[Nic Miller]

Hi guys

My current setup is an Arcam P7 power amp and I am using a Sony V555-ES (think that's the model) as a processor, but feel the Sony struggles a bit and it's a bit old now with no HDMI, lip sync, or HD sound decoding.

I would like to partner my P7 with a suitable HD decoding processor but am not prepared to pay £4,500 for the Arcam AV888. Are there any other suitable processors around the £2,500 mark? I thought about the Arcam AVR600 but that seems like a waste of the money that has gone into it in respect of the power amp stage.

I only need the amp for the sound side of things and my video processing will be done in my Lumagen. Just want some decent HD sound as am thinking about a blue ray player - probably the Oppo831 unless anyone can give a good reason for another player.

My speakers are Monitor Audio Gold signature, subwoofer SVS PB13 Ultra. My room is 4m x 8m - long and thin. TV and fronts 1 metre from front wall, I sit 4m from the screen, rear speakers 3m behind me. 7.1 system

Many thanks

Nic

[Welwynnick]

One of the obvious solutions would be the Marantz AV8003.

But would you consider importing?

Whereabouts are you?

Nick

[Nic Miller]

Based in Burton Upon Trent.

cheers

[Nic Miller]

Not come across the Marantz - not been purchasing or keeping up to date recently - is it any good? It's not a brand I am naturally drawn to I have to say, but performance is what counts.

Anything else on the horizon?

[Berties]

Or you could use the Oppo's decoding into the 5.1 input of av pre-amp. That's what I'm doing with Lexicon.

[Nic Miller]

That's always an option, but current amp is old and not ideal. It's only 6.1, no lip sync etc using the anologue route also bypasses any eq/ setup in amp etc and have also heard the sound is more pedestrian and lightweight. Also 7 decent cables are likely to set me back £350!

Any other options out there?

Thanks

[Berties]

5.1 bypass is good, no extra processing. I paid £58 for six RCA cables, Mark Grant. If you want a HD decoding pre-amp you're looking around £1000/£2000 if not more.

Onkyo have one, but I'd rather have a higher end older pre-amp with Oppo BD player.

You should be able to get a Lexicon MC-12 V5 EQ for £2500 with mic kit, that has 5.1 RCA input. You can bypass it or digitise it for the room EQ.

[Nic Miller]

Seems like a sideways move to me. I have an amp that will take the analogue signal - maybe not in the same league as the lexicon etc, so my next upgrade is to get an HD decoding amp. There just seems nothing out there which is annoying! Help!

[Mark.Yudkin]

In addition to the Marantz AV8003, the Onkyo PR-SC886 or PR-SC5507 may fit your bill.

If your BD player has onboard decoding, the Audiolab 8000AP would be worth considering (it supports LPCM over HDMI). However, it won't fit the bill if you're using a legacy or entry-level BD player that requires decoding in the processor (as per your post).

[Berties]

I really wouldn't get panties in a twist for hd decoding on the pre amp side, at best look into one that'll accept 7.1 multi-channel LPCM over HDMI for example Audiolab 8000AP. That way all the pre-amp is doing is acting as a 8 channel DAC and pre-amp, no HD decoding being done.

If you want a onboard decoding then either the Onkyo but probably a downgrade in sound quality over a older, higher end av pre-amp with RCA 7.1 input (then use Oppo)

[Nic Miller]

Too much to consider! Will defo purchase the oppo 831 bd player. Is the audio lab the best bet for HD sound? Will it be better than the marantz? It is relatively cheap! More importantly is it better than my current Sony?

What is lpcm over hdmi? Is this better than analogue?

Many thanks!

Nic

[Berties]

LPCM is lossless uncompressed digital audio, basically like several coaxial feeds from DVD player for each channel when playing CD's. So your av pre-amp then converts this to analogue and sends to the 8 channel pre-amp.

As to whether what's best, HDMI to a HD decoding amp/supporting LPCM, or RCA 5.1 out from your unit hard to say. Too many variables, but I guess if the av pre-amp has higher quality DAC, more advanced bass management, room EQ then best to use HDMI digital audio. But presently all good av pre-amps are very expensive- the Audiolab 8000AP is a bit lacking on inputs. But I don't need anything like Onyko pre-amp connectivity.

[Nic Miller]

So the oppo could send an HD audio signal of 7.1 lpcm over hdmi to the audio lab which just converts to analogue and I get HD sound? What would be the downside to this compared to an amp that decodes HD?

Any other alternatives to audiolab if I go down this route?

Thanks

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by Nic Miller

So the oppo could send an HD audio signal of 7.1 lpcm over hdmi to the audio lab which just converts to analogue and I get HD sound? What would be the downside to this compared to an amp that decodes HD?

Any other alternatives to audiolab if I go down this route?

HD processors are a minefield with no ideal solution as yet.

An LPCM digital audio connection, especially over HDMI, is vulnerable to jitter at system level. This will degrade sound quality compared to a system with better jitter control. The level of vulnerability will depend on the digital audio performance of both the player and the processor.

For something like an Arcam AV888, I wouldn't expect this to be a problem (but then that does HD decoding anyway, which avoids the problem). The Audiolab was measured by HiFiNews as having higher jitter over HDMI (with LPCM), which suggests that it will be susceptible to jitter from the player.

A good player like the Sony S5000, Denon 3800BD or Pioneer 91LX will help to minimise this problem, but then they will probably sound better with analogue connections anyway, which defeats the point again.

The Marantz AV8003 that I recommended probably sounds the best of the reasonably priced processors, but it can't do room EQ and HD codec decoding at the same time.

The Arcam AV888 and Denon AVP-A1 do everything importatn, and do it well, but are expensive.

The Onkyo's do everything, but don't sound as good.

Round and round in circles, with no-where to stop....

Nick

[Nic Miller]

So by saying 'good player' are you saying the Oppo 831 isn't a good player and I should also reconsider this option? Everything I have read about this player says it's awesome!

Really confused about my pre-amp options now!

[Berties]

That's why I just bought a Lexicon MC-8, great standard Dolby Digital & DTS with Logic-7, then 5.1 RCA bypass for HD offboard decoding with the Oppo. Sounds great for both.

[MI55ION]

Nic Miller,

If you're really after a HD decoding processor at around £2k, now is really not an ideal time to buy. As mentioned there are some available from Marantz and Rotel but if these don't apeal to you it may be worth hanging on to see what new models are introduced next year (be prepared to wait longer!). Nad, Parasound, Emotiva amongst others are expected to join the market by then. BTW, I wouldn't call upgrading the Sony to a legacy processor like the Lexicon or Arcam a sideway step, partnered with a suitable disc spinner it will be a giant leap in terms of audio quality. Of course, if you are after all the latest features then that's of no use.

[Nic Miller]

Looks like I'm a bit stuck!

So how would the Audiolab 8000AP compare to the Arcam AV9 and Lexicon MC12 v my old sony v the marantz? Like the idea of the audiolab as the price point makes it a viable stopgap. Not found these mythical AV9's for under £1k that people talk about! The marantz you would have thought would be good for £2k - but looks cheap!

All I want is to play HD sound plus get a bonus that normal sound will be an improvement over my sony - 99.9% movies and TV.

Many thanks and apologies for all the questions that people have probably been asking for months!

Nic

[Mr_Orange]

It would compare very favourably, and you may well find that it is not just a stopgap, but that it becomes a permanent feature in your system.

Feature-wise it is more comprehensive than the AV9 and MC12, in that it handles HD-audio in addition to all the legacy features. It doesn't have room EQ, but then nor does the AV9 and you'd need a V5 EQ MC12.

I imagine it will blow your old Sony out of the water, period. Can't say anything definite about the Marantz.

You could also look around for a Lexicon MC12HD, which coupled with the upcoming firmware update (currently in beta and free of charge when released), will give you the same HD audio capability as the Audiolab, i.e. 7.1 LCPM over HDMI, but probably at a greater cost, even second hand.

HTH.

[Nic Miller]

I wasn't aware the 8000AP could handle any HD audio and that the player had to do all the processing. Or do you mean it can accept 7.1 LPCM over HDMI ?

Maybe I need to read up on all this HD lingo!

So if I get it right I can get the Oppo 831 (I assume this is still flavour of the month?) to output 7.1 LPCM over HDMI to the audiolab - this is a digital signal which the audiolab can then mess around with re bass management, DSP etc? it then uses it's internal DAC to convert to analogue for onward passage to the power amp as 7 channel HD audio? Plus I have the option of 5.1 analgue bypass? If that is the case and it is such a big step up in performance from my Sony surely it is a no brainer for such a cheap price? Or would the lexicon be hugely better again?

Many thanks

Nic

[Berties]

btw the 831 is the cheaper model, the US import player has alu. front panel, 831 is plastic.

As to whether which is better Audiolab or Lexicon not sure but Lexicon has Logic 7 which is a bonus for all other types of surround material. The idea behind LPCM over HDMI is a good one, it's down to the passthrough/digital dection, basically Oppo analogue output to Audiolab DAC section

[MI55ION]

Originally Posted by Nic Miller

I wasn't aware the 8000AP could handle any HD audio and that the player had to do all the processing. Or do you mean it can accept 7.1 LPCM over HDMI ?

Maybe I need to read up on all this HD lingo!

So if I get it right I can get the Oppo 831 (I assume this is still flavour of the month?) to output 7.1 LPCM over HDMI to the audiolab - this is a digital signal which the audiolab can then mess around with re bass management, DSP etc? it then uses it's internal DAC to convert to analogue for onward passage to the power amp as 7 channel HD audio? Plus I have the option of 5.1 analgue bypass? If that is the case and it is such a big step up in performance from my Sony surely it is a no brainer for such a cheap price? Or would the lexicon be hugely better again?

Many thanks

Nic

You're right, it handles HD audio perfectly via HDMI.

Go with the audiolab.

[Mr_Orange]

Originally Posted by Nic Miller

I wasn't aware the 8000AP could handle any HD audio and that the player had to do all the processing. Or do you mean it can accept 7.1 LPCM over HDMI ?

Yes, that is what it was designed to do.

Originally Posted by Nic Miller

Maybe I need to read up on all this HD lingo!

Maybe .

Originally Posted by Nic Miller

So if I get it right I can get the Oppo 831 (I assume this is still flavour of the month?) to output 7.1 LPCM over HDMI to the audiolab - this is a digital signal which the audiolab can then mess around with re bass management, DSP etc? it then uses it's internal DAC to convert to analogue for onward passage to the power amp as 7 channel HD audio? Plus I have the option of 5.1 analgue bypass? If that is the case and it is such a big step up in performance from my Sony surely it is a no brainer for such a cheap price?

Yes, exactly.

Originally Posted by Nic Miller

Or would the lexicon be hugely better again?

Sorry, don't know.

[eaglemmoomin]

NAD and Rotel make HD audio processors/preamps also.

So you have Onkyo, Marantz, NAD, Rotel and Audiolab in your price range I don't think thats a bad selection my self. The Audilab is LPCM only but the others support bitstream (ie the player does'nt decode the audio the processor does).

You know I'm not convinced about the question about jitter over HDMI. Jitter thats 10s of f'all compared to jitter of 100s of f'all is still absolutely neglible and is nice way of making you pay extra buckets of money for 'piece of mind'. Also if the data is carried to the amp in packetised form and its checksumed/CRC'd then I'm at a loss to understand how the jitter is really going to effect it anyway. What frequency was the jitter that hifi news recorded at?

[Welwynnick]

Anyone who doesn't believe in jitter or amplifier decoding should come round my place and I will demostrate the difference. Most people can hear it, though there are some professional reviewers who say they can't, so I ignore everything they say. The difference between LPCM over HDMI from my LG and from my Denon is night and day.

Nick

[eaglemmoomin]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Anyone who doesn't believe in jitter or amplifier decoding should come round my place and I will demostrate the difference. Most people can hear it, though there are some professional reviewers who say they can't, so I ignore everything they say. The difference between LPCM over HDMI from my LG and from my Denon is night and day.

Nick

We can go either way with this. We could say that jitter is causing issues over HDMI or we could point that the decoding is being performed by two different processors in two different pieces of kit. Can we prove that one implementation of the decoding algortihms is exactly the same as another. Without breaking out Mathcad and the putting the exact same set of data and putting it through both implementations of the algorithms we can't. It really depends which part of the frequency spectrum the jitter is in and the magnitude of it. You can't just say jitter bad.

[IRobot]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

The Onkyo's do everything, but don't sound as good.

Nick

I'm in the same position as the OP, even have the same kit, P7 and Oppo. I'd also like to replace my avr with a dedicated pre/pro. Would the Onkyo 5507 be a bad choice for great sound quality ? All my inputs would be digital.

Steve

[Nic Rhodes]

If it was my money, I would hold off buy any new pro atm, and many of us want to. All are compromised atm, with many not even hitting average need for number of HDMI sockets for many people!

re jitter don't forget many of these processors are still dealing with multiples of thousands on jitter on their inputs, not 10s or 100s.

[Mark.Yudkin]

Since we live in different countries, I can't come round to listen to the test and more importantly, I can't come around to measure the level of jitter being emitted on the HDMI by the specific source when transmitting LPCM / bitstreaming. It may well be the case that the specific player introduces greater levels of jitter when carrying out more processing internally.

What I can do is point you to the HDMI 1.3a Specification, chapter 7.2.4, which does not lend credence to any claim that bitstreaming has inherently lower jitter or that jitter is then a function of the sink.

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by Mark.Yudkin

What I can do is point you to the HDMI 1.3a Specification, chapter 7.2.4, which does not lend credence to any claim that bitstreaming has inherently lower jitter or that jitter is then a function of the sink.

Thats the crux of the matter for me - I think it does implicitly. The processes described there relate to LPCM audio, because they describe how the audio clock is transferred. It does say as much, but its got to LPCM because bitstream doesn't carry a clock - its effectively just data. For legacy codecs like DD & DTS, the clock is generated in the decoder/receiver/amplifier, which is where the DAC is. Thats ideal, because there's little the player can do generate jitter to spoil the party. Of course I don't believe there is any reason why bitstream couldn't use the same clock regeneration process that is described by HDMI, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that - you'd have the worst of all worlds.

The crucial thing is whether DTrueHD and DTS MA are implemented the same way, or whether they use the video clock decimation or PLL procesess described in the HDMI spec that the source HAS to support and which the sink MAY support. I can't find any evidence anywhere to say how manufacturers do it, and I can't say I'm that surprised - they may want to keep it to themselves. I think its pretty obvious though. Bitstreaming DOES sound better with blind, level-matched comparisons on Onkyo equipment - and many others. I don't know whether this applies to all equipment, but it does seem to be the rule, rather than the exception.

But there are two issues here - one is the system-level susceptibility to LPCM jitter over HDMI, where the source and the sink both contribute to it, and the other is the ability to side-step the problem by using bitstream. My experience of the latest equipment is that:

• Onkyos sound good with bitstream, but depend on the quality of the source with LPCM.
• Arcams sound good with both, but are more expensive.
• Audiolab doesn't process bitstream, but it is also susceptible to LPCM jitter form the source.

Nick