching automatically):

RCA Phono Audio Switching Unit - 3 Way - Audio switches and Other - Audiovisual Online - High Quality Audio Video Cables and Accessories

Maybe research into something slightly more upmarket, but that's the kind of thing I mean.

Yes, my initial idea was to have 5 channels of amplification for the avr and then another seperate 2 channels for the stereo amp. I hadn't thought about your suggestion, which would mean you need two less channels of amplification.

I don't want to compromise, so the new question is this really;

With good/high end stereo preamp, would a speaker switch and/or line level switch let the signal through unmolested, such that you can get sound quality that is the same as you would have without the switches?

Thanks

Kelvin, here is a more expensive line level switch from Sonance, who I believe have a good reputation. Its a lot more expensive than the one you linked to, but if its of 'audiophile' quality then the price would be worth it for me.
I'm very very happy with the sound of my quad pre/cd, if this thing will allow its signal through without sonic deterioration, then its worth the money for me.
A lot cheaper than a £4k Arcam, thats for sure!

http://www.cyberselect.co.uk/product/1811

[KelvinS1965]

Thanks Indus, that was the kind of thing I was thinking of building myself, only I was planing on using the 12 volt trigger from my 2808 to switch the input over to the AV amp when needed.

However, last night I tried using the external 7.1 inputs on my 2808 (just the front left and right connections) and found that the sound for CDs was much better than using the 2808's 'CD' input. The 'CD' input still goes through some ADA processing even when set to 'Pure Direct', but it seems like the external input just goes through whatever stage is needed to pass through the master volume control. There is no control over delays, EQ, etc, using this input, which isn't needed anyway, but that implies a 'purer' signal path and I'm sure it sounded better this way. It then didn't seem to matter if I used my NAD C350 for pre and power duties or the 2808 as a preamp directly into the C350's power amp inputs. As this makes the setup much simpler I'll live with this a while as the result sounds good for CDs and movies were fine anyway.

Might be worth a try if you aren't using the external 5.1/7.1 inputs on your AV amp. I've not had anyone confirm the signal path using these inputs, so I could end up with egg on my face, but I'm sure it sounded better anyway.

[Jamie]

How about a variation on the way many people connect a stereo amp to an AVR for better 2 channel playback

You have a multi channel poweramp, a stereo pre amp and a AV processer/pre-amp

The output for L+R goes through the stereo pre-amp, preferably one with a bypass option on one of the inputs. Stereo components connect direct to the stereo pre-amp.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get a stereo preamp with AV bypass, its not standard on stereo amps but is available on quite a few higher end ones. Stereo pres are by their nature higher end so would expect the bypass to be an option on more of them

[KelvinS1965]

I used to run this way with my NAD C350. I calibrated my AV amp with the NAD set to 12 o'clock on the volume using the 'Aux' input. For CDs I just had to change to 'CD' input and remember to turn the volume down (as it's really loud half way up).

I suppose I'm just looking at a way to best use my P90/3 as it's only a power amp. However, I've been listening to loads of CDs this afternoon (while I'm supposed to be working ) and I've really enjoyed the sound using the ext inputs. However if there is an Arcam intergrated amp with the AV switch, maybe I could use it with my P90/3 to biamp the left and rights for CD use? I'll have to have a look on their website and in the classifieds.

[indus]

Kelvin what do you mean by the 'external inputs' of the avr?

Jimbob, don't quite understand what you mean. Could you explain exactly what connects to what in which order?

Kelvin, I might buy the switch you linked to, at £8, if its rubbish I'll chuck it in the bin. If it works really well, then it'll be the best vfm product I'll have ever bought!

[KelvinS1965]

I mean the 7.1 inputs that are meant for use for connecting a BluRay player's analogue outputs to. On my Denon they are labelled 'external input' and there are 8 input connectors including the subwoofer. The only thing the amp does is control the volume of them, so I suspect that this is done in analogue domain (or at least a simpler digital path than the 'normal' inputs that allow delay, EQ, etc.). Either way it sounds really good this way.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the £8 jobbie. For the price of a CD it's worth a shot.

[indus]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

I mean the 7.1 inputs that are meant for use for connecting a BluRay player's analogue outputs to. On my Denon they are labelled 'external input' and there are 8 input connectors including the subwoofer. The only thing the amp does is control the volume of them, so I suspect that this is done in analogue domain (or at least a simpler digital path than the 'normal' inputs that allow delay, EQ, etc.). Either way it sounds really good this way.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the £8 jobbie. For the price of a CD it's worth a shot.

Thanks I'll try the external inputs as well. This may sound a stupid question (I'm away from the avr at the moment to have a look) but when you use the external inputs what 'source' do you select, in other words how do you tell the avr to play cd?

Thanks

[Nic Rhodes]

I have run systems like this for years starting off with the stereo set at 12 for AV 'mode'. I now use a switch box system (actually 5 switch boxes!). I have found it is best to do this after processing but before amplification but that means external amps or in my case active speakers. I use 2 mono switches (8 way) for L and R duties and 4 way stereo switches for the other channels. Mine is all XLR balanced but that is not necessary. I also have one stereo amp with an AV bypass. That is good but some bypasses can be a bit weird. I struggled with a Yamaha one once from early DD external box era once and another similar Sony one.

[KelvinS1965]

Hi Indus, it may be different with Onkyo, but on my Denon I select whatever input I want to assign to CD playback (so logically I use the 'CD' input). Then I press another button that chooses between HDMI/Digital/Analogue/Auto/External. Once I've selected external, everytime I go to the 'CD' input the amp 'remembers' to use the external inputs for this.

[indus]

Nic, when you have used speaker switches do you feel as though they caused sonic deterioration?

Kelvin, yes I have assignable inputs, so can let cd be hdmi/digital in/ etc. I've never noticed 'external' being an option but that's probably just because I've never looked for it.

I will try today and report back

[Nic Rhodes]

yes I found speakers the worst (by a way), then RCA and best was XLR balanced. The latter two is more obvious but the former I think is just down to I^2R and the speaker leads have both higher R and higher current. Much more expensive to switch power as well both with speaker lead cost and higher current switches needed. The units I use are quite high bandwidth and appear fine for me. In fact the RCA variant has a 550Mhz bandwidth and I switch SDI signals! The switches are purely mechanical by the way. No RS232 / relay / active electronics.

[indus]

Thanks Nic but you've lost me a bit, my technical knowledge is poor. Are you saying you have tried both speaker switches and line level switches and found the former to be worse?

Kelvin, I tried to fixed output from my quad to the multichannel analogue input of my Onkyo and it doesn't sound very good, well nowhere near as good as using either the optical input or analogue input marked 'CD' on the Onkyo.Worth a try though!

[Nic Rhodes]

Originally Posted by indus

Thanks Nic but you've lost me a bit, my technical knowledge is poor. Are you saying you have tried both speaker switches and line level switches and found the former to be worse?

yes and they were more difficult to both build and buy off the shelf as well as being more money.

[indus]

Hi Nic, I'm still a bit confused by your set up. One of your posts says you use switch boxes, another says they are bad, another says xlr is best, another says they are not necessary.

Could you be kind enough to explain exactly how you have set things up?

Thanks

[Nic Rhodes]

I am not sure why you are so mixed up but for summary.

I use switch boxes, in fact many of them as they allow me to test kit. All switch boxes degrade signals, especially analogue ones. The best ones are XLR based, then RCA and finally speaker level switching. The line level boxes are MUCH better than the speaker switching boxes. There are other alternatives as well like AV bypass on stereo amps which also work fine but I use switching boxes.

[indus]

Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes

I am not sure why you are so mixed up but for summary.

I use switch boxes, in fact many of them as they allow me to test kit. All switch boxes degrade signals, especially analogue ones. The best ones are XLR based, then RCA and finally speaker level switching. The line level boxes are MUCH better than the speaker switching boxes. There are other alternatives as well like AV bypass on stereo amps which also work fine but I use switching boxes.

Thanks, its clearer now. I don't have av bypass on my quad cdp2 (used as pre). Also I don't think my 875 has xlr connections and the quad obviously doesn't so that's out if the question as well.

[Godfather]

I've been using a line level switch box to separate/combine my AV and 2 channel systems for a couple of years now. AV sources are connected to my Onkyo 886 which connects via a XLR switch box to my Lyngdorf poweramp which drives the stereo speakers. For music, my CD transport and DAC (with volume control) are connected via the switch box to the same poweramp. It's very simple to use and there is no audible degradation compared with a direct connection.

[indus]

Originally Posted by Godfather

I've been using a line level switch box to separate/combine my AV and 2 channel systems for a couple of years now. AV sources are connected to my Onkyo 886 which connects via a XLR switch box to my Lyngdorf poweramp which drives the stereo speakers. For music, my CD transport and DAC (with volume control) are connected via the switch box to the same poweramp. It's very simple to use and there is no audible degradation compared with a direct connection.

Hi godfather, I've never used xlr connections so excuse what maybe very basic questions.

1) You've used xlr L and R channel preouts from 886 into the xlr switchbox, correct? When it then connects to your poweramp, these are just normal analogue outputs that all poweramps can take?

2) You have your cd connected into this same switchbox correct? That's not by xlr connections is it? Is it just normal analogue connections from your cd/dac?

3) Could you tell me the make of your xlr switchbox?

Sorry once again if my questions sound silly its just that I've never used xlr connections or an xlr switchbox.

Thanks for your help.

[Godfather]

Originally Posted by indus

Hi godfather, I've never used xlr connections so excuse what maybe very basic questions.

1) You've used xlr L and R channel preouts from 886 into the xlr switchbox, correct? When it then connects to your poweramp, these are just normal analogue outputs that all poweramps can take?

2) You have your cd connected into this same switchbox correct? That's not by xlr connections is it? Is it just normal analogue connections from your cd/dac?

3) Could you tell me the make of your xlr switchbox?

Sorry once again if my questions sound silly its just that I've never used xlr connections or an xlr switchbox.

Thanks for your help.

Hi indus,

1. Yes, I use the XLR L and R preouts from the 886 into my XLR box. This connects to my poweramp via a pair of XLR cables.

2. My CD/DAC also has XLR outputs so they're connected to another set of inputs on the XLR switchbox.

3. It's a Kramer switch with 4 pairs of XLR inputs and 1 pair of XLR outputs.

Since none of your equipment have XLR connectors, you should look for a switchbox with RCA (also called phono) connectors. The Sonance unit you linked to earlier should do the job well.

[indus]

Originally Posted by Godfather

Hi indus,

1. Yes, I use the XLR L and R preouts from the 886 into my XLR box. This connects to my poweramp via a pair of XLR cables.

2. My CD/DAC also has XLR outputs so they're connected to another set of inputs on the XLR switchbox.

3. It's a Kramer switch with 4 pairs of XLR inputs and 1 pair of XLR outputs.

Since none of your equipment have XLR connectors, you should look for a switchbox with RCA (also called phono) connectors. The Sonance unit you linked to earlier should do the job well.

That's a real shame since XLR seems to work the best. I was going to upgrade the avr anyway and could have got something with XLR preouts. Neither my amp or cd have XLR so its still a no go. Must say I've never noticed poweramps to have XLR, are they just on very high end ones? Also does that mean your speakers have XLR inputs?

Btw, how are you finding the 886? I'm looking at that or the 5507.

[Godfather]

Originally Posted by indus

That's a real shame since XLR seems to work the best. I was going to upgrade the avr anyway and could have got something with XLR preouts. Neither my amp or cd have XLR so its still a no go. Must say I've never noticed poweramps to have XLR, are they just on very high end ones? Also does that mean your speakers have XLR inputs?

Btw, how are you finding the 886? I'm looking at that or the 5507.

It tends to be the higher end amps that have XLR inputs (as well as RCA). My amps are connected to the speakers via normal speaker cables. It's only active speakers (i.e. with amps onboard like Nic's Genelecs) that would have XLR inputs.

I wouldn't get hung up about XLR or the lack of them. Not all are equal and their presence doesn't guarantee quality. Some high end manufacturers don't use them at all. I use them because I can but there're far more important things.

I like the 886 very much. Haven't tried a 875 or 876 though for comparison.

[indus]

Thanks for your help.

[indus]

Could anybody tell me whether I can still biamp using one of these line level switches?

CyberSelect | Sonance AL2 automatic line level switch

I will be using my 875 for now, probably upgraded soon to Onkyo 5507. With these the front L and R are used to drive HF and surround back L and R for LF of the front two speakers.

Will this work with the line level switch?

Thanks

[IWC Dopplel]

Originally Posted by indus

That's a real shame since XLR seems to work the best. I was going to upgrade the avr anyway and could have got something with XLR preouts. Neither my amp or cd have XLR so its still a no go. Must say I've never noticed poweramps to have XLR, are they just on very high end ones? Also does that mean your speakers have XLR inputs?

Btw, how are you finding the 886? I'm looking at that or the 5507.

Don't forget if you are not using balanced connections which you won't be then the benefit of XLR is the connector quality and not wiring configuration. Buy phono's like Nutrik Profi and you will find they are sonically better than cheap alternatives.

[indus]

Originally Posted by IWC Dopplel

Don't forget if you are not using balanced connections which you won't be then the benefit of XLR is the connector quality and not wiring configuration. Buy phono's like Nutrik Profi and you will find they are sonically better than cheap alternatives.

Thanks.

I'm still trying to figure out how I use something like the line level switch and biamp.

[Godfather]

Originally Posted by indus

Thanks.

I'm still trying to figure out how I use something like the line level switch and biamp.

This is how I would biamp with a switch (which has two pairs of inputs and one pair of outputs): set the Onkyo 875/886/5507 to single amp mode and use only its front L and R preouts into the switch. Your stereo preamp goes into the other set of inputs of the switch.

The switch only has one L and one R output, so to be biamp you need to use two Y-adaptors to double the connectors to two L and two R. Now connect the two L outputs to one stereo poweramp (e.g. your Quad 909) to drive the HF and LF of your left speaker, and the two R outputs to another identical poweramp to drive the right speaker.

Why not try single amping first to see how you get on before messing about with biamping?

[indus]

Originally Posted by Godfather

This is how I would biamp with a switch (which has two pairs of inputs and one pair of outputs): set the Onkyo 875/886/5507 to single amp mode and use only its front L and R preouts into the switch. Your stereo preamp goes into the other set of inputs of the switch.

The switch only has one L and one R output, so to be biamp you need to use two Y-adaptors to double the connectors to two L and two R. Now connect the two L outputs to one stereo poweramp (e.g. your Quad 909) to drive the HF and LF of your left speaker, and the two R outputs to another identical poweramp to drive the right speaker.

Why not try single amping first to see how you get on before messing about with biamping?

Thanks, that makes complete sense

It may seem as they I was getting ahead of myself, but there was some reasoning behind it. I'm thinking of upgrading quite a few different things at the same time ie going dedicated pro, buying more poweramps, upgrading my speakers.
I just needed to know that biamping was possible like this, so I can persevere with quad amps, rather than switching over to something more powerful right now.

Anyway, I will try the line level switch with one amp first, if sq is poor then obviously I won't go to try biamp. It will mean though that I might need a more expensive processor, with better analogue stages to satisfy my 2ch stereo needs.

Thanks again

[Godfather]

Originally Posted by indus

Anyway, I will try the line level switch with one amp first, if sq is poor then obviously I won't go to try biamp. It will mean though that I might need a more expensive processor, with better analogue stages to satisfy my 2ch stereo needs.

Thanks again

You're welcome. How do you like the sound of your Quad CD/pre/poweramp and Monitor Audios? If you like it then adding a (decent) switch isn't going to change that. Personally I wouldn't spend thousands on a processor for better music performance as even the best processors around e.g. Arcam AV888 are probably compromised in that department compared to most high end stereo kit. Another personal opinion: the Quad 909 is a pretty decent amp and I would consider a change of speakers to be the next potential step up (rather than biamping).