[KhalJimbo]

Hi All

I am hoping to get the Denon 4310 and a BD3800 or BD2010. One thing I find myself thinking of is it better to set the BD to decode the audio and send it as LPCM over the Analog outs (I think thats it) or to set it to Bitstream to the amp and let the amp do the decoding.

What are the pros and cons of each way? I know converting it to the analogue outs is a bit messier cable wise but is there a sound quality difference? Currently I dont have the set up so I cant actually test it for myself and see, so just want to get the general feeling for it here.

EDIT: Oops, wrong section, can a mod please move this to the AV Recievers section? Or should that be the Blu Ray player section?

[lbstyling]

i know where your coming from- the problem is that it depends far too much on the equipment used to give you a definatative answer- take a look a couple of threads down at the shootout thread- this says alot.

the details need to be right- for example, if you went with the lexicon mc-12, you need to get the settings right in the processor to access the good stuff.

theres many arguements for and against going analogue -personally i think you need to hear it and judge. its just that simple.

one thing thats moved me away form analogue out is that i cant set the distances for the left/right front speakers to be different from the center in the player.

this is a problem for me in my room as my center is about 2m further away from me than the l/r.

not what you wanted to hear im sure -but i hope it helps!

[KhalJimbo]

Originally Posted by lbstyling

i know where your coming from- the problem is that it depends far too much on the equipment used to give you a definatative answer- take a look a couple of threads down at the shootout thread- this says alot.

the details need to be right- for example, if you went with the lexicon mc-12, you need to get the settings right in the processor to access the good stuff.

theres many arguements for and against going analogue -personally i think you need to hear it and judge. its just that simple.

one thing thats moved me away form analogue out is that i cant set the distances for the left/right front speakers to be different from the center in the player.

this is a problem for me in my room as my center is about 2m further away from me than the l/r.

not what you wanted to hear im sure -but i hope it helps!

I'm just trying to really decide still, I always come on here asking a question about should I go the pro\power set up or stay with an AVR (hence me saying i am thinking of the AVR 4310\3810)

I know that processors with HDMI are still quite expensive (not out of my budget, just not what I'm willing to pay if its not a dedicated room) but am still wondering if I can send LPCM over Analouge out then I can do it. I currently have a Denon 1909 amp but really wanting something bigger and better. Hence me always coming back to the Pro\Power route. If going analog audio is worth it then I think I can, but if its better to HDMI Audio then I think I'll stick with an AVR. I just cant make up my mind.

[paulst10]

Would you still like this moved to receivers ?

[Mark.Yudkin]

One thing I find myself thinking of is it better to set the BD to decode the audio and send it as LPCM over the Analog outs (I think thats it) or to set it to Bitstream to the amp and let the amp do the decoding.

First off, just to be pedantic since it's very important, you do not send LPCM over analogue - LPCM is a digital format that is obtained from the decoding phase, it is not the output of the digital-analogue conversion. When using analogue connetions, the player is doing all the work - and few players have the full functionality. The result is that analogue is usually a poor choice, but it can be a sensible compromise when you've spent a lot of money on quality audio equipment that you need to amortize, whilst wanting BD in the meantime.

The best thing to do is let the BD decode the audio and send it as LPCM over HDMI to the amp / receiver for subsequent processing (bass management, distances, room correction, etc) and conversion to analogue. Converting to analogue in the player means that the player needs to have the full function of the amp / receiver, but none do. Conversely, sending the undecoded audio (bitstream) means sacrificing audio functionality with no improvement in audio performance (but you do gain a shiny little light on the receiver).

[KhalJimbo]

Originally Posted by paulst10

Would you still like this moved to receivers ?

No thanks, I seem to have gotten my answer irrespective of if I go for a Pro\Power set up or an AVR.

Originally Posted by Mark.Yudkin

First off, just to be pedantic since it's very important, you do not send LPCM over analogue - LPCM is a digital format that is obtained from the decoding phase, it is not the output of the digital-analogue conversion. When using analogue connetions, the player is doing all the work - and few players have the full functionality. The result is that analogue is usually a poor choice, but it can be a sensible compromise when you've spent a lot of money on quality audio equipment that you need to amortize, whilst wanting BD in the meantime.

The best thing to do is let the BD decode the audio and send it as LPCM over HDMI to the amp / receiver for subsequent processing (bass management, distances, room correction, etc) and conversion to analogue. Converting to analogue in the player means that the player needs to have the full function of the amp / receiver, but none do. Conversely, sending the undecoded audio (bitstream) means sacrificing audio functionality with no improvement in audio performance (but you do gain a shiny little light on the receiver).

Thanks Mark, answered all my questions there once again it looks like the AVR would be best suited to my needs for now (I think I can finally stop asking on here if should go AVR or not )

Looks like I'll go for 4310 from Denon as doing some reading on it when I do deside go the route of Pro\Power I can use this as my processor.

[mephistophelean]

Originally Posted by Mark.Yudkin

First off, just to be pedantic since it's very important, you do not send LPCM over analogue - LPCM is a digital format that is obtained from the decoding phase, it is not the output of the digital-analogue conversion. When using analogue connetions, the player is doing all the work - and few players have the full functionality. The result is that analogue is usually a poor choice, but it can be a sensible compromise when you've spent a lot of money on quality audio equipment that you need to amortize, whilst wanting BD in the meantime.

The best thing to do is let the BD decode the audio and send it as LPCM over HDMI to the amp / receiver for subsequent processing (bass management, distances, room correction, etc) and conversion to analogue. Converting to analogue in the player means that the player needs to have the full function of the amp / receiver, but none do. Conversely, sending the undecoded audio (bitstream) means sacrificing audio functionality with no improvement in audio performance (but you do gain a shiny little light on the receiver).

Mark - it would appear as though the Denon BD 3800 does everything you indicate through analogue outs except room correction. For those of us that don't want/like room correction, it would appear as though there are options for us.

[Mark.Yudkin]

I too have stared at the BD-3800, downloaded the manual, and even tried to convince my wife, but at EUR 1,999 list price, I'm not going to get permission. OTOH, permission to replace the Arcam AV9 with an AV888, Anthem Statement D2v or comparable processor is even less likely.

[As well as room correction, you also don't get THX and 5.1 -> 7.1 expansion]

[mephistophelean]

Originally Posted by Mark.Yudkin

I too have stared at the BD-3800, downloaded the manual, and even tried to convince my wife, but at EUR 1,999 list price, I'm not going to get permission. OTOH, permission to replace the Arcam AV9 with an AV888, Anthem Statement D2v or comparable processor is even less likely.

[As well as room correction, you also don't get THX and 5.1 -> 7.1 expansion]

Mark

Agree on the expansion - fortunately I only have 5.1 so not an issue. In the UK the Denon is retailing for £799. Are similar deals not available in Switzerland? The only other thought is potentially the Oppo but again you won't get THX or 5.1 to 7.1 expansion.

[MI55ION]

Originally Posted by Mark.Yudkin

I too have stared at the BD-3800, downloaded the manual, and even tried to convince my wife, but at EUR 1,999 list price, I'm not going to get permission. OTOH, permission to replace the Arcam AV9 with an AV888, Anthem Statement D2v or comparable processor is even less likely.

[As well as room correction, you also don't get THX and 5.1 -> 7.1 expansion]

Another option that seem to get overlooked in favour of lossless HD audio is HD audio re-encode (high bitrate audio at 1.5mbps). Before splashing out on a new processor or even the ultimate and yet non-existent BR player, I strongly urge you or anybody else in a similar situation to try a player that supports HD audio re-encode (LG and Samsung players are good in this area) to your legacy processor. The jump in quality from SD audio to high bit-rate is significant and one 'may' even be hard pressed to distinguish it from true lossless audio. Better yet you are able to take full advantage of the processor's DSPs, bass management and DACs. Now before anybody laughs I'm not suggesting that LG and Samsung players offer the best solution here, indeed I would have liked to see high quality re-encode solution from Denon and Pioneer however I think that might have been counter productive from a business point of view. Anyway Oppo 83 also appears to have this feature however from what I understand although it re-encodes Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master, it does not (yet) do PCM. I've sent them an email requesting further info and whether a fix may be available in the future, I'm waiting...

As for analogue from the Denon 3800, it's warm and full fat but my gripe is it lacks the excitement of the AV9's DACs when using SPDIF. I've tried HD-rencode from the wife's ahem.. Curtis BR player... and I'm ashamed to say it sounded brilliant as did a Samsung 1600 that I had briefly. Now if only I get a favourable response from Oppo I could retire the Denon for good (subject of course to a final comparison).

[crobo]

Interesting point. I have always avoided Samsung and LG because I read bad things about early models, but this has me wondering. HD-DVDS sound wonderful over SPDIF because the XA1 does exactly this. Which Samsungs do this BTW - all of them?

So with a legacy processor, which would give better audio over SPDIF, does anyone know whether a Samsung model will give a real improvement over a mid-range Pioneer like the one I have?

[crobo]

To comment on the OP's original query, I owned a few Denon receivers before moving to pre-powers and would be pretty certain that movies would sound better with a good legacy processor (eg AV9 or MC12), and something like a Denon 3800. I'd be even more sure that music would sound a lot better.

[paulst10]

Originally Posted by MI55ION

Another option that seem to get overlooked in favour of lossless HD audio is HD audio re-encode (high bitrate audio at 1.5mbps). Before splashing out on a new processor or even the ultimate and yet non-existent BR player, I strongly urge you or anybody else in a similar situation to try a player that supports HD audio re-encode (LG and Samsung players are good in this area) to your legacy processor. The jump in quality from SD audio to high bit-rate is significant and one 'may' even be hard pressed to distinguish it from true lossless audio. Better yet you are able to take full advantage of the processor's DSPs, bass management and DACs. Now before anybody laughs I'm not suggesting that LG and Samsung players offer the best solution here, indeed I would have liked to see high quality re-encode solution from Denon and Pioneer however I think that might have been counter productive from a business point of view.

Totally agree with this, the optical re-encode is quite superb and is the only reason I keep my Samsung 1500 .. well and the fact I use my 1500 connected HDMI direct to the screen so I can watch the documentaries etc! without having to turn my amps on

Originally Posted by crobo

Which Samsungs do this BTW - all of them?

From the 1500 upwards

[Mark.Yudkin]

There's also another attitude to the whole issue that can be taken. The "ideal" player is anyway not available and will probably take a couple of years to appear (and at sensible price), so it's may be sensible just to wait. OTOH, the disks - not the electronics - are the important thing, as in the end when looking around the room it's the collection that is where the money has gone. As with CD, where I bought my first player at launch, or DVD where I waited a little but then bought a cheap Pioneer as a stop-gap, for many, all that is really needed is a cheapish BD player with a decent (1080p24) picture, support for legacy sound formats (DD and dts) being mandatory. This permits the library to be collected in the BD format rather than DVD, at least where available. A couple of years down the road the player can be replaced, and the disks rewatched and listened to in all their glory.

[MI55ION]

Originally Posted by crobo

Interesting point. I have always avoided Samsung and LG because I read bad things about early models, but this has me wondering. HD-DVDS sound wonderful over SPDIF because the XA1 does exactly this. Which Samsungs do this BTW - all of them?

So with a legacy processor, which would give better audio over SPDIF, does anyone know whether a Samsung model will give a real improvement over a mid-range Pioneer like the one I have?

Not sure about the pioneer you have but what I heard from the Curtis/Samsung players certainly put a smile on my face, to my ears these players at 1.5mbps had an unquestionable edge over the Denon's 640kbps output, as close enough to lossless audio as you could get without it actually being lossless audio I would say.

Mark, I think you may be on to something there. The ideal blu-ray player here would have exceptional analogue performance (DACs, Bass management, flexibility etc) to rival that of dedicated processors, however these are still a long way away from being both available and priced at what most would consider 'sensible'. What players there are at present (and soon to come) that meet this criteria to some extent or another are so pricey that I believe one would probably be better of to simply upgrade the processor. Now this goes back to the OPs question, given the choice what would sound better? Well all things being equal both the digital and analogue methods could sound just as good as each other however for there to be a level playing field here we are indeed talking about mega bucks. However on a 'sensible' budget, I would be inclined to say that the digital method in almost all cases will have the advantage.

[Mark.Yudkin]

Actually I wasn't thinking about the use of analogue output in an ideal player, as I fully accept that for audio processing you use an audio processor, and don't really see the point of having one in the player.

An example of a restriction I find problematic is the lack of support of on-board dts hd ma decoding during audio mixing on so many players. Here's a quote from the EUR 4,999 Denon DVD-A1UD manual (German version, page 33):

Wenn “Mix-Audio” eingestellt ist und DTS-HD-Audiosignale abgespielt werden, wird nur der DTS-Digital-Surround-Stream des DTS-HDAudiostream decodiert und ausgegeben.

My translation:

When “Mix-Audio” is selected and you play DTS-HD audio signals, only the core DTS digital surround stream of the DTS-HD audio stream wil be decoded and transmitted.

I really can't justify spending that sort of cash on a player with this sort of restriction, knowing that I'm only going to get upset and want to replace it after a couple of years, when full functional audio is standard on even entry level models.